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Atheism: how can you be so sure?

12346»

Comments

  • #252
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    daveharnett wrote: »
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and so on.

    I've heard this before. I disagree. Absence of evidence can definitely be taken as evidence of absence. For example, I don't see any vampires around here. In fact, there is a total absence of evidence for vampires altogether. I would take this absence of evidence as evidence for the absence of vampires.

    Absence of evidence is not proof of absence, of course.


  • #253
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Zillah wrote: »
    I've heard this before. I disagree. Absence of evidence can definitely be taken as evidence of absence.
    Too bloody right. If you are looking to show that something intangible doesn't exist, then a complete lack of evidence that it does exist is pretty much all you have.

    For example if someone were to claim an invisible table existed, you could verify this claim by placing a cheesecake on the table. If the cheesecake falls to the ground, that would be actual evidence of it's absence. However if the table was allegedly invisible and intangible, then all you could ever have would be an absence of evidence. (And a clearly mad person).

    I guess it's tied in with the whole "can't prove something doesn't exist" notion, which as you say only precludes one from actually proving anything, rather than just supplying evidence to support that conclusion/belief.


  • #254
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Zillah wrote: »
    I've heard this before. I disagree. Absence of evidence can definitely be taken as evidence of absence. For example, I don't see any vampires around here. In fact, there is a total absence of evidence for vampires altogether. I would take this absence of evidence as evidence for the absence of vampires.

    Absence of evidence is not proof of absence, of course.

    There is probably more 'evidence' to 'prove'the existence of vampires than God..

    >_>


  • #255
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Zillah wrote: »
    You see, this is no longer an argument based on logic, its a statement, nothing more. One you cannot support.

    For example, the following is an argument:

    1 - Nothing can exist without a cause.
    2 - The universe exists.
    3 - Therefore, something created the universe.

    Now, this argument doesn't even address "God", and the premise of "nothing can exist without a cause" is fairly arbitrary, but at least its an argument that we can discuss the various points of and see where we agree and disagree and work it out.
    I'd like to know then what is the general view on point 1, i.e. does the existence of everything depend on a cause? Certainly within our universe, effect only happens with a prior cause. Are people suggesting that things operate differently in other potential universes?

    And why would people believe in universes (with different laws of physics) other than our own when there is no evidence for such? Do people believe universes pop into existence without a cause?


  • #256
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    kelly1 wrote: »
    And why would people believe in universes (with different laws of physics) other than our own when there is no evidence for such? Do people believe universes pop into existence without a cause?

    Do theists believe that Gods pop into existence without a cause?


  • #257
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    pH wrote: »
    Do theists believe that Gods pop into existence without a cause?
    Of course not. Is this a trick question?

    My argument is that if you believe there is a law of cause and effect, it's illogical to conclude that there is an infinte chain of cause and effect. Am I the only one this think this is an absurd notion?


  • #258
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Of course not. Is this a trick question?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    I already admitted in post #201 that everything doesn't have to have a cause with God being the only being without a cause.
    :confused:


  • #259
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    axer wrote: »
    :confused:
    Sorry, you've lost me. Where's the confusion?


  • #260
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Of course not. Is this a trick question?

    My argument is that if you believe there is a law of cause and effect, it's illogical to conclude that there is an infinte chain of cause and effect. Am I the only one this think this is an absurd notion?

    Why is it any more or less "absurd" than the concept of a super intelligent being that just exists some how, and has just always existed some how.

    To answer your question, it isn't clear if causality is a property of the universe, or a larger property. So it is entirely possible and rather probable, that causality was "created" as part of the universe, and therefore the cause of the universe is a undefined concept, like (as someone else said) "north of the north pole"


  • #261
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Sorry, you've lost me. Where's the confusion?
    pH wrote: »
    Do theists believe that Gods pop into existence without a cause?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Of course not. Is this a trick question?
    You seemed to imply that god popped into existence with a cause but i'll take it you didn't mean it that way.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    My argument is that if you believe there is a law of cause and effect, it's illogical to conclude that there is an infinte chain of cause and effect. Am I the only one this think this is an absurd notion?
    It is absurd to conclude that it must have been (your) god that caused the creation of the universe without *any* proof whatsoever. How can you make that conclusion and rule out any other possibilities with out *any* proof to back it up? If you say that god just existed infinitely then how can you rule out the likes of infinite circular causation in that there has always been a infinite loop of cause and effect?


