Atheism: how can you be so sure?

thebaldsoprano · 24-07-2008 8:03pm

Dades wrote: »

Oh, I'm sorry - did I misread this post of yours?

You misread the question in it, yes..

In any case, I agree that regarding such an assessment as impossible is fair enough, maybe best to just leave it at that.

Dades wrote: »

I have given you the benefit of the doubt, but you will leave me no choice if you continue your troll like behavior.

Okay, I can well understand how some of the posts might be considered toll like, I'll make an effort to tone it down. Debating with a few people who throw the same illogical argument at you repeatedly and try to drag you off in tangents is really very frustrating though, and in fairness where people did refrain from such tactics I kept the the replies courteous, whether I agreed with them or not.

Apart from the use of ad hominem, the rest of the content was genuine and not intended to be troll like.

MrPudding · 24-07-2008 9:16pm

Flamed Diving wrote: »

You gotta love this line of reasoning: 'We don't know how the universe was created yet, therefore it must have been a creator'

Reminds me of the Eddie Izzard segment in the Secret Policeman's Ball. Can't remember the exact words but a small extract goes along the lines of....."so we have the theory of evolution, it's a theory and it has a few problems, there are a number of holes. So we take those holes and fill them with fcuking magic......" Excellent performance if you can get your hands on it.

MrP

Dades · 24-07-2008 10:10pm

thebaldsoprano wrote:

maybe best to just leave it at that.

Indeed.

thebaldsoprano · 24-07-2008 11:36pm

Dades wrote: »

Indeed.

Okay, apologies for my comment about delusions, that was OTT.

However, suggesting that my question at best be asked in another forum if at all is also troll like.

The phrase "double standards" comes to mind for no particular reason.

Looks like it'll be exceptionally difficult to defend any point of view here in future because of this, thus I might as well be barred.

Thanks for the debate and see ye in the next life!

Dave! · 24-07-2008 11:42pm

Seeya mate

Dades · 25-07-2008 9:38am

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Looks like it'll be exceptionally difficult to defend any point of view here in future because of this, thus I might as well be barred.

You keep fighting the powah. I'm not banning you just so you feel more oppressed.

You've said you're leaving, so best of luck.

Flamed Diving · 25-07-2008 9:53am

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Okay, apologies for my comment about delusions, that was OTT.

However, suggesting that my question at best be asked in another forum if at all is also troll like.

The phrase "double standards" comes to mind for no particular reason.

Looks like it'll be exceptionally difficult to defend any point of view here in future because of this, thus I might as well be barred.

Thanks for the debate and see ye in the next life!

Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out...

kelly1 · 25-07-2008 10:39am

steve-hosting36 wrote: »

To state that god is 'simple' within his/it's own definition is a tougher pill to swallow than his existence in the first place

I'm out of my depth on this one but it intuitively it makes sense to me. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_simplicity

steve-hosting36 wrote: »

Things can 'come into being' without having been 'created' with intent.

How can something come from nothing unless it is created? Please explain.

The alternative is that the universe came from a previous universe or is a one of many universes within a super universe and that the universe(s)/super universe has always existed in some shape or form.

This is one for the philosophy forum but I would expect that something which changes, e.g. our universe, can't exist eternally. Science confirms that the universe had a beginning. Science can't answer the question as to what happened before the big bang so we have the hand the question over to theologians and philosophers.

steve-hosting36 wrote: »

Why attribute things we don't yet understand to a supernatural being?

I really don't see how it's possible that the universe has existed eternally. Wouldn't this imply that the universe would have reached a state of maximum entrophy and would be just some kind of big homogenous blob? Again I really don't know. I need to think about this a bit more. Or maybe not lest my brain fries

MrPudding · 25-07-2008 11:27am

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm out of my depth on this one but it intuitively it makes sense to me. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_simplicity

I am not particularly good at this stuff either, but I will give it a bash. I think you are talking about slightly different things here. Devine simplicity is not the same a scientific or real world simplicity. When Steve uses the term simple he is not talking about some christian god worshiping meaning of the word. He simply means simple. If you walk into a room and there is a laptop on a desk there are a number of things you can believe about how the laptop got there. You could believe that the last occupant of the room left it there, for example. You might also choose to believe that it magically appeared there. One of those options is simpler than the other. That someone left it there is a simpler explanation than it magically appeared. We already have the tools to explain how someone might leave it there, but we do not have the tools to explain how it was put there magically. Simple.

kelly1 wrote: »

How can something come from nothing unless it is created? Please explain.

Who knows? We don’t know enough to give an intelligent answer to that. Brains much bigger than ours are working on it. Maybe we will find out eventually.

kelly1 wrote: »

The alternative is that the universe came from a previous universe or is a one of many universes within a super universe and that the universe(s)/super universe has always existed in some shape or form.

