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Atheism: how can you be so sure?

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13567…10

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    #62
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    This may sound arrogant, but God cannot be understood without His grace within us. That is my personal experience.

    What is it with you guys and these nonsense paradoxes.

    If you cannot understand God without his grace within you, then you have no frame of reference to judge that in the first place. All you know is that you have changed. For all you know you lost God's grace.


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    #63
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    kelly1 wrote: »
    There will always be grey areas that require prayer and careful reflection in order to know how best to proceed.
    It's careful reflection that led me to the conclusion that God didn't exist.

    Sometimes thinking's a dangerous thing!


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    #64
    axer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    kelly1 wrote: »
    This may sound arrogant, but God cannot be understood without His grace within us. That is my personal experience.
    How does one put his grace into oneself in order to understand?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    God is certainly not wanting in telling us what He expects from us. It's a tall order but Jesus asked us to "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect".
    When did god tell us what he expects from us?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    This is our ultimate goal. To reach perfection, we have guidance from scripture
    from humans/not from god
    kelly1 wrote: »
    the Church
    from humans/not from god
    kelly1 wrote: »
    the writing of the saints
    from humans/not from god
    kelly1 wrote: »
    papal encyclicals etc.
    from humans/not from god
    kelly1 wrote: »
    All of these things are the work of the Holy Spirit through humans.
    How do you know its the work of the holy spirit and not just the work of the humans?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    There will always be grey areas that require prayer and careful reflection in order to know how best to proceed.
    How does prayer tell you how to continue? Is prayer a two way communication?


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    #65
    Promethean
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Promethean


    we are beings of flesh and bone, religion god, heaven and hell , concepts of man, dreamt up, these ideas served and perhaps still do serve a purpose, they've helped a primative people live a more civilised existance, ease suffering by giving irrational hope, the truth is that we have no idea how everything came into exisance, and our possible comprehension of such things is limited anyway, so people shoulde believe what ever makes them most happy whatever helps them get through........


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    #66
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Promethean wrote: »
    we are beings of flesh and bone, religion god, heaven and hell , concepts of man, dreamt up, these ideas served and perhaps still do serve a purpose, they've helped a primative people live a more civilised existance, ease suffering by giving irrational hope, the truth is that we have no idea how everything came into exisance, and our possible comprehension of such things is limited anyway, so people shoulde believe what ever makes them most happy whatever helps them get through........

    But the truth is what people commonly/collectively believe can make others and even themselves unhappy and can stunt the growth of otherwise healthy(physically/mentally) people.


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    #67
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    axer wrote: »
    One of the things that has turned me off organised religions, at least catholicism anyway, is the "faith" argument. Whenever I had a question that nobody seemed to be able to answer I was always told to "have faith". This actually made me angry and I could not understand how people could just accept it as an answer. If they had been honest and just said "We don't know" then I wouldnt have been so turned off by the religion.
    I can see both sides of the argument. Priests in particular should be well able to defend their faith. Most of us don't accept things at face value when it comes to the supernatural and this is healthy. There's no end to lies and trickery to trap us on the road to God. So we need to have a healthy skepticism. On the other hand cynicism isn't good and this is the downfall of many. Time and time again I see people refusing to believe in the possibility of the existence of a God who is loving, merciful and good beyond words. In a way this is arrogant because it suggests that we are as good as it gets and that there is no higher good. Of course the world has the general effect of making us cynical. We put our hope in false gods/idols/science and become discouraged, cynical and without hope. To believe that we die and become food for worms is to live without hope.