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  • #262
    steve-hosting36
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,161 ✭✭✭steve-hosting36


    Kelly - haven't we been through this? Things happen without cause, as I said physics alone is full of such examples. 'Cause and effect' does not prove god created the universe, nor can we state everything that exists, comes into existence or happens requires a cause, nor can we state ever cause has an initiator.


  • #263
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    steve-hosting36 wrote: »
    physics alone is full of such examples.

    Any examples?


  • #264
    steve-hosting36
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,161 ✭✭✭steve-hosting36


    A simple example is gas molecules - there is no external cause or force which causes a group of gas molecules to spread out by diffusion and yet they do.


  • #265
    steve-hosting36
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,161 ✭✭✭steve-hosting36


    To perhaps steer the discussion back on track - kelly - if you take a 'law' of cause and effect - where does self determinism, or free will come into it? Or (as would also be demanded if you were to accept an omniscient god) are we all doomed to follow whaever path is laid out for us regardless of the choices we make - ie: the universe and everything in it is one giant sequence of causes and effects.


  • #266
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    steve-hosting36 wrote: »
    A simple example is gas molecules - there is no external cause or force which causes a group of gas molecules to spread out by diffusion and yet they do.
    I seriously doubt that!


  • #267
    Dave147
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭Dave147


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I seriously doubt that!

    Are you freakin' serious?

    Also, I don't know how someone can start a thread about 'Atheism' as in 'A-the-ism' and not be able to spell the word after spelling it correctly first, aethiest? Come on!

    When I told someone (online) I was agnostic, and I don't believe in God. He told me I was going to burn in hell for not believing. I told him not to judge me because I have no faith, to which he told me it's ok because I am not chosen by 'our father'. Can anyone else see something wrong with this or is it just me? There's an awful lot of people who have faith, JUST to have faith.

    So if I have not been chosen by God, then why does one of his followers try and make me believe.. Can I be un-not-chosen??


  • #268
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Dave147 wrote: »
    Also, I don't know how someone can start a thread about 'Atheism' as in 'A-the-ism' and not be able to spell the word after spelling it correctly first, aethiest? Come on!
    This is how - you add an 'e' after the first 'A'. It really is that simple. I hope I didn't offend you.

    Kelly1 - If you say that god just existed infinitely then how can you rule out the likes of circular causation in that there has always been a infinite loop of cause and effect?


  • #269
    steve-hosting36
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,161 ✭✭✭steve-hosting36


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I seriously doubt that!

    Perhaps you should simply google the fact? And that's a fairly simple example, without delving into quantum mechanics, which is even fuller of examples that break causality and in fact lots of our assumptions about how things 'should' work.

    You also ignored my question about how determinism fits in a causal universe which was initiated by an omnipresent, omniscient god, who clearly knows the outcome of everything already.


  • #270
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Why is it any more or less "absurd" than the concept of a super intelligent being that just exists some how, and has just always existed some how.
    I find it less absurd that a super intelligent being just exists, than the notion that that super intelligent being exists and gives a damn about the length of earth peoples' skirts. *

    * Except in third world countries


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  • #271
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Well there is a correlation between hemline length and economic crisis... maybe God is an Economist?


  • #272
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I'd like to know then what is the general view on point 1, i.e. does the existence of everything depend on a cause? Certainly within our universe, effect only happens with a prior cause. Are people suggesting that things operate differently in other potential universes?

    And why would people believe in universes (with different laws of physics) other than our own when there is no evidence for such? Do people believe universes pop into existence without a cause?

