Atheism: how can you be so sure?

eoin5

pH wrote: »

Then by most common definitions you are an atheist. The word Theist describes someone who believes in a personal, intervening, rule-giving type of God (Christianity, Islam etc), and at its simplest the word atheist means "not-theist". By this definition all agnostics are atheists.

Im an agnostic theist. To me these definitions make the most sense:

Noun 1. theist - one who believes in the existence of a god or gods

Noun 1. agnostic - a person who believes that it is impossible to know whether God exists

The two certainly arent mutually exclusive.

pH

eoin5 wrote: »

Im an agnostic theist. To me these definitions make the most sense:

Noun 1. theist - one who believes in the existence of a god or gods

Noun 1. agnostic - a person who believes that it is impossible to know whether God exists

The two certainly arent mutually exclusive.

How so? some hair-splitting about definition of the words "know" and "believe"?

Are you equally Agnostic and Theistic about all Gods? You believe in Krishna as much as Christ and Allah and are equally unsure about the certainty of existence of any of them?

As I said anyway, belief in the existence of a God is a poor distinction for practical purposes anyway as it doesn't clarify the Deists (those who have some vague belief in some sort of supernatural prime mover - but not a personal God).

axer

Malari wrote: »

Do you find that being an atheist has negative connotations? How so?

I don't but when it has come up in conversation it seems a few that I have met/am friends with seem to see it in a negative way. Much like the way my mother used to call myself and my brothers and sisters pagans when we didn't go to mass.

Malari wrote: »

I think it's a perfectly reasonable position and much easier to explain and back up your arguments for so being than if you were religious.

It is but I don't think all people that are religious or are brought up in a religion see it that way. They see it as a cop-out of sorts (i think).

axer

extopia wrote: »

Atheists look for the evidence, see that there is none, and conclude that God does not exist.

It is not necessary to have an alternative proof for the creation of the Universe (for example) to discount God. There is simply no evidence, and that's enough.

Thats where I would have a problem with atheism (if that is what atheism is). No evidence is not enough for me to conlude when no alternative is there. The way I see it is that until we do know what is there i.e. nothing or something then no answer can be ruled out since there are still sooo many unknowns in the equation. I don't think someone should conclude on something until it has been proven the major unknowns at least i.e. how the world began, what was there before the universe, why did the universe begin, how can something come from nothing etc etc Many of these answers will more than likely never be answered.

Zombrex

eoin5 wrote: »

Im an agnostic theist. To me these definitions make the most sense:

Noun 1. theist - one who believes in the existence of a god or gods

Noun 1. agnostic - a person who believes that it is impossible to know whether God exists

The two certainly arent mutually exclusive.

That isn't really what (as far as I understand) an agnostic means.

An agnostic is someone who not only accepts the possibility of gods like the Christian god existing, but is open to the idea, they think it is plausible, though they wouldn't say they have enough information to actually pick a god.

Using the analogy of this thread, if you substitute "lion" for "mouse" in the attic I think most people would be agnostic about that. Having not seen or experienced the mouse themselves they cannot say that they know there is a mouse in the attic, but a mouse being in an attic is certainly a plausible and rational possibility.

eoin5

pH wrote: »

How so? some hair-splitting about definition of the words "know" and "believe"?

Are you equally Agnostic and Theistic about all Gods? You believe in Krishna as much as Christ and Allah and are equally unsure about the certainty of existence of any of them?

As I said anyway, belief in the existence of a God is a poor distinction for practical purposes anyway as it doesn't clarify the Deists (those who have some vague belief in some sort of supernatural prime mover - but not a personal God).

I've no idea about how you would go about quantizing agnosticism. What I can say is that my belief in a god is hopeful and totally irrational. It a bit like someone who believes Sunderland will win the champions league next year.

Galvasean

eoin5 wrote: »

bit like someone who believes Sunderland will win the champions league next year.

They won't?!!?

pH

eoin5 wrote: »

I've no idea about how you would go about quantizing agnosticism. What I can say is that my belief in a god is hopeful and totally irrational. It a bit like someone who believes Sunderland will win the champions league next year.

