Rememberance Poppy

latenia

ArthurF wrote: »

This Sunday I shall be at 'St Patricks Cathedral Dublin' along wih a couple of thousand other folk, commerating the War Dead as we have done since 1918, President McAleese & Government representitives will attend as usual (some with Poppies-some without), Wreaths will be laid by the President, Union Jacks will be marched up the isle (Irish batillions only), old soldiers will be there, Representives from the Commonwealth will attend, the last post will be played & we will remember the dead.

A further Wreath laying ceremony will be held at the garden of Remembrance also on Sunday!

Needless to say, every Church of Ireland parish up & down the Country will also hold a Remembreace Service & have a minutes silence to remember those who perished in the Great War, World War II & all other campaigns where Irish soldiers fought & died .........................

A public display of mourning for people you don't know-kind of reminiscent of Diana's funeral. If you do have relatives who died why not go to their graves and do your own thing?
I get the feeling that the people who participate in these things enjoy them on some level due to the emotions stirred up by the flags, Last Post, stirring manipulative speeches etc. Does it make you feel good to be in the same building as the president? Important?
I think your use of the term 'Great War' is very revealing. Rather than the commonly accepted WWI, you chose a term which lost currency 50 years ago. Was this an attempt to show off your knowledge of history or a symbol of your underlying nostalgia for the event? I'm guessing the latter.
After all, this is what these events are really about-nostalgia. Who doesn't get the hair on their neck standing when 'The Last Post' plays?
Instead of inducing what would in my opinion be a fitting sentiment to the young men who were murdered-the desire for peace, it promotes patriotism and jingoism and muddles rational thought. From there it's just a few easy steps to going to kill for your country.

The Chessplayer

ArthurF wrote: »

I shall let you into a little secret Chessplayer "I am Church of Ireland" I will be attending the morning remembrance service in my local parish Church, & then the main event in St Patricks Cathedral at 3:15pm, there is no reason in the world for me to embroider our remembrance services in the C of I.

Why not come along and see for yourself?

"I am Church of Ireland" - that is a hilarious statement. That's like standing outside Anfield and saying "I am Liverpool". You sound more like an egomaniac than anything else.

Fratton Fred

The Chessplayer wrote: »

The Irish don't wear poppies. THANK GOD!

I'm sure I'm not alone is hating the whole poppy-wearing idiotic British tradition. It's such a pathetic symbol, and it's embarrassing to see them wear it year in year out.

so is it idiotic for British people to wear the Poppy or just the Irish or is the whole idea of wearing a Poppy and rememberence idiotic?

The Chessplayer

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so is it idiotic for British people to wear the Poppy or just the Irish or is the whole idea of wearing a Poppy and rememberence idiotic?

To be honest with you Fred, it just gets on my nerves. The whole idea of it is just silly.

Why don't you lot have a rememberence day for the Napoleonic wars? You could wear something for that too perhaps.

Dave Roe

The Chessplayer wrote: »

That's a lie. You are being disingenuous. Most Church of Ireland parishes do not and will not have rememberance services for these wars, or any other "campaigns".

This was something I did a lot of research into when I was in college, and can conclusively state that it is just not true. It is one of many bizarre myths concerning the identity of southern protestants.

"Up & down the country..." - what a load of old cobblers!

What was the nature of your research?

I've never 'researched' this, but I've attended a lot of CofI services around rememberence day and there's always been at the very least a special prayer for all war dead. Different churches (within the CofI) remember differently. Some, like St. Patricks, will have a big blow-out special service, some will fit in just a special prayer in the normal Sunday service, but I've never heard of one that didnt do anything.

(St. Patrick's by the way, isn't really representative of the Church of Ireland as a church. The decor, services, robes work by the clergy and all that is very, very high church. Most Irish Anglican churches and church services are not like it at all, and I'd say that most Irish prods find it strange if they ever go.)

