Institutional abuse was "endemic".. - MERGED

getz

in any country that you have a one very dominant religion you will always get ,the christian/muslim faiths pulling strings ,and doing what ever they want to,without questions asked,as one irish minister said--i am a catholic first and a irishman second,-the irish independent newspaper in the uk -has a shocking headline

fastrac

This will take a long time to sink in for the die hards to accept

Nelson Muntz

The report also said that lay people & visitors engaged in abuse. There is no way that these people would have had the confidence to abuse kids if there was not an understanding that they would not have to fear being caught.

As far as people saying they know priests that are great people blah blah, no priest that abuses kids wears a badge that says they are a paedophile. The nature of paedophiles is that they are the most cunning of all criminals. Very few make it obvious the are dodgy.

There has clearly been a culture of abuse within the church. That is the only logical way to explain paedophile priests being protected by the higher-ups. The higher-ups were once priests working in these places also. I would say the coverups are not motivated just by fear of law suits but also by skeletons in the closet.

getz

Nelson Muntz wrote: »

The report also said that lay people & visitors engaged in abuse. There is no way that these people would have had the confidence to abuse kids if there was not an understanding that they would not have to fear being caught.

As far as people saying they know priests that are great people blah blah, no priest that abuses kids wears a badge that says they are a paedophile. The nature of paedophiles is that they are the most cunning of all criminals. Very few make it obvious the are dodgy.

There has clearly been a culture of abuse within the church. That is the only logical way to explain paedophile priests being protected by the higher-ups. The higher-ups were once priests working in these places also. I would say the coverups are not motivated just by fear of law suits but also by skeletons in the closet.

there certainly has -check out these fine gentlemen--alexander V1--gregory X11--paul 111---john X11 --innocent V11---clemont V11--benedict 1X--sixtus 111-john XX111--paul 11---john X111--sergius 111--anagleius--clement V1--pius 11---sixtus 1V--pope julius-111--urban 11- that is only for starters

Puddleduck

The majority of the posters on here have felt some emotion towards what happened. I want to know, what are we going to do about it? Todays generation shapes tomorrow. I am honestly sick of the sit back and watch what happens attitude of people today. As soon as I can find out exactly who to contact I will be writing a letter. Protests achieve nothing since todays generation have no interest in standing up to be counted. I wont be one of those people.

No one should be exempt from the law. Regardless of colour, creed or money. Fianna Fail have stated that it would be 'very hard' to change the agreement that was made with the Church. I couldnt give a fiddlers if its harder than egyptian algebra! Those that abused should be named and shamed. If it never makes it to court then those alive should be put on the sex offenders register.

getz

Puddleduck wrote: »

The majority of the posters on here have felt some emotion towards what happened. I want to know, what are we going to do about it? Todays generation shapes tomorrow. I am honestly sick of the sit back and watch what happens attitude of people today. As soon as I can find out exactly who to contact I will be writing a letter. Protests achieve nothing since todays generation have no interest in standing up to be counted. I wont be one of those people.

No one should be exempt from the law. Regardless of colour, creed or money. Fianna Fail have stated that it would be 'very hard' to change the agreement that was made with the Church. I couldnt give a fiddlers if its harder than egyptian algebra! Those that abused should be named and shamed. If it never makes it to court then those alive should be put on the sex offenders register.

in my opinion--the first positive post

fryup

the catholic church wasn't founded by St Peter thats just another one of their myths, it was created by a roman emperor > Emperor Constantine

http://www.roman-empire.net/decline/constantine-index.html

wake up people!!

mloc

The only real change will come when the Catholic Church is no longer viewed as the Catholic Church but as a Catholic Organisation, with workers, accounts and a hierarchy just like any other business. Once this happens we can look at real accountability. Dead or alive the individuals must be made accountable. There is a blindness to the fact that priests are people like anybody else, and just as accountable to their actions. It is shocking that the majority of compensation will be paid by the taxpayer, essentially the victims paying themselves. The church should be forced to hold an independent and totally open investigation into their own members with no limits to the charges and compensation that may be levied on them. If not, we must ask ourselves, why do we continue to defend an organisation that on the back of taxpayers money raped, abused and in some instances lead to the death of many, many children?