Maybe. Who knows….

kelly1 wrote: »

This is one for the philosophy forum but I would expect that something which changes, e.g. our universe, can't exist eternally. Science confirms that the universe had a beginning. Science can't answer the question as to what happened before the big bang so we have the hand the question over to theologians and philosophers.

Just because science can’t answer the question does not mean we have to give up and say it is magic. Why do we have to hand it over to theologians and philosophers? Are they better at physics or something? And seriously, theologians? Why would we ask them what happened before the big bang?

kelly1 wrote: »

I really don't see how it's possible that the universe has existed eternally. Wouldn't this imply that the universe would have reached a state of maximum entrophy and would be just some kind of big homogenous blob? Again I really don't know. I need to think about this a bit more. Or maybe not lest my brain fries

I expect that is why you, like most of us, are not theoretical physicists. We all have these questions. And they are really big questions. Personally I prefer to wait for science. I am comfortable with the thought that we don’t know everything. I am also comfortable with the thought that we may never know. I feel no urge to believe that some magical entity created it.

MrP

Dades · 25-07-2008 11:47am

kelly1 wrote: »

Science can't answer the question as to what happened before the big bang so we have the hand the question over to theologians and philosophers.

Why don't they hammer out a cure for cancer while they're at it!

Zombrex · 25-07-2008 11:56am

kelly1 wrote: »

How can something come from nothing unless it is created? Please explain.

In quantum physics things come from nothing all the time. Of course it depends on how you define "nothing".

kelly1 wrote: »

Science can't answer the question as to what happened before the big bang so we have the hand the question over to theologians and philosophers.

Theologians and philosophers can't answer it either. They simply guess with no way of finding out if they are right or not. That is exactly what science doesn't do, which is a good thing.

And science can't answer the question now. It may in the future we don't know. It is as impossible to say it won't as it is to say it will.

kelly1 wrote: »

I really don't see how it's possible that the universe has existed eternally.

That is really irrelevant to whether or not it has or hasn't. Most people can't understand the nature of the universe, even the geniuses who are working on the problem.

One of the first things to learn is that the universe is a lot weirder than humans can easily imagine.

toiletduck · 25-07-2008 12:40pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Science can't answer the question as to what happened before the big bang so we have the hand the question over to theologians and philosophers.

Why?

Jeez God of the gaps indeed.

Galvasean · 25-07-2008 1:03pm

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Okay, apologies for my comment about delusions, that was OTT.

However, suggesting that my question at best be asked in another forum if at all is also troll like.

The phrase "double standards" comes to mind for no particular reason.

Looks like it'll be exceptionally difficult to defend any point of view here in future because of this, thus I might as well be barred.

Thanks for the debate and see ye in the next life!

Can't win an argument? Scream conspiracy.

thebaldsoprano · 25-07-2008 7:26pm

Dades wrote: »

You keep fighting the powah. I'm not banning you just so you feel more oppressed.

You've said you're leaving, so best of luck.

This is exactly my point...

Just ignore my argument and make some remark about 'the powah' that also claims to know how I'm feeling.

Yet if I bring up the point of possible delusions regarding said claims - bing bong you're gone.

Just do the damn deed and follow your convictions for a change.

As for the other posters' little snide remarks, ehm, right.

Dave! You seem to be the only person here with a sense of humour, how do stand it? It was a pleasure debating with you, and best of luck!

Flamed Diving · 25-07-2008 7:39pm

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

This is exactly my point...

Just ignore my argument and make some remark about 'the powah' that also claims to know how I'm feeling.

Yet if I bring up the point of possible delusions regarding said claims - bing bong you're gone.

Just do the damn deed and follow your convictions for a change.

As for the other posters' little snide remarks, ehm, right.

Dave! You seem to be the only person here with a sense of humour, how do stand it? It was a pleasure debating with you, and best of luck!

You've blotted your copybook here lad. Uber-pwnership on a cosmic scale.

Dades · 25-07-2008 8:20pm

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

bing bong you're gone

Nothing to see here anymore, people. Move along.

axer · 25-07-2008 8:54pm

kelly1 wrote: »

How can something come from nothing unless it is created? Please explain.

Then how can god exist? did god come from nothing or just exist? You say one thing but then allow yourself to apply a different rule to your god.

kelly1 · 25-07-2008 9:14pm

axer wrote: »

Then how can god exist? did god come from nothing or just exist? You say one thing but then allow yourself to apply a different rule to your god.

I've been claiming all along the God is eternal which implies that He was never created. There is no infinite chain of gods, just one eternal God. The only position I've changed is that I went from saying everything has a cause to saying everything except God has a cause.

BTW, it really bugs me when people say "your god". He's your God too!