As an aside, I am CofI and will wear a Poppy on Sunday. I'd expect the bulk of the congregation at my church will have one on.

What's more interesting, is that if you want to hear anti-war views expressed, just as forthrightly as they've been put forwrd here, there's no better place than a CofI sermon on rememberence day, in particular with younger, women clerics.

Again, what was the nature of your research?

Dave

The Chessplayer

Dave Roe wrote: »

What was the nature of your research?

I've never 'researched' this, but I've attended a lot of CofI services around rememberence day and there's always been at the very least a special prayer for all war dead. Different churches (within the CofI) remember differently. Some, like St. Patricks, will have a big blow-out special service, some will fit in just a special prayer in the normal Sunday service, but I've never heard of one that didnt do anything.

(St. Patrick's by the way, isn't really representative of the Church of Ireland as a church. The decor, services, robes work by the clergy and all that is very, very high church. Most Irish Anglican churches and church services are not like it at all, and I'd say that most Irish prods find it strange if they ever go.)

As an aside, I am CofI and will wear a Poppy on Sunday. I'd expect the bulk of the congregation at my church will have one on.

What's more interesting, is that if you want to hear anti-war views expressed, just as forthrightly as they've been put forwrd here, there's no better place than a CofI sermon on rememberence day, in particular with younger, women clerics.

Again, what was the nature of your research?

Dave

I made contact with Church representatives in 20 different parishes - mostly rural. The general concensus was that these poppies are not worn by parishoners...but sure I didn't need him to tell me that. I've never seen anyone wear them in Ireland. It's just not a tradition, but that's not to say that there isn't space to create a new tradition.

Fratton Fred

The Chessplayer wrote: »

To be honest with you Fred, it just gets on my nerves. The whole idea of it is just silly.

Why don't you lot have a rememberence day for the Napoleonic wars? You could wear something for that too perhaps.

then don't watch Sky, UTV or the BBC and they offending objects won't be seen. btw, Rememberence day is just that, it is not just for the two world wars, it is for all wars.

As for embarrassing, have you ever seen this country on St Patricks day?

scatriona

My (Irish & Roman Catholic) great aunts & uncles used to wear the Poppy as a mark of respect/remembrance to their brother who fought and died in the War. It's a personal decision.
Saying 'I'm Church of Ireland' is similar to saying 'I'm Catholic' so I don't see it as a hilarious statement by Arthur or implies he's an egomaniac in any way??

robinph

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Why don't you lot have a rememberence day for the Napoleonic wars? You could wear something for that too perhaps.

There is already a day for that, it's the Sunday nearest the 11th November as well or did you miss the bit about "all wars"?

The Chessplayer wrote: »

...I've never seen anyone wear them in Ireland. ...

I just passed a couple of people wearing them whilst walking down Grafton Street a few minutes ago and the Irish bloke infront of me in the shop I was just in was wearing one also.

The Chessplayer

robinph wrote: »

There is already a day for that, it's the Sunday nearest the 11th November as well or did you miss the bit about "all wars"?

I just passed a couple of people wearing them whilst walking down Grafton Street a few minutes ago and the Irish bloke infront of me in the shop I was just in was wearing one also.

Great! I have an idea - why don't we all wear one of these silly poppies - just to let everyone know that we "remember" these wars.

Only a total saddo would wear a poppy. You don't see me marching to Glasnevin cemetary every Easter to "remember" the Irish struggle. Why not - because I'm not a total pratt.

I know my history and don't need to wear a stupid poppy or a giant green hat either.

LordSutch

Chessplayer, seeing as you are so Anti-PoppY, tell me how should we remember our Irish War dead on the 11th? or should we tell those still living from WWII attending St Patricks Cathedral on Sunday to get stuffed & bugger off? should the Government representatives present not wear their
Poppies either? Why does the President attend every year?