In any case, having mostly celebate men, many of them at the time perhaps not choosing the life of celebacy completely of their own free will or fully understanding the consequences, looking after vulnerable boys with no recourse in cases of injustice is utterly irresponsible.

luckat

Puddleduck wrote: »

As soon as I can find out exactly who to contact I will be writing a letter.

An open letter to the head of the Christian Brothers in Ireland, demanding that they sell all they own and give it to their victims? Send copies to the newspapers, and to the TDs and Ministers?

If it never makes it to court then those alive should be put on the sex offenders register.

Definitely.

One small point, though - we don't have a sex offenders register in Ireland.

Nodin

luckat wrote: »

One small point, though - we don't have a sex offenders register in Ireland.

We do, however, register sex offenders.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/justice/criminal-law/criminal-trial/sex-offenders-register

Covey

There is a scandal possibly worse than this and thats saying something.

For nigh on 15 years now we have by stealth set up a two tier legal system in this country and it has been done very effectively.

We have a legal system that applies to you and me and another that applies to the ruling classes in the country. They are only subject to tribunals, reports and agreements to subvert the law made amongst themselves. Now we have the legislature, the judiciary and the church hierarchy totally compliant in this process, to the total subversion of the written legal code.

The maximum penalties now for the ruling classes is the hassle of attending tribunals and possible embarrassment. It is almost impossible to prosecute them, fine them or in some cases even name them. It includes all types of crime up to and including rape and murder. Is there a country on this earth that operates like this?

Just to add some reality to the above I'm talking about Ireland and not Zimbabwe.

philologos

fryup wrote: »

point taken, but what i'm basically trying to say is, is that i hope that this is the wake up call that irish people need

maybe now they'll finally break the umbilical cord with the RC church for once and for all and we'll become a truly secular society

Right, but you are showing me that you don't understand what secularism actually means.

Secularism does not mean trying to get people to abandon their religion (in this case Catholicism) but it means to let Government operate independently of the Church authorities. I think this is reasonable.

By they'll I'm assuming you mean the people. The people abandoning religion has nothing to do with secularism at all.

For example in Turkey the country is officially secular, however 96% of the population claim to follow Islam.

mloc: Just because you are a church doesn't mean that you shouldn't be questioned and challenged. This is why I say that it is crucial for congregants to hold their priest or pastor accountable for what is said on the pulpit, and if they disagree with something, check it out for themselves in the Bible and if it doesn't hold up discuss with the pastor about it.

I agree with you on the celibacy front. It only takes a quick look into what actually happened in the 1st century church to see that married priests / pastors were encouraged:

1 Timothy 3:2 wrote:

Now a bishop must be above reproach, married only once, temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable, an apt teacher,

1 Timothy 3:12 wrote:

Let deacons be married only once, and let them manage their children and their households well;

Covey

Jakkass wrote: »

Right, but you are showing me that you don't understand what secularism actually means.

Secularism does not mean trying to get people to abandon their religion (in this case Catholicism) but it means to let Government operate independently of the Church authorities. I think this is reasonable.

By they'll I'm assuming you mean the people. The people abandoning religion has nothing to do with secularism at all.

For example in Turkey the country is officially secular, however 96% of the population claim to follow Islam.

Jackass, you've chosen to assume that no one including myself knows what secularism is, which is as you describe it, to let Government operate independently of the Church authorities.

I think thats being disingenuous to most who have posted here.

The reference to Turkey is really quite irrelevant as it far removed from Ireland, where support for the church is ebbing away, and very few if any elected politicians operate any sort of religious agenda, the last I can recall being Des Hanafin.

Advocating that the arms of the state should operate without recourse to or interference from the church, is what most posters on here are on about.

An individuals right to join and support a religion is not in question.

fryup

Jakkass wrote: »

Secularism does not mean trying to get people to abandon their religion (in this case Catholicism) but it means to let Government operate independently of the Church authorities. I think this is reasonable.

By they'll I'm assuming you mean the people. The people abandoning religion has nothing to do with secularism at all.

but do we really need religion in this day and age?? does it make you a better person???

afterall its given us nothing but trouble on this island

PS- on my travels throughtout the world i have met many people with no religion, atheists etc and they are alot nicer, agreeable, broadminded than the so called "christains" in this country

philologos

fryup wrote: »

but do we really need religion in this day and age?? does it make you a better person???