Flamed Diving · 25-07-2008 9:27pm

kelly1 wrote: »

I've been claiming all along the God is eternal which implies that He was never created. There is no infinite chain of gods, just one eternal God. The only position I've changed is that I went from saying everything has a cause to saying everything except God has a cause.

BTW, it really bugs me when people say "your god". He's your God too!

No, he is your god. Even if it exists, I want nothing to do with that malevolent prick. Now, I don't see how you can have a problem with the concept of an eternal universe, but not an eternal god. Why does the universe require creation?

Standman · 25-07-2008 11:22pm

kelly1 wrote: »

OK, I see what you mean. So strictly speaking it's not true to say everything has a cause because God and only God breaks this rule. Does that make sense to you?

Ok, but the universe did have a beginning which surely means something created it out of nothing. The alternative is that the universe is eternal which raises all kinds of problems. I'm not a physicist but wouldn't the laws of thermodynamics exclude the possibility of an eternal universe?

I think that it is very hard for a human being to comprehend a place completely devoid of anything, including time. This is why we try to understand it by applying the rules of our universe and what we see around us when attempting to get our heads around it. I mean, I have already done it in the first sentence, by calling it a "place". This is why I would be reluctant to say that the beginning of the universe must have had a cause. It is very hard to comprehend how something may have came from nothing, because being human we assume that everything has a cause.

I think it may be similar to prehistoric man attempting to comprehend the stars.

I don't understand it, nobody else does, all we can do is speculate. For you you to state with any certainty that there must have been a creator is in my mind a complete fallacy.

I think what the argument boils down to is your Christian belief in a God, and that is a whole other matter.

MrPudding · 26-07-2008 12:13am

kelly1 wrote: »

BTW, it really bugs me when people say "your god". He's your God too!

What would you have us say? He is not my god. If he did, which I very much doubt, exist why would any sane person want anything to do with such a petty, narrow minded, evil, manipulating, two faced cnut?

MrP

Dades · 26-07-2008 9:42am

Jeez, people.

That's a lot of vitriol for something you don't believe is real.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 26-07-2008 9:46am

it's easier to hate imaginary friends, they don't have feelings to hurt.

--edit

also, kelly1 much

.

Beruthiel · 26-07-2008 9:50am

kelly1 wrote: »

BTW, it really bugs me when people say "your god". He's your God too!

I find comments like that unbelievably condescending.

Zillah · 27-07-2008 6:08pm

robindch wrote: »

Physicists simply don't know, though they are working on it.

Higgs boson baby!

Galvasean · 27-07-2008 6:28pm

This thread is still going?
Oh. Your. God.

axer · 27-07-2008 6:38pm

kelly1 wrote: »

I've been claiming all along the God is eternal which implies that He was never created. There is no infinite chain of gods, just one eternal God. The only position I've changed is that I went from saying everything has a cause to saying everything except God has a cause.

Exactly, you say God is the only exception to the rule without *any* proof whatsoever. How do you know this?

kelly1 wrote: »

BTW, it really bugs me when people say "your god". He's your God too!

Nope, he is not. I don't have a god. It really bugs me when people assume their god is ruler of everyone. I have gone independent.

Zillah · 27-07-2008 8:07pm

Dades wrote: »

That's a lot of vitriol for something you don't believe is real.

I think its more a chance to express incredulity to a believer that they could actually love/respect/obey the malefic tyrant presented in the Bible. The vitriol is unfairly being placed at the feet of an imaginary entity rather than those who adore him.

Sycophants. I wonder if so many people would profess love for God if he wasn't almighty.

Zombrex · 28-07-2008 12:03pm

kelly1 wrote: »

I've been claiming all along the God is eternal which implies that He was never created. There is no infinite chain of gods, just one eternal God. The only position I've changed is that I went from saying everything has a cause to saying everything except God has a cause.

Then everything doesn't have a cause. And if your god doesn't need a cause then surely there are other things that don't need a cause. I mean if something as complex as an emotional intelligence can exist without needing a cause, then anything can exist without needing a cause

kelly1 wrote: »

BTW, it really bugs me when people say "your god". He's your God too!

Well he is your god. There are plenty of other gods out there that are a lot different to your one.

kelly1 · 28-07-2008 12:22pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Then everything doesn't have a cause. And if your god doesn't need a cause then surely there are other things that don't need a cause. I mean if something as complex as an emotional intelligence can exist without needing a cause, then anything can exist without needing a cause

I already admitted in post #201 that everything doesn't have to have a cause with God being the only being without a cause.

What do you mean by emotional intelligence can exist without needing a cause?

Can you give any example of something that happens in this universe without a cause?

I asked a question earlier about an universe that exists eternally. Does anyone here think this is possible? What would the implications be? What would prevent things grinding to a halt? Isn't the inflation of our own universe accelerating?

Atheism: how can you be so sure?

Comments