I wouldnt be defending Remembrance Sunday so much if I didnt have a grandfather who is buried in Aberdeen (coustesy of a german torpedo), but then again there are hundreds of thousands of other Irish men & women who had Grandparents & Great Grandparents who died in the Great War and fell in the PoppY fields of Flanders ..............

I shall be wearing my PoppY in my local Parish Church on Sunday morning along with the majority of the congragation ~ Sorry if that upsets you Chessplayer.

Finally, I am not aware of any C of I parish Church thast doesnt Pay Respect on the 11th/Nov.

hopalong85

Arthur, seriously, wtf is with the capital y????:rolleyes:

LordSutch

The large Y is from a famous 'Earl Haig Fund' PoppY appeal Poster, nothing more interesting than that i'am sorry to say.

Sonnenblumen

The Chessplayer wrote: »

You don't see me marching to Glasnevin cemetary every Easter to "remember" the Irish struggle. Why not - because I'm not a total pratt.

I sincerely hope not and I'd imagine a lot of people would disagree with your personal assessment.

Checkmate.

A Dub in Glasgo

ArthurF wrote: »

The large Y is from a famous 'Earl Hague Fund' PoppY appeal Poster, nothing more interesting than that i'am sorry to say.

Would that be W Hague the Tory or the Haig who ordered hundreds of thousands of young men to their needless death? Played to a tee by Geoffrey Palmer in 'Goodbyeee' from Blackadder Goes Forth.

LordSutch

The latter Haig unfortunately, who had a long and distinguished military career (according to the military) although he seems to have had a 'Cannon Fodder Mentality' it came to his foot soldiers & sadly this scant regard was not uncommon amongst field marshals & generals in the Great War!

Yes it was Geoffrey Palmer who played the part of Field Marshal Haig in Blackadder, with Stephen Fry's part (Melchett) based on a Generic British General with a giant moustache.

It can of course be argued that some of the Top Brass were complete un-caring idiots who sent tens of thousands to their deaths in World War 1, and who am I to argue, but the fact still remains, Tens of thousands of Irish men died in the PoppY fields.

artanevilla

I won't wear a poppy due to the brutal treatment of Irish people by British soldiers in the past.

scatriona

artanevilla wrote: »

I won't wear a poppy due to the brutal treatment of Irish people by British soldiers in the past.

that's entirely your choice but at least 35,000 Irish (north & south) soldiers died in WW1 (from www.taoiseach.gov.ie) and I think they deserve to be remembered in some way....

tallus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

then don't watch Sky, UTV or the BBC and they offending objects won't be seen. btw, Rememberence day is just that, it is not just for the two world wars, it is for all wars.

As for embarrassing, have you ever seen this country on St Patricks day?

What country doesn't wear their national colour on their national day ?
You're getting a bit too personal to have any kind of rational discussion.

darkman2

I never wear a poppy but there is a dycothomy there in terms of the Irish wearing one because its essentially a British rememberance for British soldiers......so in theory by wearing one you would be remembering those who fought against the founders of this state as well as others which would be a bit weird.....


Which is probrably why Irish people dont wear poppies and probrably should not anyway as its not our rememberance.

Dave Roe

The Chessplayer wrote: »

I made contact with Church representatives in 20 different parishes - mostly rural. The general concensus was that these poppies are not worn by parishoners...but sure I didn't need him to tell me that. I've never seen anyone wear them in Ireland. It's just not a tradition, but that's not to say that there isn't space to create a new tradition.

That's not quite the same thing as ...

"That's a lie. You are being disingenuous. Most Church of Ireland parishes do not and will not have rememberance services for these wars, or any other "campaigns".

When you say Church representatives, is that clergy? vestry members? parishoners? Did you explicitly ask them 'does your church have a rememberance day service?' or some other question?
The orignal suggestion that you jumped all over with your research was that CofI churches have rememberance day services, not about wearing poppies.

Research that comes up with a general consenus seems a bit odd to me.

