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Rememberance Poppy

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    #242
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,089 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Cionnfhaolaidh wrote: »
    Ireland was once a British colony but when we became a Republic our membership to the Commonwealth was automatically revoked. That suited us just fine.
    Ireland wasn't a British colony, it was part of Britain itself and joining in with the colonizing.


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    #243
    Cionnfhaolaidh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭Cionnfhaolaidh


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    According to this article, it was decided by the coalition government in 1948 to leave the British Common Wealth

    http://www.reform.org/TheReformMovement_files/article_files/articles/leavcw.htm

    Thanks for the link.

    But:
    "The Irish Free State/Éire remained a member of the British Commonwealth until the declaration of a republic in April 1949. Under Commonwealth rules declaration of a republic automatically terminates membership of the association."

    Have a day.


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    #244
    Cionnfhaolaidh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭Cionnfhaolaidh


    robinph wrote: »
    Ireland wasn't a British colony, it was part of Britain itself and joining in with the colonizing.

    PMSL, Ireland wasa British colony. How else did the Act of Union come about? :D LOL @ you.


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    #245
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,089 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Cionnfhaolaidh wrote: »
    PMSL, Ireland wasa British colony. :D How else did the Act of Union come about? :D LOL @ you.
    ...and the result of that union was....?


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    #246
    Cionnfhaolaidh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭Cionnfhaolaidh


    robinph wrote: »
    ...and the result of that union was....?

    Drum roll: The United Kingdom :rolleyes: Jesus H Christ buddy, are you actually from Ireland?

    You can't just annex a country without colonising it first. Ireland was colonised by the British and they owned + 90% of the land. The remainder was left to the Gaelic scum, all 8 million of them.

    Have a day.


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    #247
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    a A rememberence Poppy, The French, Americans, Canadians etc. lay wreaths of Poppies for rememberence.

    b A British Charity Poppy ( in reality its originaly Scottish http://www.ev3.co.uk/flow/flowplayer/history.htm) funds the Earl Haig Charities http://www.charitychoice.co.uk/charitydetails.asp?ref=594&category=EXSV( Scotland ) and The Royal British Legion http://www.charitychoice.co.uk/charitydetails.asp?ref=149437&keyword=poppy( I assume the rest of the UK )

    The following makes interesting reading as to how the Poppy and Rememberance has been politicaly stigmatized and left 35,500 Irish Dead, with a lot of people not caring about them or their sacrifice anymore.
    http://www.greatwar.ie/postwar.html

    I think you'll agree that b is the one which is used commonly and promoted by various poppy supporters here and is exclusively tied to a British(imperial & military) custom

    Strange how that(greatwar.ie) site about the Fusiliers proclaims 1916 to be treasonous, that ain't helping their appeal at all to the ordinary Irish joe and jane.

    Though the singing of God Save The Queen and the waving of Union Jacks in previous poppy ceremonies in the early 20s as described on that site just shows what the poppy was defined as and still is, the longing of belonging to a British Empire.


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    #248
    Trojan911
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    Mairt wrote: »
    They're made by ex-soldiers, made ill or infirm through their service in the forces. They make a wage out of it.

    Correct... In a retirement home up on Richmond Hill in London. A very nice place to visit as well...

    TJ911...


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    #249
    Stoner
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,952 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    gurramok wrote: »
    IStrange how that(greatwar.ie) site about the Fusiliers proclaims 1916 to be treasonous, that ain't helping their appeal at all to the ordinary Irish joe and jane.
    what the poppy was defined as and still is, the longing of belonging to a British Empire.

    I agree with everything gurramok said in this recent post. To simplify the poppy to representing "all victims" of war is not correct IMO.

    It does not represent the German soldiers or the civilians, it does not represent people like my great grandfather who was placed in a concentration camp as he joined mutiny against the British army for their treatment of his country, even though he was fighting for "the empire" (so grace would be shown to Ireland)
    Like I said before many Irish people went to war to help Ireland, not the empire, to say that the symbol of the poppy encapsulates all these deaths in total is not accurate and does not recognise the plight of many of these individuals.
    It is a political symbol, just like the easter Lilly IMO and to wear it is everyones choice etc, but just like the easter lily it says something about a person who decides to put one on, just like the lily places a person with a certain demographic IMO. I don't wear either myself.
    My reason for posting here is to point out that it does not represent all who died and thinking that it does or rubbing over the reasons why some people went to war belittles their memories. Wearing a poppy IMO is no big deal, the reasoning behind it is important.