    There are some things about God which we will never know this side of eternity e.g. can non-christians be saved, what percentage of us will be saved etc. God has chosen not to reveal these things to us. Some things about God will always be a mystery but we can have a very good guess at the answers based on our knowledge of God's ways.
    axer wrote: »
    Unfortunately my experience is quite the opposite in that the more I learned about the bible and the origins of catholicism the more I started to realise the extent of the input humans have had into creating the religion including the bible ultimately in creating god.
    What you seem to be suggesting is that God isn't capable of delivering the truth to us without corruption! Jesus revealed the truth to the apostles and this same truth is preserved to this day in the Catholic Church. And beware of the strawmen arguments about changing doctines. There aren't any.
    axer wrote: »
    How do I know what god wants? How do you know what god wants?
    That's simple. God never abandoned us in the wilderness without a compass. We have the bible and we have the Church. Yes the Church has often sinned but it's teachings are a true guide to God. The Church has the god-given authority to teach in God's name. If you don't believe this, you have to admit that God has left us to our own devices to find the truth. Even the word of God is open to different interpretations so it *alone* is not a sure way to find the truth. It can only be correctly and infallibly interpreted by those who have the authorith to do so. i.e the Magisterium (teaching authority) of the Church. God has provided all we need to find the truth. As Christ said, "I am with you always, to the end of days".
    axer wrote: »
    I have a major problem with that. Why won't god reveal himself without having to seek him out?
    That's the way God works. "God resisteth the proud, but to the humble he giveth grace." Pride has to be the greatest of all sins. God doesn't reveal themselves to sinners unless they acknowledge that they need His help and forgiveness.
    axer wrote: »
    I have tried to understand the christian position but the more I looked into it the more I saw that everything was man made and all based on one or two people's accounts. I would never rely on just two people to find out what happened especially accounts that are from so long ago, were written many years after events and especially when they are such subjective accounts.
    Only two?? What about all the prophets of the Old Testament and the twelve apostles and the Early Church Fathers etc...
    axer wrote: »
    I have to agree with this. How can one know what god wants if god is beyond their understanding? It just seems like a "have faith" argument to me once again.
    God only gives us understanding when we pray for understanding. Knowledge of God comes to us via grace.
    axer wrote: »
    The way I see it is that I can still be a good person and not believe in god. If it turns out there is a god then I will just have to argue with him/her and ask him/her what was I supposed to do?
    Unbelief is never good in God's eyes. Our good deeds are always pleasing to Him but are *far* more pleasing when done out of love for Him.
    axer wrote: »
    He/she gave me the facts, with the facts I had I made a decision. The evidence pointed towards something not existing, I didnt rule out the possibility of a creator but I had to go with what was more likely.
    Do you think you have exhausted all the avenues in trying to find God? Did you give up too easily? On that note, I would highly recommend a book called "The Fulfillment of All Desire" by Ralph Martin:-
    http://www.amazon.com/Fulfillment-All-Desire-Ralph-Martin/dp/1931018367/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213101836&sr=1-1
    axer wrote: »
    Besides if god is so arragant so as to chastise me for not worshipping him/her then I would have a problem with him/her anyway.
    I think your view assumes that we have some kind of equality or comparability to God? We don't. All the good we do comes from God whether we realize it or not. The Holy Spirit works with everyone, sinner and saint alike, constantly trying to draw them closer to God. So you see it's wrong for us to claim to be good while in fact it is God's grace working within us. That's why it's arrogant for an atheist to claim that he/she doesn't need God in order to be good.
    axer wrote: »
    I believe it is more important to live a good moral life instead of worrying about something that there is no evidence for and that there can not be any evidence for either way.
    That certainly is a common belief. But to deny ones Creator and His wishes is pure madness.

    God bless,
    Noel.


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    #68
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    axer wrote: »
    How does one put his grace into oneself in order to understand?
    You don't and that makes no sense if you think about it. Grace is freely given by God and not earned. God gives His grace when sees us open to it, i.e. willing to do His will, which is always for our ultimate good.
    axer wrote: »
    When did god tell us what he expects from us?
    He spoke through the prophets and Jesus especially.
    axer wrote: »
    from humans/not from god

    from humans/not from god

    from humans/not from god

    from humans/not from god
    What do you expect? A booming voice from Heaven that the whole world can hear? A clearly audible voice in every mind? As I asked before, do you think God is incapable is delivering the truth to us without corruption? To suggest this would be to underestimate God's power and providence.
    axer wrote: »
    How does prayer tell you how to continue? Is prayer a two way communication?
    Yes it is actually two way. It is very rare that someone hears a voice or has a vision and to look for such is a mistake because it leaves us open to deception by the devil. God communicates with us via scripture. Scripture is living because it contains the power of God's word. It speaks to our hearts. God also communicate to us via holy inspirations. When we remain open to doing God's will and give up our own selfish will, God prompts us to do what He wants us to do via the Holy Spirit.
    But this has to be experienced to be believed.


