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Institutional abuse was "endemic".. - MERGED

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    #122
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    The extent of the torture endured by deprived and vulnerable children was unbelievable - literally tens of thousands of children were starved, raped, beaten and forced to work like slaves.:mad: And some were literally murdered.

    Let's call a spade a spade. The religious institutions were wicked, heinous and evil and thus have NO place in running ANY sort of welfare, social or educational facility that is funded by the State. Their reputations are utterly destroyed and rightly so.

    I hope this report is the final death knell for the power of organised religion, particularly that of the catholic church, in Ireland.

    Thing is, my old man worked for a state run institution back in the 70s and they were every bit as bad as the church ones. The state wasnt funding these places most of the time, the church was running them because the state wouldnt foot the bill, just like they do today with many of our schools. The church didnt kidnap these poor wee bastids, the state abdicated their responsibility to them.

    Rage against the abuse that was meted out to these kids but using it to attack the church just goes to show that this is really only hitting the headlines because the media crusade against the position of the church.


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    #123
    SoupyNorman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,257 ✭✭✭SoupyNorman


    Dudess wrote: »
    Calling all priests paedophiles is of course moronic too though.

    Although I'm open minded enough not to subscribe to this notion, the members of this organisation have marred their own reputation and these (numerous) bad apples were not reined in by the organisation. They brought this stigma upon themselves and will have to work very very hard to remove it.

    Their current actions or lack there of do not bode well for this stigma vanishing.


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    #124
    Black Dog
    Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭Black Dog


    This is not new but it is a good thing that our society has been made dramatically aware of this danger in our society - the best proof that something can happen is that it has happened.

    I have been aware of this abuse for the past 40 years. Family circumstances meant that I was educated in a Christian Brothers' Boarding School. I wasn't there long when my brother visited. He is 10 years older and had attended the same school. I remember his questioning puzzling me - asking me if I was alright, was everything OK, were the Brothers OK, had anyone done anything wrong to me etc etc etc. As we walked along the corridor we met one of the Brothers. My brother stopped and addressed him and told him, in a loud voice and with very strong language him that if anything ever happened to me that he would come and kill him. He turned to me and, in front of this man, told me to be careful and never be alone with him.You can imagine my astonishment as a young child to witness this.

    Younger people reading and posting here may not realise the strength of the church's position back in those years. I witnessed the attitude of Christian Brothers as I worked in one of their schools - they considered themselves simply above everything, everyone, untouchable, above the law, above the state and, with the collusion of the likes of the Dept of Ed, they pretty much were.

    I have also known people in religious orders who took very brave stands against the abusers. There were many good people there also but there were some who were simply evil.


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    #125
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    This is seriously shocking stuff.....but unfortunately not surprising. the Church knew full well this stuff would come out, hence the little deal they struck with the Government a few years back re: compensation.

    The Separation of Church and State never really happened in this country and still hasn't.

    Hopefully all those who feel as outraged about this as I do will never set foot inside a Church again. Be it for ANY reason.

    Certainly until the Church gets it's house in order.


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    #126
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Bambi wrote: »
    Thing is, my old man worked for a state run institution back in the 70s and they were every bit as bad as the church ones.
    I'm surprised there was a distinction between the two types - I thought the church and state were inextricably linked.
    The state wasnt funding these places most of the time, the church was running them because the state wouldnt foot the bill, just like they do today with many of our schools.
    According to Raftery and O'Sullivan's book on which States of Fear is based, the church got a sweet enough handout from the state to run these institutions.
    The church didnt kidnap these poor wee bastids, the state abdicated their responsibility to them.
    Again though, wasn't the church's power that huge that it was pretty much in cahoots with the state?
    Rage against the abuse that was meted out to these kids but using it to attack the church just goes to show that this is really only hitting the headlines because the media crusade against the position of the church.
    I think the outrage against the church is more vociferous because of what these people stood for - love, understanding, forgiveness. On top of all the piety.


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    #127
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Caoimhín wrote: »
    Thats what has really been hammered home to me too. Also, in my opinion, knowledge of the crime and refusal to do/say anything about it is complicity in it.
    Exactly.

    We dont look at the National Socialist Party and say "Well Im sure they werent ALL bad, they did some good too" etc.

    This organisation used their vast power to construct a system in which they could systematically rape, torture and murder children with impunity.

    That is the simple truth. No amount of catholic apologists, who are akin to holocaust deniers, will change that.

