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Institutional abuse was "endemic".. - MERGED

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12467…17

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    #92
    CPT. SURF
    Closed Accounts Posts: 321 ✭✭CPT. SURF


    "A betrayal of love"

    What the hell does that mean? That the children and the priests were in love with one another, just not yet ready for sexual relations?

    Is it me or is that a really weird thing to say?


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    #93
    smellslikeshoes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭smellslikeshoes


    This is absolutely disgraceful, I hope the church in Ireland will never recover from this in the same way its thousands of victims will never fully recover.


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    #94
    Mr.Lizard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭Mr.Lizard


    This is the price you pay for trying to create a "normal" family oriented country. No mixing of races, no illegitimate children, everyone happily married etc. It's unnatural.

    Just as some people believe that ALL the Br's are to blame and not just those who commited the offenses I believe that the entire country of the time was at fault for these events.

    Where was the man and the woman of 1940,1950 when all these unwanted kids were getting swept under the carpet happily out of sight and out of mind? They knew what was happening to these kids in terms of removing them, even if they didn't know what was going on in those places. It was already wrong at that point. They willingly created, maintained and contributed to a society where these kids were considered outcasts. The rest took care of itself.

    If you take anything from this report it is that you should focus your anger on the social problems of right now and let the past lie because you can't change it. Don't let the government or the church or even your peers tell you what is right and wrong. Make that decision for yourself and maybe something like this won't happen again in this country.


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    #95
    Noffles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,549 ✭✭✭Noffles


    As I continue to read this it makes me more and more angry... I tell you if I was irish I would be f*cking ashamed of myself and of my nation.... Letting a religious society ingrain itself so much in your lives that they can have the power to do ANYTHING THEY LIKED to children in their care....

    I have a son and my mind can not even contemplate anything like that happening to him... how could this happen??????????


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    #96
    Covey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,368 ✭✭✭Covey


    Noffles wrote: »
    how could this happen??????????

    It proves the truth of Edmund Burkes statement

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

    utterly.


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    #97
    Ann22
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭Ann22


    If women fell pregnant and their parents didn't support them, they had little or no choice but to hand their babies over to the church. There was no single parent allowance in those times. Priests in Ireland up 'til the sixties were treated like Gods. Even in the late 70s I remember there being a mad fuss if the priest happened to call..Fcuk! Big scattering match to tidy the house while the dark figure hovered at the door:eek:. I think If a priest had molested me I don't think I'd have been able to tell my mother about it. Even if I did, I don't think anything would have been done. She'd have been too embarrassed to say such things to anyone.
    I'd kill someone for touching my children, it just goes to show the power the church had that they got away with it for so long.


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    #98
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Nelson Muntz wrote: »
    The victims deserve justice and the guilty deserve punishment.

    Absolutely. This is a clear disgrace and why it was let to happen both by the Vatican and the Government is beyond comprehension.
    Nelson Muntz wrote: »
    I would say there are many, many people that have been pushed away from religion by the catholic church.

    Which is tragic. It's tragic that people are going to use this as an argument against Christianity in general in Ireland, and it's tragic that people are going to use this as a reason to avoid any faith altogether.
    Nelson Muntz wrote: »
    If the church wants to be respected by the community and have a real future, it needs to reverse its position and be an open book to investigations and help to catch & punish the guilty.

    It is not the old days where the church can rule with an iron fist by threats & intimidation. They need to earn back trust & respect.

    Couldn't agree with you more.
    smellslikeshoes wrote: »
    This is absolutely disgraceful, I hope the church in Ireland will never recover from this in the same way its thousands of victims will never fully recover.

    I hope Christianity in general will survive. This horror story has nothing to do with the Gospel and I hope that people will pick up the Bible and read it for themselves instead of being so reliant on individual priests and preachers.
    Ann22 wrote: »
    Priests in Ireland up 'til the sixties were treated like Gods. Even in the late 70s I remember there being a mad fuss if the priest happened to call..Fcuk! Big scattering match to tidy the house while the dark figure hovered at the door:eek:.

    This is exactly the problem. They were mere fallible people just like you and I, they had their failings like you and I. People shouldn't be put up on pedestals like this ever it always ends badly.


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    #99
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    Jakkass wrote: »
    People shouldn't be put up on pedestals like this ever it always ends badly.

    Like Jesus?


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    #100
    Noffles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,549 ✭✭✭Noffles


    Ann22 wrote: »
    If women fell pregnant and their parents didn't support them, they had little or no choice but to hand their babies over to the church. There was no single parent allowance in those times. Priests in Ireland up 'til the sixties were treated like Gods. Even in the late 70s I remember there being a mad fuss if the priest happened to call..Fcuk! Big scattering match to tidy the house while the dark figure hovered at the door:eek:. I think If a priest had molested me I don't think I'd have been able to tell my mother about it. Even if I did, I don't think anything would have been done. She'd have been too embarrassed to say such things to anyone.
    I'd kill someone for touching my children, it just goes to show the power the church had that they got away with it for so long.