But to use your own analogy what would you say to someone who also believed that Man Utd and Chelsea will win the Champions league next year? Surely the statement "Sunderland will win" implies "All other teams will not win"

You say your belief in god is hopeful and irrational, but which God? Are you equally agnostic/theistic about all Gods? Zeus for example? Do you have a hopeful and irrational belief in Krishna? Are you atheistic about any Gods? Are you prepared to say that Neptune doesn't exist? What about pseudo Gods, are you hopeful that Xenu came here 75 million years ago with his followers?

eoin5

pH wrote: »

But to use your own analogy what would you say to someone who also believed that Man Utd and Chelsea will win the Champions league next year? Surely the statement "Sunderland will win" implies "All other teams will not win"

Next years champions league is in the future, I can believe my team is going to win but I can also believe that no-one can fortell the future. Its a hopefull irrational belief of the kind that humans are easily capable of.

I'm like an agnostic about everything. In other words I believe its impossible to know anything. The word 'is' bends our heads the wrong way. How do you really know Australia is there if youve never seen it, maybe its all just an elaborate ruse, how can you be absolutely sure? Even if you have seen it maybe those images were implanted into your brain by alieums. We all have our own subjective experience, or reality tunnels as Robert Anton Wilson describes it. To say you know something all boils down to a belief that you hold.

My godess is Eris (hail Eris!), there could be other gods but shes the one I'd like to exist the most so I've decided to believe in her. I could be wrong but I also believe that theres no way to tell if I am or not.

eoin5

Wicknight wrote: »

That isn't really what (as far as I understand) an agnostic means.

An agnostic is someone who not only accepts the possibility of gods like the Christian god existing, but is open to the idea, they think it is plausible, though they wouldn't say they have enough information to actually pick a god.

Using the analogy of this thread, if you substitute "lion" for "mouse" in the attic I think most people would be agnostic about that. Having not seen or experienced the mouse themselves they cannot say that they know there is a mouse in the attic, but a mouse being in an attic is certainly a plausible and rational possibility.

I wouldnt go along with the plausable part of that definition. I wonder what other peoples take on that is?

stereoroid

axer wrote: »

Thats where I would have a problem with atheism (if that is what atheism is). No evidence is not enough for me to conlude when no alternative is there. The way I see it is that until we do know what is there i.e. nothing or something then no answer can be ruled out since there are still sooo many unknowns in the equation. I don't think someone should conclude on something until it has been proven the major unknowns at least i.e. how the world began, what was there before the universe, why did the universe begin, how can something come from nothing etc etc Many of these answers will more than likely never be answered.

Well, yes - and again, where is it written that atheists have concluded anything? That the discussion is over, and the answer, to the question of the non-existence of all possible gods, is a definitive No?

If you go back to the origins of the term "atheism", it means "no theism" i.e. no positive beliefs in gods. It does not assume that the question can not be answered - that is agnosticism ("no knowledge"). On the other hand, it does not mean that the question has been answered with a Yes or a No.

When you see someone claim that atheists positively say "there are definitely no gods - 0% chance of it", I would be wary of that source. I suspect a religious motivation behind any such statement, with the aim of making atheists look illogical. Yes, that includes dictionaries, whether online or in book form. It rarely (if ever?) includes the atheists themselves - and could there be a better guide to what atheism is, and is not, than an atheist? Who do you trust - an old book, or a real-life example in your face?

So go ahead and call the existence of gods an open question: it doesn't stop me getting on with my life, and I don't need anyone else to tell me what to believe. Is that clear enough? I'm getting really hacked off with people putting words in my mouth, telling me what I do or do not believe. :mad:

barrrywalsh789

This is the best proof I've found so far. It's the Zeitgeist movies on Youtube, very good I think. For those you don't want to watch it, it basically says how the story of Jesus Christ mirrors tons of other people before him. ie, born on 25th December to a virgin mother, had 12 disciples/brothers/friends, betrayed by one for money, crucified, raise from the dead one the 3rd day. I think the 1st one with this storyline was Hontus, an Egyptian. As to where these stories began, it's simply star stories. For example, Orions belt (or the 3 kings as it was known back then) followed a bright star (Sirius, the closest star to Earth after the Sun) and found God's son, or God's Sun. This was probably made aaround December 25th aswell when the Sun is low in the sky, during a solstice. It appears dead and three days later starts starts to rise again. Watch the videos, they're very interesting!!