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    #69
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Time and time again I see people refusing to believe in the possibility of the existence of a God who is loving, merciful and good beyond words.
    That's because, coincidentally, the world looks exactly as it would do if there was no loving, merciful God.

    Your chances of having a fair life are almost entirely dependent on where, and to whom you are born. I see no divine mercy for the millions of children dying of disease and hunger because they happened to be born into poverty in countries with harsh climates.


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    #70
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    ...To suggest this would be to underestimate God's power and providence..

    Yet you do it all the time when regurgitate this fairy tail crap.


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    #71
    eoin5
    Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    kelly1 wrote: »
    That certainly is a common belief. But to deny ones Creator and His wishes is pure madness.

    God bless,
    Noel.

    I dont think I've ever read so much illogical sales pitching in my life Noel, that last line is straight out of the used car salesman handbook. Have you anything better to offer? Any evidence, or is it all just speculation (because its written in a book doesnt cut it)? Axer seems far from cynical, but have you something solid to show.

    Personally the idea of sending someone fishing in the dark until they find what theyre looking for is sending them a step towards neurosis.


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    #72
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    kelly1 wrote: »
    What do you expect? A booming voice from Heaven that the whole world can hear? A clearly audible voice in every mind? As I asked before, do you think God is incapable is delivering the truth to us without corruption? To suggest this would be to underestimate God's power and providence.

    Why not the booming voice from the skies? Isn't this how he used to do it not so long ago, if the supposed "word" of god in the bible is to be believed. Why is he hiding if he exists?

    :confused:


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    #73
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    eoin5 wrote: »
    I dont think I've ever read so much illogical sales pitching in my life Noel, that last line is straight out of the used car salesman handbook. Have you anything better to offer? Any evidence, or is it all just speculation (because its written in a book doesnt cut it)? Axer seems far from cynical, but have you something solid to show.
    I see God's "fingerprints" in lots of places. When I started learning about Christianity, I wasn't just a case of, yeah, that sounds good, I'll give it a whirl. It was a case of "knowing", a very strong conviction, that I had finally found the truth. I just "know" that it's true. I feel it in my soul, not intellectualy. Nothing is going to shake my faith in Jesus my Saviour. Jesus isn't called the Good Shepherd for nothing. The world is full of wolves in sheeps clothing.


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    #74
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Malari wrote: »
    Why not the booming voice from the skies? Isn't this how he used to do it not so long ago, if the supposed "word" of god in the bible is to be believed. Why is he hiding if he exists?

    :confused:
    God isn't hiding. Don't knock what you haven't tried.
    Apocalypse 3:20 Behold, I stand at the gate, and knock. If any man shall hear my voice, and open to me the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


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    #75
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    why doesn't god make an appearance and tell everyone once and for all which religion is the right one? would save us all a hell of a lot of trouble.


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    #76
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    God isn't hiding. Don't knock what you haven't tried.

    Look who's talking.


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    #77
    eoin5
    Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I see God's "fingerprints" in lots of places. When I started learning about Christianity, I wasn't just a case of, yeah, that sounds good, I'll give it a whirl. It was a case of "knowing", a very strong conviction, that I had finally found the truth. I just "know" that it's true. I feel it in my soul, not intellectualy. Nothing is going to shake my faith in Jesus my Saviour. Jesus isn't called the Good Shepherd for nothing. The world is full of wolves in sheeps clothing.

    Ill take that as a no then.


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    #78
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    eoin5 wrote: »
    ill Take That As A No Then.

    Roflmao.


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    #79
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    kelly1 wrote: »
    God isn't hiding. Don't knock what you haven't tried.

    What I haven't tried? I really don't understand this. You claim he's not hiding, yet he's nowhere to be seen....so he's just not bothered to show up? Why do I have to look for him if he's not hiding? Indeed, why SHOULD I?

    And you don't know what I've tried or what my background in religion is so you can't really say I haven't tried.


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    #80
    Charlie3dan
    Registered Users Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    kelly1 wrote: »
    It was a case of "knowing", a very strong conviction, that I had finally found the truth. I just "know" that it's true. I feel it in my soul, not intellectualy. Nothing is going to shake my faith in Jesus my Saviour.