    My final reason for never wearing a Lilly is that Dave O'Leary always seemed to have one one when he talked about his Leeds Babies.:D


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    #250
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    I wish those on the 'Anti-No' side would just think about the scene for one moment!

    The Big Guns fall silent, the smoke drifts away, the Armistice is made, the Great War is Over & Six Hundred Thousand Allied soldiers lay Dead in the Poppy fields (please think about that for one moment).

    Of those Six Hundred thousand, Thirty Five Thousand Irish men, some with Dublin accents, some with Cork accents, some with Northern accents, some Protestant, some Roman Catholic lay Dead in the mud on the Poppy fields of Flanders .............(please think about that too).

    I will wear my Poppy with pride this year as a mark of respect as I always have & always will.

    'Some' may indeed detest me for remembering those 35K Irish who fell, but I will remember them on the 11/ November, come what may.

    On the 11th Hour, of the 11th Day, of the 11 Month, we will remember them.

    Even if some dont!


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    #251
    latenia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭latenia


    ArthurF wrote: »
    I wish those on the 'Anti-No' side would just think about the scene for one moment!

    The Big Guns fall silent, the smoke drifts away, the Armistice is made, the Great War is Over & Six Hundred Thousand Allied soldiers lay Dead in the Poppy fields (please think about that for one moment).

    Of those Six Hundred thousand, Thirty Five Thousand Irish men, some with Dublin accents, some with Cork accents, some with Northern accents, some Protestant, some Roman Catholic lay Dead in the mud on the Poppy fields of Flanders .............(please think about that too).

    I will wear my Poppy with pride this year as a mark of respect as I always have & always will.

    'Some' may indeed detest me for remembering those 35K Irish who fell, but I will remember them on the 11/ November, come what may.

    On the 11th Hour, of the 11th Day, of the 11 Month, we will remember them.

    Even if some dont!

    As I was saying in my earlier posts-I'm not against it for any reasons connected with Ireland's history with Britain. It's because it is romanticizing and legitimizing the war.
    Just look at the language you use when talking about the war-it's like a cross between a Siegfried Sassoon poem and a Victor annual from the 70's.
    This is not remembrance in the way you think it is-it's nostalgia. You wear the poppy and go to these services because it makes YOU feel good.


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    #252
    hopalong85
    Registered Users Posts: 541 ✭✭✭hopalong85


    latenia wrote: »
    As I was saying in my earlier posts-I'm not against it for any reasons connected with Ireland's history with Britain. It's because it is romanticizing and legitimizing the war.
    Just look at the language you use when talking about the war-it's like a cross between a Siegfried Sassoon poem and a Victor annual from the 70's.
    This is not remembrance in the way you think it is-it's nostalgia. You wear the poppy and go to these services because it makes YOU feel good.

    Yeah, i think that sums up Arthur's position pretty accurately.


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    #253
    Terry
    Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    ArthurF wrote:
    I wish those on the 'Anti-No' side would just think about the scene for one moment!
    The "yes" side?


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    #254
    The Chessplayer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭The Chessplayer


    hopalong85 wrote: »
    Yeah, i think that sums up Arthur's position pretty accurately.

    100% agree. No matter what you post, ArthurF will just respond with a somewhat moronic "35 thousand Irishmen" mantra.

    My opinion is that the Irish poppy-brigade just love stirring it up. If they lived in Britain, they would probably be banging on about how Irish they are the whole time, and how the UK is an injust union - they just want to be different.


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    #255
    Latchy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    Ruen wrote: »
    Irelands 'National Day of Commemoration' is on July 11th so no need to worry about any other country's traditions. Our day of commemoration remembers all Irish men and women who have died at war(INCLUDING WW1) or on UN service, so if you happen to be Irish you might be more interested in that unless you have some special likeness for British ceremonies.
    On that point it should be known that The IUNVA in the uk (irish united nations veterans asociation ) the ONE (organisation of national ex-servicemen/women ) and the IDV (irish defence forces veterans ) march in the poppy day parade in Lindon and various parts of the uk alongside various regiments of the british army such as the Royal Enniskillings Fusiliers and have done so for many years.

    Wearing the poppy is an indviduals choice .


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    #256
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Its no good attacking little old me! all I am doing is trying to get it into your thick heads that I wear the Poppy for the Irish men who died in the Great War & WWII, and if emotive and descriptive language helps to get the message across to the nay-sayers ~ then so be it.