iUseVi

barrrywalsh789 wrote: »

This is the best proof I've found so far. It's the Zeitgeist movies on Youtube, very good I think. For those you don't want to watch it, it basically says how the story of Jesus Christ mirrors tons of other people before him. ie, born on 25th December to a virgin mother, had 12 disciples/brothers/friends, betrayed by one for money, crucified, raise from the dead one the 3rd day. I think the 1st one with this storyline was Hontus, an Egyptian. As to where these stories began, it's simply star stories. For example, Orions belt (or the 3 kings as it was known back then) followed a bright star (Sirius, the closest star to Earth after the Sun) and found God's son, or God's Sun. This was probably made aaround December 25th aswell when the Sun is low in the sky, during a solstice. It appears dead and three days later starts starts to rise again. Watch the videos, they're very interesting!!

Link? I'm too lazy to google. :rolleyes:

Sqaull20

I'm convinced anyone who claims to believe in god is on the wind up. If society had existed until now without reference to some make believe creature in the sky, then once it was suggested by a ''cleric'' that there was a ''divine power'' they'd be carted off to the local nut house.

Zeitgeist is good fun, but shouldnt be taken too seriously imo.

The suggestion that Christ only existed as an allegory of some sort is pretty crazy. Even the most hardcore skeptics generally agree that the historical record - both first-hand accounts from people of the faith as well as accounts from non-believers who lived at the same time as Christ - are more numerous and detailed than perhaps any other record of any other prominent historical figure within several hundred years of Christ’s time on earth. It is one argument to doubt Christ’s divinity, but it’s wishful thinking to pretend that he never exist at all.

A smart man once said, follow the money and you will get your answers..

What is the biggest selling book in the world?

Sqaull20

iUseVi wrote: »

Link? I'm too lazy to google. :rolleyes:

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/main.htm

barrrywalsh789

just search Zeitgeist on youtube or go to this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw
the rest is in the related video sections

kelly1

axer wrote: »

Hi all,

I am agnostic (I am pretty sure) and have recently just begun the process of leaving the catholic church because I don't believe we can know, at least at present (and am 99% we can never prove), whether there is (a) god(s) or not.

Hello Axer, I'm sorry to hear you're leaving the Church. I'm very fortunate that I have strong faith but that only came about after a trip to Lourdes. It is my experience that the more I learn about God, the more I want to learn about Him. It is also my experience that the more I try to please God, the more at peace I feel. There is nothing better than the feeling of God's grace working in your soul and living with a clear conscience.

axer wrote: »

Just like I don't believe that christians have any tangible proof of a god I am also thinking that aethiests could not possibly have any proof that there is no god either because there is too many unknowns when it comes to life, the begining etc? I believe that there is, if even just miniscule, a possibility that there is a god. Thus in my mind they (christians etc & aethiests) are one and the same i.e. believing in something that lacks proof.

From my experiences of debating with atheists, I've learned that many don't simply not believe in God, but actively work to promote atheism. e.g. coming onto the Christian forum and telling people that belief in God is foolish. Many so-called athiest are in fact anti-theists.

I've also heard too many strawman arguments. All this nonsense about not believing in flying teaposts, Santa Claus, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, Thor, Zeus, the tooth fairy etc, etc. Atheists tend focus on perceived negative points about God and don't seem to consider the possibility that God's wisdom is beyond their understanding.

I think atheism is a catch-22 situation. God is not going to reveal Himself unless the atheist makes a genuine and humble effort to seek Him. I don't see too many on this forum genuinely seeking God (I hope I'm wrong). I see too much arrogance and ridicule of believers. I can't recall anyone genuinely trying to understand the Christian position but instead I see atheists constantly trying to prove Christians wrong. There's no way anyone is going to find God with that kind of attitude.

James 4:6 But he giveth greater grace. Wherefore he saith: God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Matthew 11:29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls.

Matthew 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled: and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

2 Timothy 3:2 Men shall be lovers of themselves, covetous, haughty, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, wicked,

Galvasean

kelly1 wrote: »

I can't recall anyone genuinely trying to understand the Christian position but instead I see atheists constantly trying to prove Christians wrong. There's no way anyone is going to find God with that kind of attitude.