First question: Do we need religion in this day and age? - You could argue this from various different points of view. One could argue that you need religion for salvation, but that would be a religious argument for why we need religion. In a purely secular sense, we don't need religion. However religion can be beneficial and has been. The two main values we have taken from the religion we have adopted that have changed European life without a doubt are:

1) Justice - the principle of law and order that is clearly written in the Judaic scriptures. This understanding has given us a clear sense of fair trial, not interning. Innocent until proven guilty.

2) Mercy - the Christian attribute we have taken from the Gospel and applied it into our societies is mercy. We realise that we are all fallable beings, we realise that we can all mess up occasionally. We realise that people can change and that people deserve a second chance.

You may argue that we don't need religion for these two values, and I'd most likely agree with you, however these are two things that radically changed when Christian thought was introduced to European life.

Thinkers such as Allister McGrath have also remarked that there can be considerable health benefits over following a faith rather than not. I'd see it as more beneficial than we take it out to be.

Second question: Has religion made me a better person? - Absolutely, it's turned my viewpoints on some things upside down and it has made me more socially aware I would think. This is a very difficult question to answer however as you would need to have an active witness into my every day life and how I approach and act towards others to be able to truly tell if I am a transformed being through the knowledge of Jesus Christ. I personally would account for it having a change on my life, and people I knew both before and after my acceptance have acknowledged a change in me also.

fryup wrote: »

afterall its given us nothing but trouble on this island

That's a touch disingenous. Blaming the actions of a minority for the group in general isn't the way to deal with it. Christian values have shaped a lot of people for the good, perhaps you haven't seen it yet though. Some atheists have abused their power too as political leaders in Europe and the Far East in the 20th century, yet I don't blame them for atheism giving nothing but trouble in Europe and the Far East.

N.B - Generalising all religious groups based on a minority of priests and nuns within Catholicism isn't really a good way to deal with it either. Other Christian groups, and groups of other faiths have managed to co-exist in Ireland for decades.

fryup wrote: »

PS- on my travels throughtout the world i have met many people with no religion, atheists etc and they are alot nicer, agreeable, broadminded than the so called "christains" in this country

You're entitled to your opinion and I am entitled mine

Carrying on though. You are now advocating atheism rather than secularism. Secularism and atheism are two clearly different things.

I think the main point is trusting in your religious leaders too much. These are people too, they can make serious serious mistakes. I'd certainly encourage another look into Irish Christianity and accountability. This is certainly why a lot of these things happened.

mloc

Jakkass wrote: »

mloc: Just because you are a church doesn't mean that you shouldn't be questioned and challenged. This is why I say that it is crucial for congregants to hold their priest or pastor accountable for what is said on the pulpit, and if they disagree with something, check it out for themselves in the Bible and if it doesn't hold up discuss with the pastor about it.

I disagree. Congregants and the bible have no relevance here. Citizens and the law do, and that is what priests are; citizens, bound by the law like anyone else. The church has done enough to cover up its own mistakes and put the cost on the taxpayer.

philologos

Of course, I agree with that much too. Everyone is subject to the State and everyone should be subjecct to the State. I've said that much in my beginning posts on this thread. We also need to be vigilent against abuse in the Church, and the way to do that most effectively is to keep people true to what they are meant to be preaching.

mloc

I would say the way to do that most effectively is more transparancy, accountability and removal of all special privilages for religious groups in the country.

If you treat a religious group like any other organisation, which is the only logical situation, you will avoid this grossly disturbing walking-on-eggshells approach the government takes with the Catholic Church.

Nelson Muntz

Firstly, I am not religious at all but I think it is wrong to blame religion for what the catholic church has done.

Religion has always been a convenient cover for wars based on greed & ignorance.

There is no need for anyone that wants a relationship with god ever set foot inside a church. Read the bible yourself & build your own interpretation.

The catholic church has been proven to be a vile & corrupt organisation over & over.

Mr.Lizard

Apparently over 85% of people in the Republic are still officially Catholic according to official statistics. I quite frankly find that figure to be unbelievable given the state of the church in Ireland over the past 20 years and the attitude of younger people in particular to the church.

I think it's very important to acknowledge that you are not a Catholic if you feel that way and not to allow yourself to be 'defaulted' into that category thru apathy, tendancy towards social normality and peer pressure.