    Your arguement would be much more convincing if you had kept your mind open.

    It's great that you have decided what your beliefs are, but to close off your mind to everything................finding it hard to finish that sentenance without being insulting.


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    #81
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Mordances with the proletariat wrote: »
    why doesn't god make an appearance and tell everyone once and for all which religion is the right one? would save us all a hell of a lot of trouble.
    He did, in the form of Jesus! Unfortunately the Pharisees were expecting a great military leader and didn't like Jesus telling them off when they corrupted the will of God to suit themselves.

    "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life". "No man comes to the Father, except through me". "I am the light of the world" etc, etc.


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    #82
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    He did, in the form of Jesus!

    Yes, it is funny how "God" always makes an appearance in a form (such as a human) that it entirely in keeping with a universe where he doesn't exist. :rolleyes:


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    #83
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Yeah, just keep laughing guys. I don't mean this vindictively, but you will regret it one day. Over and out.


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    #84
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    rofl

    there is but one god and mohammed is his messenger, you'll find this out soon enough kelly.


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    #85
    DeeColl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38 ✭DeeColl


    Hi Axer,
    I too have been having issues with the Catholic Religion, as of the past year or 2 I have stopped calling myself Catholic coz (1) I'm ashamed to be associated with a religion that abuses kids and then tries to hide it (2) doensnt allow priest to marry (3) doesnt believe in sex before marriage - even though they will marry you when its quite blatant that you have had sex (little mary or joe as a flowergirl/pageboy at the wedding!) (4) discriminate against gays (5) will only marry you provided you have kids etc etc I could go on forever, what kind of an effed up religion is that? I do believe there is a God at least I think I do, or there is definatley something out there, and I dont think anyone will ever know until they actually die. But I'm certainly not going to believe in something just because my parents/family believed in it, everyone should be allowed to make up there own minds, I certainly wont be forcing it on my kids.


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    #86
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I don't mean this vindictively, but you will regret it one day.

    No, actually we won't.


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    #87
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Malari wrote: »
    Why is he hiding if he exists?

    :confused:

    Because we developed technology capable of killing him?