    Its time to strip the church of all its assets and return them to the state. Theyve taken a vow of poverty (youre havin a laugh) anyway.


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    #128
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Covey wrote: »
    even the suppossodly "good" ones did nothing
    It's very easy to say you'd have done something had you been in the shoes of the decent priests - sometimes we're out of our depths though. How do we know some decent priests DIDN'T complain but their concerns were brushed under the carpet/they were punished? I like to think though, even if I hadn't the courage or ability to stand up to the might of the catholic church (and let's not forget how huge it was) I would have walked away from it...


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    #129
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    Rage against the abuse that was meted out to these kids but using it to attack the church just goes to show that this is really only hitting the headlines because the media crusade against the position of the church.

    The same Catholic Church that when the problem first emerged wanted to abstain from the legitmate legal process to investigate the abuses and allegations under 'Canon Law'? That would have been a whitewash and a conjob with even less satisfaction for victims. The same Catholic Church that decided to negotiate a settlement with the Government to limit the damages it would have to pay for abuses (before we even got this report?). The same Catholic Church that knew about these abuses and did nothing? In fact the same Catholic Church that just transferred priests who were abusers to other dioceses?

    The Catholic Church is culpable for these abuses and you can gussy it up anyway you like but 'attacks' on the Church are justified. This isn't a media crusade against the position of the Church. It's the outing of a conspiracy by all sectors of society, with the Church playing the pivotal role, in the systematic abuse of Irish people.

    What would you rather us do? Return to the dark days, shrug our shoulders and say 'Ah sure...what can we do?'


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    #130
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Dudess wrote: »
    It's very easy to say you'd have done something had you been in the shoes of the decent priests - sometimes we're out of our depths though. How do we know some decent priests DIDN'T complain but their concerns were brushed under the carpet/they were punished? I like to think though, even if I hadn't the courage or ability to stand up to the might of the catholic church (and let's not forget how huge it was) I would have walked away from it...
    Irrelevant Dudess.

    There are always dissenters in organisations who systematically torture and kill. Im sure there were a few dissenters in the catholic church. So what? It doesnt change the nature of the fact that this was planned, organised and executed by the church in their full knowledge.


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    #131
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    CiaranC wrote: »
    We dont look at the National Socialist Party and say "Well Im sure they werent ALL bad, they did some good too" etc.
    But that is actually true of a small number of members of the Nazi party - genuinely not all of them joined with evil intent. And that party's actual agenda was a heinous one.
    The catholic church's official agenda isn't a heinous one - it's a christian church, so plenty of people would have joined it because they were followers of Christ. I agree the catholic church should not be supported and I wish catholics in this country would convert to another christian religion... but while it's reasonable to condemn the institution of the catholic church, it is not fair to demonise all individual priests/nuns for being members of the same order as those who abused.


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    #132
    Warper
    Registered Users Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭Warper


    The Catholic Church have been getting away with (literally) murder for too long in this country. It is about time that people stood up to them. A protest or a public march has to happen.


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    #133
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Im sure there were a few dissenters in the catholic church. So what? It doesnt change the nature of the fact that this was planned, organised and executed by the church in their full knowledge.
    You think there was actually a strategic operation of abuse going on within catholic church run institutions? I'd have thought it was more a case of abusive individuals gravitating towards these places to wield their power... and then the higher-ups not wanting the church to be hit by scandal, so covering up their crimes.


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    #134
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Dudess wrote: »
    But that is actually true of a small number of members of the Nazi party - genuinely not all of them joined with evil intent. And that party's actual agenda was a heinous one.
    The catholic church's official agenda isn't a heinous one
    Did the National Socialist Party run for election in 1933 with a manifesto to set up institutions to rape, murder and torture Jews? Of course they didnt. It was NEVER their public policy. They just got on with the business of doing it.

    Im sorry, if an organisation takes power, then proceeds to use that power to organise institutions like the catholic church did; then that organisation, and ALL of its members who did not oppose it and worked within it, are answerable for its actions.


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    #135
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Dudess wrote: »
    You think there was actually a strategic operation of abuse going on within catholic church run institutions? I'd have thought it was more a case of abusive individuals gravitating towards these places to wield their power... and then the higher-ups not wanting the church to be hit by scandal, so covering up their crimes.
    I believe that 100%

    If it was just a series of thousands of cover up jobs and they wanted to limit scandal, the higher ups could have simply stopped it.