    Well I would say that it would appear that the phenomenon of cause and effect is not nearly so pervasive as we might think. On the quantum level stuff pops in and out of existence constantly with no cause. Even if we for now concede that everything must have a cause, even the universe itself, it still has nothing to do with God.

    If you also then claim that God is an exception to the must have a cause rule then you've fallen into gibberish. Does not compute. The words you speak do not convey meaning.


  • #273
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    kelly1 wrote: »
    My argument is that if you believe there is a law of cause and effect, it's illogical to conclude that there is an infinte chain of cause and effect. Am I the only one this think this is an absurd notion?
    Jesus and Mo dealt with this very question last Friday:
    2008-08-01.jpg


  • #274
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    So a belief in god is the same about the non-belief in anything. Thats fine then. I guess I am atheist as well as a-pinkelephantist. Maybe I should put in a forum request.

    The Messiah has been born!!!!!!


    The Messiah!!!!!!!!!

    I believe!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I believe!!!!!!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7951331.stm


  • #275
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    steve-hosting36 wrote: »
    Perhaps you should simply google the fact? And that's a fairly simple example, without delving into quantum mechanics, which is even fuller of examples that break causality and in fact lots of our assumptions about how things 'should' work.

    Gas, example, oxygen, is a gas due to its heat, which can be simply described as kinetic energy.

    Each atom has energy in the form of kinetic energy, they are bouncing around into each other with mass and velocity, at a large scale, this is seen as a gas, with no containment, these atoms bouncing around with mass and velocity will mingle with whatever gas is around them, they mix because they have energy, kinetic energy, and no barrier to contain them.

    This is simple physics, with less energy, it would be a liquid, held by gravity, even less, a solid.

    Saying its caused by "god" sounds like something an alchemist or witch doctor would have said.


  • #276
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    There's a difference between saying 'I don't know', which I think is the position of most atheists and agnostics, and saying 'I don't know, therefore God' which seems to be what a lot of religionists want us to say.


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  • #277
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »
    There's a difference between saying 'I don't know', which I think is the position of most atheists and agnostics, and saying 'I don't know, therefore my god, my beliefs and what I say is true' which seems to be what a lot of religionists want us to say.

    fyp


  • #278
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    I demand a Pink Elephant forum.

    Respect my beliefs.


  • #279
    Valmont
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭Valmont


    How could you actually believe in a pink elephant? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It's undeniable that the dragon in my basement created the universe. I'll breath some fire for you.


  • #280
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    I demand a Pink Elephant forum.
    And a forum for Pink Elephant agnostics?


  • #281
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Stercus Accidit wrote: »
    The Mad Hatter wrote:
    There's a difference between saying 'I don't know, and if you don't agree you're either dishonest, contemptible or stupid, *sneer*', which I think is the position of most atheists and agnostics, and saying 'I don't know, therefore my god, my beliefs and what I say is true' which seems to be what a lot of religionists want us to say.
    fyp
    fyp


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  • #282
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    Hurin you confused me. I dont like sneery athiests but I've met about two as opposed to about a dozen sneery theists.
    Can one believe there is a chance of their being a god (forgetting about the stuff added on to this supposed creator e.g. homosexuality is wrong etc) and still be an aethiest? i.e. is an aethiest just believing in something he/she cannot be 100% sure of either?

    You can believe that at night sexy fairies dressed in pink flowers with little deelybopper antennae and epic boobs (for a fairy) come to steal your seed and that unless you hop up and down on one foot for 6 minutes they WILL COME FOR YOU. However while it might happen it probably doesn't. I think its absurd so I'm a fairy athiest. On the issue of a Jew-Xtn-Islam deity he may exist, however even if she does I don't particularly feel the need to worship it. So I accept that there's a possiblity of its existance but I am not sure and frankly I'm uninterested.
    I have seen no proof that there is a massive lion in my attic so I'm not going to call the zoo just yet. If I hear footprints and growling then I may believe in the lions existance.