    (maybe lateina should have another look at Post #162)


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    #257
    The Chessplayer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭The Chessplayer


    ArthurF wrote: »
    Its no good attacking little old me! all I am doing is trying to get it into your thick heads that I wear the Poppy for the Irish men who died in the Great War & WWII, and if emotive and descriptive language helps to get the message across to the nay-sayers ~ then so be it.

    (maybe lateina should have another look at Post #162)

    Let us know more about your political ideology that drives you to make such outlandish statements.

    Are you a British-Irishman? Are you a Unionist?


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    #258
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    What outlandish statements do you speak of?


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    #259
    Acid_Violet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭Acid_Violet


    gurramok wrote: »
    Big different Violet, poppy is an institution of the British military establishment. Many countries watch British TV programs as an aspect of British entertainment(because some are blooming good), see the difference now?

    Pretty much what I was thinking. Big difference between watching tv made by a certain country and wearing a symbol that endorses their military!


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    #260
    jahalpin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭jahalpin


    Did the poll not orignally say "Remeberance Lilly" rather than poppy?

    Does anyone know where they are selling the poppies around Dublin as I want to get one today


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    #261
    Rovi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Rovi


    jahalpin wrote: »
    Did the poll not orignally say "Remeberance Lilly" rather than poppy?
    Indeed it did.
    It's now utterly invalid and should be deleted from the thread, in my opinion.


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    #262
    barclay2
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭barclay2


    Its worth remembering that all political parties in the republic, and the vast majority of the citizens here, and the constitution, aspire to Irish Unity. And they aspire to achieving it by consent - in other words, by making the concept of a united and independent Irish state attractive enough to citizens on both sides of the border for them to vote in favour of it.

    A sizeable minority on the island - the Unionist majority in the North - either regard themselves as British or at least value the history of British identity on the island. That identity and history includes, among a lot of other things, the Irish contribution to the British military.

    To argue that to be Irish means one cannot or should not remember that contribution with pride, and express that pride by wearing the poppy, only further alienates Unionists in the North. Such alienation makes it even less likely that any Unionists/Northern Protestants will ever see a United Ireland as an attractive concept and thereby makes the possibility of Irish Unity even more remote.

    I wont wear a poppy, but that just because i never wear any kind of symbols like that e.g. poppies, lillies, shamrock etc. But i dont see any problem with people in Ireland wearing one, and i think that chastising people who do will only entrench the divisions that exist on the island.


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    #263
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,068 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    I think the notion that you can only remember the soldiers (who were sent to their slaughter by the top brass) by wearing a red poppy is what gets on my wick. This time of year is extremely militaristic.

    We should remember the madness of war


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    #264
    gyppo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭gyppo


    ArthurF wrote: »
    Its no good attacking little old me! all I am doing is trying to get it into your thick heads that I wear the Poppy for the Irish men who died in the Great War & WWII, and if emotive and descriptive language helps to get the message across to the nay-sayers ~ then so be it.

    Heres the crunch though - when you say you wear the poppy for the Irish men who died in the world wars, the symbolism (a british one) pertains to all the allied forces who died in these wars, and other campaigns. As we all know, a very sizable proportion of these were british.

    Given the atrocities committed by british forces during the occupation of this country, are you really suprised that wearing such symbolism is going to be emotive and met with distaste??

    I have no problem with people commemerating those Irishmen who died for a greater cause - indeed I'm agreeable to it. But the poppy is as british as yorkshire pudding, Boxing day, etc.etc., and has no place in Irish tradition.
    Why not remember dead Irishmen with an Irish symbol, rather than apeing the flag waving antics of the monarchy?


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    #265
    barclay2
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭barclay2


    gyppo wrote: »
    Why not remember dead Irishmen with an Irish symbol, rather than apeing the flag waving antics of the monarchy?

    Not a bad idea, and that way more people would commemorate them i imagine


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    #266
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    gyppo wrote: »
    Heres the crunch though - when you say you wear the poppy for the Irish men who died in the world wars, the symbolism (a british one) pertains to all the allied forces who died in these wars, and other campaigns. As we all know, a very sizable proportion of these were british.

    Given the atrocities committed by british forces during the occupation of this country, are you really suprised that wearing such symbolism is going to be emotive and met with distaste??