If the government see that 85% figure then they are going to act accordingly when it comes assigning magniture of importance to them.

Jurisprudence

I posted this comment to Irishhealth.com as a particular view (but not my only view)on this atrocity. Forgive the copy/paste but I'm not at all well so this needs less energy.

---

1 billion euro in health care cutbacks on the public healthcare system, much of which is going to cause suffering, torture and death to the children of Ireland today and those who are now adults having survived this evil abuse amongst all the others of this country.

Now we the public must pay 1 billion euro for the actions of rapists, murderers and molesters of the children of the past, our present adults, by the religious moralizers who still claim to be the messengers of god and demand our obedience. The largest organized child molestation and torture ring in the history of mankind. And still in control of our schools and children today.

Every penny and more is owed to these victims but I looked at my payslip today and dropped it knowing that the taxes deducted represented not the saving of children's lives in hospitals but the payment for rape of children by the moral elite of this country. It is covered in the blood of innocent children. I am paying for this evil to have been done. To anyone reading this I urge them to look at their pay slips and know the truth. Look at the deductions and know that somewhere a child molester is laughing, protected by a religious order and our leaders, knowing he/she will never face justice, that a politician decided a collar should mean that no prosecutions should be brought or justice sought, that you are to pay for their crimes.

As if money could ever make it better. As is usual with this government they believe they can throw money at something to make it better and you are to pay directly for the actions of child molestors and murderers. You, not the government as is so often the statement (its your taxes directly they use) are being used to bail out not only the developers, banks, politicians, the HSE and anyone else who is part of their elite untouchable clique, but child killers and rapists.

Those who were victims in the past are taxpayers today. They are being forced to pay for their own abuse, rape and torture.

Those who are mothers and fathers today are to pay for those who would molest their own children.

This is Ireland today. This is what we have become as a country. This is not the past. This is the present. Without those being brought to justice in the courts this is our future. And the courts have been complicit in this crime. Next a blasphemy law is to be implemented at your taxpayers expense to protect the religious from offense. But it will not be an offense for the religious to have raped and murdered children. And pensions will/are being paid to those in the government institutions which turned a blind eye and even participated, paid by you. Today our politicians told us an immoral evil contract they signed 10 years ago could not be changed. If so Ireland never will. What have we left when it has come to this. Is this as low as this country can go or can we get even worse. I can clearly see more dead and abused children in underfunded hospitals and institutions today. That tells me we have only just begun.

JupiterKid

Jurisprudence wrote: »

I posted this comment to Irishhealth.com as a particular view (but not my only view)on this atrocity. Forgive the copy/paste but I'm not at all well so this needs less energy.

---

1 billion euro in health care cutbacks on the public healthcare system, much of which is going to cause suffering, torture and death to the children of Ireland today and those who are now adults having survived this evil abuse amongst all the others of this country.

Now we the public must pay 1 billion euro for the actions of rapists, murderers and molesters of the children of the past, our present adults, by the religious moralizers who still claim to be the messengers of god and demand our obedience. The largest organized child molestation and torture ring in the history of mankind. And still in control of our schools and children today.

Every penny and more is owed to these victims but I looked at my payslip today and dropped it knowing that the taxes deducted represented not the saving of children's lives in hospitals but the payment for rape of children by the moral elite of this country. It is covered in the blood of innocent children. I am paying for this evil to have been done. To anyone reading this I urge them to look at their pay slips and know the truth. Look at the deductions and know that somewhere a child molester is laughing, protected by a religious order and our leaders, knowing he/she will never face justice, that a politician decided a collar should mean that no prosecutions should be brought or justice sought, that you are to pay for their crimes.

As if money could ever make it better. As is usual with this government they believe they can throw money at something to make it better and you are to pay directly for the actions of child molestors and murderers. You, not the government as is so often the statement (its your taxes directly they use) are being used to bail out not only the developers, banks, politicians, the HSE and anyone else who is part of their elite untouchable clique, but child killers and rapists.

Those who were victims in the past are taxpayers today. They are being forced to pay for their own abuse, rape and torture.

Those who are mothers and fathers today are to pay for those who would molest their own children.