Can't recall huh? I think the OP made a fairly good attempt.

kelly1

Galvasean wrote: »

Can't recall huh? I think the OP made a fairly good attempt.

True, I agree.

Doctor DooM

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello Axer, I'm sorry to hear you're leaving the Church. I'm very fortunate that I have strong faith but that only came about after a trip to Lourdes. It is my experience that the more I learn about God, the more I want to learn about Him. It is also my experience that the more I try to please God, the more at peace I feel. There is nothing better than the feeling of God's grace working in your soul and living with a clear conscience.

From my experiences of debating with atheists, I've learned that many don't simply not believe in God, but actively work to promote atheism. e.g. coming onto the Christian forum and telling people that belief in God is foolish. Many so-called athiest are in fact anti-theists.

I've also heard too many strawman arguments. All this nonsense about not believing in flying teaposts, Santa Claus, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, Thor, Zeus, the tooth fairy etc, etc. Atheists tend focus on perceived negative points about God and don't seem to consider the possibility that God's wisdom is beyond their understanding.

I think atheism is a catch-22 situation. God is not going to reveal Himself unless the atheist makes a genuine and humble effort to seek Him. I don't see too many on this forum genuinely seeking God (I hope I'm wrong). I see too much arrogance and ridicule of believers. I can't recall anyone genuinely trying to understand the Christian position but instead I see atheists constantly trying to prove Christians wrong. There's no way anyone is going to find God with that kind of attitude.

People who believed in Zeus and Thor would think your belief in God is nonsense. not accepting that is the blinkered arrogance you are accusing atheists of. Belief in your god as opposed to their is not automatically less nonsense because more people do it now.

I was a Christian for many years Kelly but I simply cannot see what you see, I am sorry you cannot accept that and think it means I am being arrogant, or trying to disprove you, but I simply think God s you percieve it does not exist.

pclancy

Kelly1 Its not fair to tar us all with the same brush....I wouldnt encourage anyone to go into the christianity or any of the religous forums and insult those that believe in a god, thats just not nice and respectfull. But as an Athest I've also never actively tried to discourage anyone from following their religon, only asked for debate and tried to promote free thought and research. We're not all out to get you guys, I personally just feel a little dissapointed for you but happy that you're happy in your religous bubble.

Maybe also remember that we dont want to find god, nor do we worry that he is "beyond our wisdom" (a phrase i find insulting tbh) but that we are quite happy in our no-need-for-religon bubble and all is well here.

Please see my sig for further reading if required that satisfies my own wisdom.

Sqaull20

We are God..

We create, we kill, we do what we want, when we want

The only consequences for our actions, is what we or others choose it to be.

Anyone who deep down believes that some creature in the sky looks over ous/ made ous, is on the wind up imo..

What would be the reaction?

If we had existed until now without any reference to some god creature and then some random guy with a few followers, told the world of this God, who looks over ous all and is the creator of all life as we know it..

I would be in stitches myself

pH

kelly1 wrote: »

It is my experience that the more I learn about God, the more I want to learn about Him. It is also my experience that the more I try to please God, the more at peace I feel. There is nothing better than the feeling of God's grace working in your soul and living with a clear conscience.

...

Atheists tend focus on perceived negative points about God and don't seem to consider the possibility that God's wisdom is beyond their understanding.

And obviously neither do you. In the one post you manage to fundamentally undermine your argument, first telling us about your learning about God, and "pleasing" him, then trotting out the "beyond their understanding".

You make claims that you can learn about God, you make claims that you understand what this God wants so you can please him (his state of mind), then you say his wisdom is beyond understanding ... just his wisdom is it then Noel?

I've no real problem with the "beyond understanding" believers, they believe in a God but admit they've no idea what he wants or likes, so in all practical respects they're in exactly the same place as atheists. Now those like you who claim not only that God exists, but also claim you know exactly what he wants and likes, knowing the mind of God, that's just not sensible is it really if you think about it?

There's no way anyone is going to find God with that kind of attitude.

And there's no way Santa is coming to children who don't believe either!

unreggd

Call Me Jimmy

For me, the sheer number of different gods and religions throughout history is enough alone to reassure me it's all bull****.

aidan24326

kelly1 wrote: »

From my experiences of debating with atheists, I've learned that many don't simply not believe in God, but actively work to promote atheism. e.g. coming onto the Christian forum and telling people that belief in God is foolish.