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    #136
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I don't know... That seems a bit Dan Brown to me.


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    #137
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I'd say a minority joined the Catholic Church with evil intent actually. This making it out to seem like the majority isn't the case.


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    #138
    Black Dog
    Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭Black Dog


    Question: How do you view the situation of present members of the Christian Brothers, for example, people who personally have had no involvement in abuse?

    However, I believe that the general age profile of such religious orders is quite old and imagine that many present day members would certainly be aware of what went on, would certainly have heard of it from older members. Teaching in a Christian Brothers' school I certainly heard of it and knew that conditions in the reformatory schools were very tough and rough indeed. With this in mind, have they something to answer?


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    #139
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I'd say a minority joined the Catholic Church with evil intent actually. This making it out to seem like the majority isn't the case.
    What difference does that make? The same holds true for the Bolsheviks. Most joined to do good. We ended up with 20 million dead. Whos fault was that? Not the Bolsheviks I suppose. Stalin and a few bad apples scattered about, and some people who were too meek to speak up.

    These organisations are reviled in the countries they sprang up in. In most they are still illegal. In ours, half the population still goes and kneels and grovels in front of them on a Sunday.


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    #140
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    CiaranC wrote: »
    What difference does that make? The same holds true for the Bolsheviks. Most joined to do good. We ended up with 20 million dead. Whos fault was that? Not the Bolsheviks I suppose. Stalin and a few bad apples scattered about, and some people who were too meek to speak up.

    It makes quite a big difference actually if you are generalising.
    CiaranC wrote: »
    These organisations are reviled in the countries they sprang up in. In most they are still illegal. In ours, half the population still goes and kneels and grovels in front of them on a Sunday.

    Religious groups should be hated? Is that really the way to bring forth a cohesive society. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a disgrace but to say that this is the result of the teaching of the Church is totally inaccurate. I think we need to see a deep commitment from the Catholic Church to change, but to revile the whole Catholic Church for a minority of priests and nuns is a bit extreme.


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    #141
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I think there's a bit of confuddlement here: I agree the institution of the catholic church should be condemned, I disagree however that individuals within it who were decent and well meaning and may have tried to do something about the atrocities, be held accountable for the evil actions of their colleagues.


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    #142
    gimme5minutes
    Registered Users Posts: 387 ✭✭gimme5minutes


    All this talk of how the Church's good actions outweigh their bad...Tell me, do the Church's good actions in Ireland outweight their bad? Cos I can't think of much good they've done. Going on about how great you and how everybody should worship some figment of your imagination doesn't count. Whatever bit of good they might've done is far far outweighed by the bad. Ireland would've been much better off if the Church never existed.

    Can someone please tell me what f*cking good these bastards have done and how it stacks up against the rape, abuse and murder they have committed?


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    #143
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Religious groups should be hated? Is that really the way to bring forth a cohesive society. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a disgrace but to say that this is the result of the teaching of the Church is totally inaccurate. I think we need to see a deep commitment from the Catholic Church to change, but to revile the whole Catholic Church for a minority of priests and nuns is a bit extreme.
    If an organisation sets itself up as a ritual and systematic abuser of children, then it naturally follows that it should be reviled.

    The catholic church facilitated over 800 individuals in dozens of institutions as child rapists. It was aware of the rapists and torturers from the very top of the organisation and actively protected them for 50 years.

    I am not interest in seeing the catholic church "change", any more than I am interested in seeing a new, modernised, PR-spun Khmer Rouge.
    Dudess wrote:
    I think there's a bit of confuddlement here: I agree the institution of the catholic church should be condemned, I disagree however that individuals within it who were decent and well meaning and may have tried to do something about the atrocities, be held accountable for the evil actions of their colleagues.
    Who are these individuals who were decent and well meaning and "may" have tried to do something? How can you separate the membership of such an organisation from the organisation itself? Are we now to forgive every such organisations on the strength that some in them were merely complicit and not active?


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    #144
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Who are these individuals who were decent and well meaning and "may" have tried to do something?
    Oh come on. Don't be so disingenuous.
    How can you separate the membership of such an organisation from the organisation itself? Are we now to forgive every such organisations on the strength that some in them were merely complicit and not active?
    Because the catholic church was a christian church, joined by people who were followers of Christ. In this instance, of course membership of the organisation can be separated from the organisation itself.