    I have no problem with people commemerating those Irishmen who died for a greater cause - indeed I'm agreeable to it. But the poppy is as british as yorkshire pudding, Boxing day, etc.etc., and has no place in Irish tradition.
    Why not remember dead Irishmen with an Irish symbol, rather than apeing the flag waving antics of the monarchy?

    And whats wrong with remembering the Allied dead on the 11th/Nov?

    I might also add that there were more Poppies sold on the streets of Dublin in the 1920's than in the whole of Northern Ireland in that decade!

    I can see no reason whatsoever not to remember my Irish Grandad who fought & died in WWI.

    And as regards an Irish symbol for Remberance Day, its now 90 years since the Great War and still no sign of a specifically 'Irish' symbol to wear on the 11th, but why wear a different one anyway? when you consider that those 35 thousand Irish men who perished were part of the British-Allied force who thankfully stopped the Germans in Two World Wars ~ or would you rather the enemy had won?


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    #267
    gyppo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭gyppo


    ArthurF wrote: »
    And whats wrong with remembering the Allied dead on the 11th/Nov?

    Firstly, your previous post categorically stated:
    ArthurF wrote: »
    all I am doing is trying to get it into your thick heads that I wear the Poppy for the Irishmen who died in the Great War & WWII
    Thats what I answered above. I would personally have no interest in remembering the dead of other nations.
    ArthurF wrote: »
    I might also add that there were more Poppies sold on the streets of Dublin in the 1920's than in the whole of Northern Ireland in that decade!

    And have you any stats for today? I'd imagine this trend is well reversed - maybe as an Irish nation we no longer feel the need to participate in british pagentry.
    ArthurF wrote: »
    I can see no reason whatsoever not to remember my Irish Grandad who fought & died in WWI.
    I totally agree with you. However, I can see no reason to remember him (and I mean no disrespect to his memory ) with a symbol which is from a country foreign to this one.
    ArthurF wrote: »
    And as regards an Irish symbol for Remberance Day, its now 90 years since the Great War and still no sign of a specifically 'Irish' symbol to wear on the 11th, but why wear a different one anyway? when you consider that those 35 thousand Irish men who perished were part of the British-Allied force who thankfully stopped the Germans in Two World Wars ~ or would you rather the enemy had won?
    Well, if there is still no sign of a specifically 'Irish' one, whose fault is that?
    Why wear a different one? - why not then so, I suppose. If people feel the need to be sheep, then so be it.
    Also, try not to labour the point on who won the wars - I thought this arguement was the method in which Irish people were remembered - please refer to your previous posts to refresh your memory.


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    #268
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    If your mind is made-up that the Poppy is not an appropriate symbol for those Irish who died in the Poppy fields of Flanders then what can I say? nothing more really.


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    #269
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,486 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    I don't wear a poppy but I do observe a minute's silence. There isn't really so much an Irish Nationalist objection to it, so much as there is a British/Anglo-Irish desire to wear them that puts people off. I don't have any objection to a Union Jack, but I wouldn't wear one, if you know what I mean. There's also the thing that they are very uncommon in Ireland so you'll get funny looks (kinda like wearing shamrocks on 17th march in China).

    I also find them very ostentateous and seeing UK celebrities and television personalities wearing them seems really facetous and insincere - kinda like a woman reading the sports news.


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    #270
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    ArthurF wrote: »
    If your mind is made-up that the Poppy is not an appropriate symbol for those Irish who died in the Poppy fields of Flanders then what can I say? nothing more really.

    Question for ya:)

    Will you be commemorating our heroes who fought in the Irish War Of Independence for your freedom with such fervour as those men also fought for Ireland's freedom under Redmonds Home Rule promise by serving in WW1?

    Note:..my grandad participated in both wars so it would affect my family bloodline if you cherished our independence heroes also!:D


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    #271
    deman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭deman


    gurramok wrote: »

    How do you know Hitler wanted to send the Irish to the death camps, first i heard of it. In case you'd forgotten, we were neutral in WWII and that was respected by the big powers back then.

    Maybe you should dig out your history books again, that's if you ever did history in school in the first place. I'll bet Poland would have tried to be neutral if they were given the chance, nevermind Denmark or Norway. Finland were officially neutral yet the Nazis were able to take advantage of the fact that Finland were at war with Russia and stormed into Finnish lapland and when they realised they couldn't beat the Russians in the cold artic winter weather, decided to turn on the Finns instead. Respect??? Go and read a book and educate yourself before posting your BS again.


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