Belief in god is foolish, exceptionally foolish. How many other things do you believe in that have absolutely no supporting evidence? I'll bet not too many. You believe in a personal god because you want to believe it, and that's fine, but that doesn't make it true anywhere outside of your head.

I've also heard too many strawman arguments. All this nonsense about not believing in flying teaposts, Santa Claus, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, Thor, Zeus, the tooth fairy etc, etc. Atheists tend focus on perceived negative points about God and don't seem to consider the possibility that God's wisdom is beyond their understanding.

I have to say I'm not a fan of all this teapot stuff myself. The fact that a universe (and us) exists at all suggests at least the possibility of a god/creator, there's at least a reason to postulate his/it's existence whereas talk of teapots and spaghetti monsters is just nonsense. I take it that's what you're getting at, and I agree with you up to a point. BUT, unfortunately this god of yours has the same supporting evidence as the teapot and the spaghetti monster, i.e none at all, so it's back to square one.

I see too much arrogance and ridicule of believers. I can't recall anyone genuinely trying to understand the Christian position but instead I see atheists constantly trying to prove Christians wrong. There's no way anyone is going to find God with that kind of attitude.

That's because christians ARE wrong. Call that arrogant if you like, but much of what the christian faith is based on is patently absurd, and you have to live in delusional cuckoo land to really believe it. And as for finding god, all I can say is if there is a god creator that god entity is going to be something beyond our level of understanding, so it is you and your christian brethren who are being extraordinarily arrogant (not to mention deluded) in claiming that you have an understanding of what that entity is. You don't. As Wicknight might say, you're just making sh1t up.

iUseVi

aidan24326 wrote: »

That's because christians ARE wrong. Call that arrogant if you like, but much of what the christian faith is based on is patently absurd, and you have to live in delusional cuckoo land to really believe it. And as for finding god, all I can say is if there is a god creator that god entity is going to be something beyond our level of understanding, so it is you and your christian brethren who are being extraordinarily arrogant (not to mention deluded) in claiming that you have an understanding of what that entity is. You don't. As Wicknight might say, you're just making sh1t up.

Indeed. The remarkable thing for me is that Christians believe a whole array of varying things. Papal infallibility, transubstantiation, polygamy, creationism, etc. They can't all be right. Just adds even more to the nonsense of other religions. They can't even be consistent among themselves.

axer

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello Axer, I'm sorry to hear you're leaving the Church. I'm very fortunate that I have strong faith but that only came about after a trip to Lourdes.

One of the things that has turned me off organised religions, at least catholicism anyway, is the "faith" argument. Whenever I had a question that nobody seemed to be able to answer I was always told to "have faith". This actually made me angry and I could not understand how people could just accept it as an answer. If they had been honest and just said "We don't know" then I wouldnt have been so turned off by the religion.

kelly1 wrote: »

It is my experience that the more I learn about God, the more I want to learn about Him.

Unfortunately my experience is quite the opposite in that the more I learned about the bible and the origins of catholicism the more I started to realise the extent of the input humans have had into creating the religion including the bible ultimately in creating god.

kelly1 wrote: »

It is also my experience that the more I try to please God, the more at peace I feel.

I am glad you feel peace with god. How do I know what god wants? How do you know what god wants?

kelly1 wrote: »

There is nothing better than the feeling of God's grace working in your soul and living with a clear conscience.

I don't think I could have that feeling because I cannot help but look logically and objectively at the whole idea.

kelly1 wrote: »

From my experiences of debating with atheists, I've learned that many don't simply not believe in God, but actively work to promote atheism. e.g. coming onto the Christian forum and telling people that belief in God is foolish. Many so-called athiest are in fact anti-theists.

I actually couldn't agree with you more there. That is my problem with athiesm although it is a complete generalisation. I, however, do not find it any worse that religious people trying to push their religion on me - but often I do not find it any better either. Either way I do not let others effect what I believe and I certainly will not raise my children with any one belief in particular. I will educated them on the different sides of the arguments from ALL religions and including athiesm etc but I will not force a belief upon them.

kelly1 wrote: »

I've also heard too many strawman arguments. All this nonsense about not believing in flying teaposts, Santa Claus, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, Thor, Zeus, the tooth fairy etc, etc. Atheists tend focus on perceived negative points about God and don't seem to consider the possibility that God's wisdom is beyond their understanding.