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    #88
    axer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Time and time again I see people refusing to believe in the possibility of the existence of a God who is loving, merciful and good beyond words.
    How do you know he is loving, merciful and good beyond words? You are just going on what others said that he is?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    In a way this is arrogant because it suggests that we are as good as it gets and that there is no higher good.
    No arrogance would be thinking we are better but you seem to suggest that god is better than us or thinks he/she/it is better than us - that seems arrogant to me.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Of course the world has the general effect of making us cynical. We put our hope in false gods/idols/science and become discouraged, cynical and without hope.
    If I was to put my faith (a word I hate because it basically is blindly believing something) in a god - who is to say the christian god is the actually real god?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    To believe that we die and become food for worms is to live without hope.
    I am thinking religion is only about hope? i.e. believe whatever keeps you happy type of thing. That doesn't make it real - it just keeps you happy.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    There are some things about God which we will never know this side of eternity e.g. can non-christians be saved, what percentage of us will be saved etc. God has chosen not to reveal these things to us. Some things about God will always be a mystery but we can have a very good guess at the answers based on our knowledge of God's ways.
    How do we know gods ways? by what other people/humans said?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    What you seem to be suggesting is that God isn't capable of delivering the truth to us without corruption!
    Yes I am. I think many people are corrupt and will change the message (if it existed) to suit themselves. This has happened time and time again in history.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Jesus revealed the truth to the apostles and this same truth is preserved to this day in the Catholic Church.
    How do I know jesus revealed the truth? If jesus were alive today - would you agree that he would most likely be in a psychiatry pumped with medication? I don't mean that in a disrespectful way but I do think it is possible. So does that mean there could be more prophets in mental institutes around the world?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    That's simple. God never abandoned us in the wilderness without a compass. We have...
    kelly1 wrote: »
    the bible
    written by man
    kelly1 wrote: »
    and we have the Church.
    a man made institution.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Yes the Church has often sinned but it's teachings are a true guide to God.
    If the church is a true guide to god then is god a sinner?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    The Church has the god-given authority to teach in God's name. If you don't believe this, you have to admit that God has left us to our own devices to find the truth. Even the word of God is open to different interpretations so it *alone* is not a sure way to find the truth. It can only be correctly and infallibly interpreted by those who have the authorith to do so. i.e the Magisterium (teaching authority) of the Church. God has provided all we need to find the truth. As Christ said, "I am with you always, to the end of days".
    How do I know they have authority? Just because they say so?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Only two?? What about all the prophets of the Old Testament and the twelve apostles and the Early Church Fathers etc...
    How many of them met and personally saw what jesus did? From what I read it was only mark and another person or that some were based on others. I have often heard stories from people who claimed to have witnessed something only to find they were either exaggerating or just plain lying. So why should I believe these people?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Unbelief is never good in God's eyes. Our good deeds are always pleasing to Him but are *far* more pleasing when done out of love for Him.
    Why does he want us to love him?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Do you think you have exhausted all the avenues in trying to find God? Did you give up too easily? On that note, I would highly recommend a book called "The Fulfillment of All Desire" by Ralph Martin:-
    http://www.amazon.com/Fulfillment-All-Desire-Ralph-Martin/dp/1931018367/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213101836&sr=1-1
    I can't imagine anything can give me tangible proof which is what I seek.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    I think your view assumes that we have some kind of equality or comparability to God? We don't. All the good we do comes from God whether we realize it or not. The Holy Spirit works with everyone, sinner and saint alike, constantly trying to draw them closer to God. So you see it's wrong for us to claim to be good while in fact it is God's grace working within us. That's why it's arrogant for an atheist to claim that he/she doesn't need God in order to be good.
    So if we do good it is really god that is doing good? does that mean we don't have free will?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    That certainly is a common belief. But to deny ones Creator and His wishes is pure madness.
    It may be madness IF you know who your creator is.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    You don't and that makes no sense if you think about it. Grace is freely given by God and not earned. God gives His grace when sees us open to it, i.e. willing to do His will, which is always for our ultimate good.
    So we must be willing to do his will in order to earn god's grace.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    He spoke through the prophets and Jesus especially.
    And how do we know they didnt just make it up?
    kelly1 wrote: »
    What do you expect? A booming voice from Heaven that the whole world can hear? A clearly audible voice in every mind? As I asked before, do you think God is incapable is delivering the truth to us without corruption? To suggest this would be to underestimate God's power and providence.
    I think many PEOPLE are incapable of delivering the truth to us without corruption. It happens everyday and it has happened right through history.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Yes it is actually two way. It is very rare that someone hears a voice or has a vision and to look for such is a mistake because it leaves us open to deception by the devil. God communicates with us via scripture. Scripture is living because it contains the power of God's word. It speaks to our hearts. God also communicate to us via holy inspirations. When we remain open to doing God's will and give up our own selfish will, God prompts us to do what He wants us to do via the Holy Spirit.
    So god has already answered our prayers?
    Do we have free will if god can control us with the hold spirit?


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    #89
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    Exactly. Even if we were all proved wrong, I wouldn't regret a thing. I still wouldn't feel like I should have been worshipping some being who was invisible. In fact, I might have a thing or two to say to him instead or being thankful!


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    #90
    aidan24326
    Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    kelly1 wrote: »
    "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life". "No man comes to the Father, except through me". "I am the light of the world" etc, etc.

    These quotes only suggest that Jesus was either a) loony or b) had a rather high opinion of himself.

    kelly1 wrote: »
    Yeah, just keep laughing guys. I don't mean this vindictively, but you will regret it one day. Over and out.

    But of course you do mean it vindictively i.e that us non-believers are all on a one-way ticket to hellfire after we die. Hell is surely the most disgusting idea ever conceived by god or man and even if there was no other reason to renounce the christian faith that one alone would be good enough. It takes a rather sick mind to come up with such a thing.


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    #91
    Winters
    Registered Users Posts: 14,761 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    aidan24326 wrote: »
    Hell is surely the most disgusting idea ever conceived by god or man and even if there was no other reason to renounce the christian faith that one alone would be good enough. It takes a rather sick mind to come up with such a thing.

    Particularly for someone [god] who is suppose to be very "forgiving" and "loves all of his children". The idea of "praise me or end up in eternal damnation for ever" really comes across as something very childish, particularly for a supposed being of super national and extravagant power and knowledge.


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