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    #145
    Warper
    Registered Users Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭Warper


    Exactly and still no-one is held accountable. What type of country are we living in that these type of sadistic crimes go unpunished. Imagine what the rest of the developed world are thinking reading all these horror stories and that no-one is going to be brought to justice. What is going on - the Catholic Church have been persecuting people since their foundation and still no one is to blame. They make me sick.


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    #146
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Dudess wrote: »
    Oh come on. Don't be so disingenuous.
    Im not being disingenuous. Im asking the question. Who are the people within the catholic church who railed against abuse of children? Are they mentioned in this report?

    Maybe someone can restore some balance to the argument with some examples.
    Because the catholic church was a christian church, joined by people who were followers of Christ.
    Fair enough. So ill ask again, are we to revise our positions on all organisations which systematically carried out vile acts because the majority were simply carried along?


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    #147
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    To suggest anyone who joined the catholic church did so knowing there was evil taking place within it and not having a problem with keeping quiet about/supporting this is just ludicrous beyond any Dan Brown novel. I have a relation who is a priest - one of the best people I know. It's risible to suggest he and others like him would support, passively or actively, such monstrousness. I say that as an atheist/agnostic (not sure which) who hugely condemns the institution of the catholic church.

    Ciaran, do you honestly think not one priest would have tried to stand up against this horror? And wouldn't you agree those who didn't, chose not to because of fear/coercion?
    I love the way in discussions like this, people who didn't stand up to a colossal machine which would have crushed them, are condemned so relentlessly. I know, had I been a German during WWII, I would have kept my ****ing mouth shut. Call it cowardice, I call it self preservation.


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    #148
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,067 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    gimme5minutes wrote: »
    All this talk of how the Church's good actions outweigh their bad...Tell me, do the Church's good actions in Ireland outweight their bad? Cos I can't think of much good they've done. Going on about how great you and how everybody should worship some figment of your imagination doesn't count. Whatever bit of good they might've done is far far outweighed by the bad. Ireland would've been much better off if the Church never existed.

    Can someone please tell me what f*cking good these bastards have done and how it stacks up against the rape, abuse and murder they have committed?


    " With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. "

    - Steven Weinberg


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    #149
    Black Dog
    Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭Black Dog


    CiaranC,

    The report contains an account of one priest in Dublin who was pastor to Christian Brothers school in Artane. He witnessed conditions in the school and reported this to the Archbishop of Dublin, John Charles McQuaid. He, in turn, reported this to the Dept. of Justice. The Dept of Justice made enquiries of the Dept of Ed which had responsibility for Artane. The Dept of Ed rubbished this priest's report; had their inspectors visit the school and wrote their own report which contradicted all the priest had said.

    Not everybody in the church was guilty and there were many outside the church/religious orders who were responsible for much of what went on.


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    #150
    Overblood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Overblood


    Are we allowed to quote from the report? Can I quote a passage that includes "penis" and "mouth" in close proximity?


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    #151
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Dudess wrote: »
    To suggest anyone who joined the catholic church did so knowing there was evil taking place within it and not having a problem with keeping quiet about/supporting this is just ludicrous beyond any Dan Brown novel.
    Everyone knew it was going on. Everyone. Everyone was told which priests to watch out for.

    My mother had the misfortune to be born into a poor family, the youngest of 13. Her father died while her mother was pregnant with her, leaving the family almost destitude and a prime target for these vultures.

    She was never allowed to be alone. She was instructed, under punishment of death, never, ever to go near the augustinian college. Her siblings were instructed to travel in groups while in school, even while on the streets. Her sister was abducted by the state with no legal procedure, and placed in the care of some wealthy people in Dublin who could not have children. It was months before her brothers got her back.

    Its difficult to imagine. Its like something out of Kafkas East Germany. Or Dan Brown.
    Ciaran, do you honestly think not one priest would have tried to stand up against this horror? And wouldn't you agree those who didn't, chose not to because of fear/coercion?
    Im sure there were a handful priests who stood up and were excommunicated over it, a living death in those times to a believer. It doesnt make any difference now.
    I love the way in discussions like this, people who didn't stand up to a colossal machine which would have crushed them, are condemned so relentlessly. I know, had I been a German during WWII, I would have kept my ****ing mouth shut. Call it cowardice, I call it self preservation.
    I agree with you 100%. The sheer power of the church allowed them to operate at will. My grandmother lived in terror of them taking her kids, because she knew what would happen to them. What did she do? What could she do? Nothing, thats what.


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