This is Ireland today. This is what we have become as a country. This is not the past. This is the present. Without those being brought to justice in the courts this is our future. And the courts have been complicit in this crime. Next a blasphemy law is to be implemented at your taxpayers expense to protect the religious from offense. But it will not be an offense for the religious to have raped and murdered children. And pensions will/are being paid to those in the government institutions which turned a blind eye and even participated, paid by you. Today our politicians told us an immoral evil contract they signed 10 years ago could not be changed. If so Ireland never will. What have we left when it has come to this. Is this as low as this country can go or can we get even worse. I can clearly see more dead and abused children in underfunded hospitals and institutions today. That tells me we have only just begun.

That is an excellent and succinct post, Jurisprudence. I couldn't have put it better myself.

It angers me and beggars belief that we, the Irish taxpayers, will end up paying the lion's share of the abuse compensation claims whilst the church gets off lightly. It is nothing short of an outrage.:mad:

Nelson Muntz

The department of education was complicit in what happened so it stands to reason that the state has to pay something.

The vast majority should be paid by the church though.

carlop

Covey wrote: »

There is a scandal possibly worse than this and thats saying something.

For nigh on 15 years now we have by stealth set up a two tier legal system in this country and it has been done very effectively.

We have a legal system that applies to you and me and another that applies to the ruling classes in the country. They are only subject to tribunals, reports and agreements to subvert the law made amongst themselves. Now we have the legislature, the judiciary and the church hierarchy totally compliant in this process, to the total subversion of the written legal code.

The maximum penalties now for the ruling classes is the hassle of attending tribunals and possible embarrassment. It is almost impossible to prosecute them, fine them or in some cases even name them. It includes all types of crime up to and including rape and murder. Is there a country on this earth that operates like this?

Just to add some reality to the above I'm talking about Ireland and not Zimbabwe.

Yes there is, and ironically enough it is the very country in which the church has its headquarters. Italy is arguably worse in terms of having an untouchable ruling class, one only has to look at its Prime Minister.

road_high

The saddest aspect of this all for me was how they wrongly commited people to mental institutions in so many instances. They dorve people insane in those industrial schools and many of them were locked away.

norwegianwood

The thing that baffles me the most is that these twisted demons claimed that they were doing 'God's work'......may they rot in hell.

Dudess

shreksaurus wrote: »

Wonder did any of these fùcking beasts kill a child.

According to some testimonies, yes.

Ann22 wrote: »

Too right! There would have been a fair bit of pressure put on some to join up. Years ago, it was a huge deal to have a priest in the family. Young teens were sent away to seminaries to prepare and were probably abused themselves there.. at the crucial stage of puberty, when they were learning to deal with their desires and natural instincts. No wonder half of them became perverts ffs!

Yeah my mum remembers her friend's brother being dragged off to the Christian Brothers - says it was profoundly disturbing.

994 wrote: »

There were plenty of lonely widows to whom they could have "offered their condolences"

I really don't understand how that comment is a response to "some young men were forced to join the priesthood".

it's not an excuse to rape children.

What the fuk? Who here said there was any excuse to rape children?

Mr.Lizard wrote: »

Apparently over 85% of people in the Republic are still officially Catholic according to official statistics. I quite frankly find that figure to be unbelievable given the state of the church in Ireland over the past 20 years and the attitude of younger people in particular to the church.

I think it's very important to acknowledge that you are not a Catholic if you feel that way and not to allow yourself to be 'defaulted' into that category thru apathy, tendancy towards social normality and peer pressure.

If the government see that 85% figure then they are going to act accordingly when it comes assigning magniture of importance to them.

Younger generations will express their outrage and upset over this but STILL get married and baptise their children in catholic churches. Pathetic need to conform, as well as sheer laziness.

Chre59

I am just reading the report and am appalled.

I just happened upon a quote from a nun so called "Sr. Carmella"

No, I did not discuss with the Reverend Mother. I just did what the Reverend Mother told
me to do and my work was to teach in the School and that was it. That was what was
allotted to me and I did what I could there. But it was – the Reverend Mother, she
determined the lot of each individual.

Isn't that what the Nazi's said! We were just following orders...........

These perputrators of abuse should be named and prosecuted for these horrible crimes

Dudess

I don't understand the outrage over people following orders - fear makes people do terrible things they'd rather not do.

TequilaMockingBird

Dudess. Really. Don't start. Play devil's advocate somewhere else, but not on this thread. It is too raw for too many people.