I agree. Often there is a cynicism towards religious organisations from athiests, from what I can see BUT I think that is because they believe what they believe as strong as you believe what you believe. I am sure you find it hard to understand how someone cannot believe in god. Now turn that around and you will see how they feel. They use a different argument against a god than you do for a god because it is a different argument.

kelly1 wrote: »

I think atheism is a catch-22 situation. God is not going to reveal Himself unless the atheist makes a genuine and humble effort to seek Him.

I have a major problem with that. Why won't god reveal himself without having to seek him out?

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't see too many on this forum genuinely seeking God (I hope I'm wrong). I see too much arrogance and ridicule of believers. I can't recall anyone genuinely trying to understand the Christian position but instead I see atheists constantly trying to prove Christians wrong. There's no way anyone is going to find God with that kind of attitude.

I have tried to understand the christian position but the more I looked into it the more I saw that everything was man made and all based on one or two people's accounts. I would never rely on just two people to find out what happened especially accounts that are from so long ago, were written many years after events and especially when they are such subjective accounts.

pH wrote: »

And obviously neither do you. In the one post you manage to fundamentally undermine your argument, first telling us about your learning about God, and "pleasing" him, then trotting out the "beyond their understanding".

You make claims that you can learn about God, you make claims that you understand what this God wants so you can please him (his state of mind), then you say his wisdom is beyond understanding ... just his wisdom is it then Noel?

I've no real problem with the "beyond understanding" believers, they believe in a God but admit they've no idea what he wants or likes, so in all practical respects they're in exactly the same place as atheists. Now those like you who claim not only that God exists, but also claim you know exactly what he wants and likes, knowing the mind of God, that's just not sensible is it really if you think about it?!

I have to agree with this. How can one know what god wants if god is beyond their understanding? It just seems like a "have faith" argument to me once again.

pH wrote: »

And there's no way Santa is coming to children who don't believe either!

I think it is these arguments kelly1 is talking about.

The way I see it is that I can still be a good person and not believe in god. If it turns out there is a god then I will just have to argue with him/her and ask him/her what was I supposed to do?

He/she gave me the facts, with the facts I had I made a decision. The evidence pointed towards something not existing, I didnt rule out the possibility of a creator but I had to go with what was more likely.

Besides if god is so arragant so as to chastise me for not worshipping him/her then I would have a problem with him/her anyway.

I believe it is more important to live a good moral life instead of worrying about something that there is no evidence for and that there can not be any evidence for either way.

Dades

kelly1 wrote: »

From my experiences of debating with atheists, I've learned that many don't simply not believe in God, but actively work to promote atheism. e.g. coming onto the Christian forum and telling people that belief in God is foolish. Many so-called athiest are in fact anti-theists.

Indeed, and many so-called Christians are actually anti-every-other-religion.

kelly1

pH wrote: »

And obviously neither do you. In the one post you manage to fundamentally undermine your argument, first telling us about your learning about God, and "pleasing" him, then trotting out the "beyond their understanding".

You make claims that you can learn about God, you make claims that you understand what this God wants so you can please him (his state of mind), then you say his wisdom is beyond understanding ... just his wisdom is it then Noel?

This may sound arrogant, but God cannot be understood without His grace within us. That is my personal experience.

pH wrote: »

I've no real problem with the "beyond understanding" believers, they believe in a God but admit they've no idea what he wants or likes, so in all practical respects they're in exactly the same place as atheists. Now those like you who claim not only that God exists, but also claim you know exactly what he wants and likes, knowing the mind of God, that's just not sensible is it really if you think about it?

God is certainly not wanting in telling us what He expects from us. It's a tall order but Jesus asked us to "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect". This is our ultimate goal. To reach perfection, we have guidance from scripture, the Church, the writing of the saints, papal encyclicals etc. All of these things are the work of the Holy Spirit through humans.

There will always be grey areas that require prayer and careful reflection in order to know how best to proceed.