    How can a country be so backward.... to be honest though the further out from the cities you get it's amazing how backward it still is... Please let a priest knock on my door....... We'd have quite the chat!

    Thankfully I grew up in a country where no one had this sort of authority... I dread to think how bad it was.


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    #101
    jbl123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭jbl123


    Just spoke with a friend in the States who told me it's on the front page of today's New York Times. The shame...


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    #102
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Jake Thundering Ramrod wrote: »
    Like Jesus?
    You know full well how a Christian would answer that question :)

    There isn't any comparison between the person of Jesus Christ and these priests and nuns, that's pretty much the main point I'm trying to make. This situation was so far removed from the Gospel and the main message of Christianity, that's why it is so sickening to me to think that acts like these took place by people who professed to follow Jesus.


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    #103
    Covey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,368 ✭✭✭Covey


    Not just people who professed to follow Jesus, but the very institutions who were the official arm of that religion. And it's still the same today.

    Long way to go to get anything back for the church and I'm not sure it's even possible. I certainly hope not until at the very least, they are strictly regulated.


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    #104
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,068 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Why don't those that oppose the church be more outspoken about it in this country?

    Secular State my balls


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    #105
    Covey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,368 ✭✭✭Covey


    What I oppose , is the involvement of the church in Secular life. Not the church, let them discuss their fairytales with whoever but thats it, full stop.

    No consultations on legal matters , no cow tow in the constitution absolutely nothing outside of church matters.


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    #106
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,661 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    The extent of the torture endured by deprived and vulnerable children was unbelievable - literally tens of thousands of children were starved, raped, beaten and forced to work like slaves.:mad: And some were literally murdered.

    Let's call a spade a spade. The religious institutions were wicked, heinous and evil and thus have NO place in running ANY sort of welfare, social or educational facility that is funded by the State. Their reputations are utterly destroyed and rightly so.

    I hope this report is the final death knell for the power of organised religion, particularly that of the catholic church, in Ireland.


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    #107
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Covey: that's an interesting point. You can keep the Church out of politics, but you cannot keep religion out of people. What if someone with religious aims runs for government and gets in on a popular mandate? I'm not sure if one can ever have a 100% secular society given the people who are within that society.


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    #108
    Noffles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,549 ✭✭✭Noffles


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Covey: that's an interesting point. You can keep the Church out of politics, but you cannot keep religion out of people. What if someone with religious aims runs for government and gets in on a popular mandate? I'm not sure if one can ever have a 100% secular society given the people who are within that society.

    Thats a good point but sadly on the flip side this situation is a good example of how bad it can get.... And it can't get any worse than this in a supposed developed country.


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    #109
    Covey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,368 ✭✭✭Covey


    They are only another organisation like any other. Were they to run for election on a "church" platform, they would get less votes than were the scientologists to do so.

    I can't see any situation where the people of Ireland would vote en-masse on a religious basis. If that day comes then let democracy have it's say and I'll be queueing in the Airport.

    But, until that day, be gone with ye from any interference in State or Legal functions and engage in getting back the congregations who have and are deserting you in masses.

    At this point that is your one and only mandate. And I'm not trying to keep the religion out of people that's a personal choice.


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    #110
    Caoimhín
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    For the first time in my life, I am utterly ashamed to be Irish.

    Church, government, media, judiciary and the general population who were alive at the time are ALL to blame.


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    #111
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I'm surprised people are treating these horrors as news. We knew about them exactly 10 years ago when the States of Fear series was aired on RTE. And we knew about them three years before that, after the documentary Dear Daughter was aired http://www.alliancesupport.org/news/archives/002077.html.

    I certainly ain't ashamed to be Irish. But while I have no problem with people being religious, I do have a problem with people supporting this organisation. There are other christian churches.


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    #112
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    Dudess wrote: »
    I'm surprised people are treating these horrors as news. We knew about them exactly 10 years ago when the States of Fear http://www.alliancesupport.org/news/archives/000850.html series was aired on RTE. And we knew about them three years before that, after the documentary Dear Daughter was aired http://www.alliancesupport.org/news/archives/002077.html.

    That's what I was thinking. Surely this whole thing doesn't come as a surprise? I've always associated the Christian Brothers with sex abuse and the likes.


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    #113
    Covey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,368 ✭✭✭Covey


    True,

    But certain facts emerged yesterday, that I for one wasn't aware of.

    37% on kids put into these institutions were put in by the ISPCC or it's predecessor.

    The involvement of the Department of Education was much worse than I imagined.

    The obstruction of the CBS was also much worse than I imagined.

    The overall scale of knowledge of everyone from the police, the judiciary, the religious (sic) , the state and the populace, far exceeded what I was aware of and makes it for what it was an appalling vista.