    HERETIC !! ALL HAIL THE ATTIC LION !!
    There's a difference between saying 'I don't know', which I think is the position of most atheists and agnostics, and saying 'I don't know, therefore God' which seems to be what a lot of religionists want us to say.

    Surely by that logic any time a witness is in court and they are asked 'do you know how mr Dawkins was murder' then the witness says 'I dont know' must the court then conclude that it was God because of the 'I don't know ergo God did it' argument? It just doesn't make sense. I don't think any sensible religous people argue that to be fair.


  • #283
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Húrin wrote: »
    fyp

    Well. That was useful.


  • #284
    Rev. Kitchen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭Rev. Kitchen


    If you are an omnipresent being that can create plants and animals and planets and universe's isnt it quite conceivable that you would be able to hide yourself from a bunch of glorified monkeys ??


  • #285
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Kind of raises the question of "why?". The character of the Biblical God quite clearly tries to make himself known to humanity by blowing up cities, walking on water, drowning armies etc.

    Oddly enough the frequency with which he makes such obviously divine manifestations has decreased in proportion to the development of science and rationalism. Funny that.

    All we get these days are people claiming they speak for God. It stands to reason that a human created God would require humans to make himself known.


  • #286
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Zillah wrote: »
    All we get these days are people claiming they speak for God. It stands to reason that a human created God would require humans to make himself known.

    And the virgin Mary appearing in people's toast, of course she aint the only one...

    michael-jackson-toast.jpg


  • #287
    aidan24326
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    Galvasean wrote: »
    And the virgin Mary appearing in people's toast, of course she aint the only one...

    michael-jackson-toast.jpg

    Looks more like Michael Jackson to me.


  • #288
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    aidan24326 wrote: »
    Looks more like Michael Jackson to me.
    I am totally seeing Michael Jackson in there too.


  • #289
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Dades wrote: »
    I am totally seeing Michael Jackson in there too.

    My buttocks clenched similarily....


  • #290
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    I can't believe how much like Michael Jackson that toast image looks.:eek:


  • #291
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Its simply uncanny! :eek:

    attachment.php?attachmentid=75568&stc=1&d=1237897626


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  • #292
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    All Hail the Toast God Michael Jackson.
    May He be always crunchy and Golden-Brown.
    May the melty butter of compassion drip down from him onto us!


  • #293
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Do we get tax benefits yet?


  • #294
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    Zillah wrote: »
    Do we get tax benefits yet?

    Soon...


  • #295
    Calibos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,814 ✭✭✭Calibos


    Its a photoshop TBH. Its too much like MJ. I remember being fooled by the Dogs Boll@cks Jesus. I won't be fooled again!


  • #296
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Calibos wrote: »
    Its a photoshop TBH. Its too much like MJ. I remember being fooled by the Dogs Boll@cks Jesus. I won't be fooled again!

    Dogs Bollocks Jesus?


  • #297
    Calibos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,814 ✭✭✭Calibos


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    Dogs Bollocks Jesus?

    http://nynerd.com/can-you-see-jesus/:D


  • #298
    acontadino
    Closed Accounts Posts: 335 ✭✭acontadino


    i used to think a world with religion made existence have greater feeling, made us humans feel closer together, but actually i changed, the fact everything in earth is related in some form is kinda humbling...i mean some say our life formed because an asteroid hit earth from outer space....its kinda special in a way. ok we're far removed from back then but i just feel more positive and its a far better option than a subjective(or maby the words objective) god. even if god did exist it would be very unsettling for me.


  • #299
    marti8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭marti8


    Galvasean wrote: »
    And the virgin Mary appearing in people's toast, of course she aint the only one...

    michael-jackson-toast.jpg

    Where's his beard? ;)

    p.s: by the way, what's an agnostic atheist?! Thanks


  • #300
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    marti8 wrote: »
    p.s: by the way, what's an agnostic atheist?! Thanks
    Have a read here.


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