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    #114
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I wonder when the moronic cries of "anti cleric" will start... :rolleyes:

    Some genius texted the breakfast show on Today FM this morning to castigate Ian Dempsey for painting all clergy with the same brush - eh... he didn't. He simply read the newspaper headlines.


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    #115
    SoupyNorman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,257 ✭✭✭SoupyNorman


    What an abhorrent disgrace, the whole world has it's eyes on Ireland and what action is being taken.....Diddley Squat.

    Incompetent politicians spouting out statements about legal issues and 'liability'..trying to absolve themselves of this ASAP.

    Is it just me or is this government trying to provoke the public into forming into a mob, because if so then it's the only thing it's getting 100% correct.


    800 or so rapists and abusers living around the country in anonymity, funded by the church...page after page of evidence but no prosecution...

    one law for them, hey heres a new slogan for priest recruitment:

    Wanna be a unprosecutable [edit]childrapist?, Join the Catholic Church.




    If I'm this frustrated, what the hell must the victims feel.


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    #116
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Covey wrote: »
    They are only another organisation like any other. Were they to run for election on a "church" platform, they would get less votes than were the scientologists to do so.

    Yes, but that isn't what I'm referring to. People don't have to run on a church platform. People can run with Christian / Islamic ideals. It happens in other secular countries. For example in Turkey which has been considered secular since the days of Attaturk you have the AKP in power, they have an Islamic ideology and they got in trouble with the Turkish courts for trying to remove the headscarf ban at universities. Of course we all know what the USA can be like politically too.
    Covey wrote: »
    I can't see any situation where the people of Ireland would vote en-masse on a religious basis. If that day comes then let democracy have it's say and I'll be queueing in the Airport.

    Just because you cannot see it doesn't mean that it cannot happen. Good governments pre-empt what could possibly happen when they are considering legislation particularly on topics such as the separation of Church and State.
    Covey wrote: »
    But, until that day, be gone with ye from any interference in State or Legal functions and engage in getting back the congregations who have and are deserting you in masses.

    Yes, but you are not understanding that Church and State can be separate, but that doesn't guarantee that religion will be separate from the individual. If religion is not separate from the individual you cannot be guaranteed that they are going to run with a secular agenda can you?
    Covey wrote: »
    At this point that is your one and only mandate. And I'm not trying to keep the religion out of people that's a personal choice.

    Absolutely, but if you cannot separate religion from the individual, and if the individual runs for parliament, and if the people are represented by individuals in parliament there is no guarantee that religion will be out of the parliament even when there is Church State separation.
    Dudess wrote: »
    I wonder when the moronic cries of "anti cleric" will start...

    Some genius texted the breakfast show on Today FM this morning to castigate Ian Dempsey for painting all clergy with the same brush - eh... he didn't. He simply read the newspaper headlines.

    Some won't be so moronic. People will no doubt generalise all priests like some did before.


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    #117
    Caoimhín
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    Covey wrote: »
    The overall scale of knowledge of everyone from the police, the judiciary, the religious (sic) , the state and the populace, far exceeded what I was aware of and makes it for what it was an appalling vista.

    Thats what has really been hammered home to me too. Also, in my opinion, knowledge of the crime and refusal to do/say anything about it is complicity in it.


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    #118
    Covey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,368 ✭✭✭Covey


    SoupyNorman wrote: »



    If I'm this frustrated, what the hell must the victims feel.


    I'm a grown thick skinned middle aged man and I've shed lots of tears since yesterday.

    The OAP's last November were the only people I can remember to express, rightly, a sense of outrage in this country.

    When will we, who have had it much easier, finally express a sense of real OUTRAGE !


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    #119
    SoupyNorman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,257 ✭✭✭SoupyNorman


    Covey wrote: »
    I'm a grown thick skinned middle aged man and I've shed lots of tears since yesterday.

    The OAP's last November were the only people I can remember to express, rightly, a sense of outrage in this country.

    When will we, who have had it much easier, finally express a sense of real OUTRAGE !

    Ive built up quite a thick skin myself thanks to the tinternets, but listening/watching to Christine Buckley on TV3 last night had lumps in my throat and the occasional urge to puke.


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    #120
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Some won't be so moronic. People will no doubt generalise all priests like some did before.
    Oh I'm referring to cries of "anti cleric" simply because of the anger over the abuse, not because of people calling all priests paedophiles. In fact, on reflection I'd consider that text to the Today FM breakfast show an example of the former.
    Calling all priests paedophiles is of course moronic too though.


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    #121
    Covey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,368 ✭✭✭Covey


    Dudess wrote: »
    Calling all priests paedophiles is of course moronic too though.

    Of course, but even the suppossodly "good" ones did nothing. It's the organisation should be proscribed from all state and legal functions in the future. No half way house.

    If they want to preach religious stuff, I've the choice to listen or not.


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