And just beacuse you've never seen anyone wear one doesnt mean it doesnt happen. I've seen thousands of Irish people in Ireland wearing poppies.
It is a tradition. It's an Irish tradition. It's just not your traditon.

Hagar

Dave Roe wrote: »

It is a tradition. It's an Irish tradition. It's just not your traditon.

No it isn't, it's a British tradition. Face facts.

The Chessplayer

ArthurF wrote: »

Chessplayer, seeing as you are so Anti-PoppY, tell me how should we remember our Irish War dead on the 11th? or should we tell those still living from WWII attending St Patricks Cathedral on Sunday to get stuffed & bugger off? should the Government representatives present not wear their
Poppies either? Why does the President attend every year?

I wouldnt be defending Remembrance Sunday so much if I didnt have a grandfather who is buried in Aberdeen (coustesy of a german torpedo), but then again there are hundreds of thousands of other Irish men & women who had Grandparents & Great Grandparents who died in the Great War and fell in the PoppY fields of Flanders ..............

I shall be wearing my PoppY in my local Parish Church on Sunday morning along with the majority of the congragation ~ Sorry if that upsets you Chessplayer.

Finally, I am not aware of any C of I parish Church thast doesnt Pay Respect on the 11th/Nov.

Why does the President attend every year? Probably because the President of Ireland has no function, and is a token diplomatic role. Mary McAleese is more likely to be cutting the ribbon for a new supermarket, than involving herself in policy making.

Employment was one of the main reasons the Irish fought in WW1 - also, there was the Home Rule movement - Redmondites etc.

Rememberance day is a load of old cobblers. Just an opportunity for wet-brained revisionists to harp on about the evil Germans and their dastardly torpedo attacks.

Esel

The Chessplayer wrote: »

"I am Church of Ireland" - that is a hilarious statement. That's like standing outside Anfield and saying "I am Liverpool". You sound more like an egomaniac than anything else.

You're letting something show with an idiotic comment like that, mate. I am Sparticus, btw.

ArthurF wrote: »

The large Y is from a famous 'Earl Haig Fund' PoppY appeal Poster, nothing more interesting than that i'am sorry to say.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

the Haig who ordered hundreds of thousands of young men to their needless death?

ArthurF, a bit weird, no, to remember this fool in every post then? It took you a long time to explain the 'Y' - I'm not surprised, given the explanation. Also, I think it's revealing that you take the bother to do so. A foible, maybe?

[edit] And folks, it's remembrance, not rememberance or rememberence! [/edit]

artanevilla

scatriona wrote: »

that's entirely your choice but at least 35,000 Irish (north & south) soldiers died in WW1 (from www.taoiseach.gov.ie) and I think they deserve to be remembered in some way....

Yes, my great grandfather fought in WWII, however, we should have a different way of celebrating and remembering these men. I'm sure most members of the British armed forces are decent people. My refusal to wear one is in protest against the action of the army and the government behind them in the past.

AdrianII

move on about the past history

people spend way to much time talking about the brutal past, true times were hard but to say your protesting against the uk army and government is bull.

Why not boycott everything britsh, tv papers etc.

Your talking rubbish mate

I love the way most lads that hate the britsh are the same fellas that wear Man Utd or liverpool at the weekends

Esel

AdrianII wrote:

Why not boycott everything britsh, tv papers etc.

The proper expression is "Burn everything British but the coal!"

AdrianII wrote:

Your talking rubbish mate

Which mate are you referring to? Just for clarity, you understand.

Maybe the anti-poppy brigade could appropriate a well-known Loyalist slogan: FTP. :eek:

artanevilla

AdrianII wrote: »

move on about the past history

people spend way to much time talking about the brutal past, true times were hard but to say your protesting against the uk army and government is bull.

Why not boycott everything britsh, tv papers etc.

Your talking rubbish mate

I love the way most lads that hate the britsh are the same fellas that wear Man Utd or liverpool at the weekends

Firstly I'm a Bohs fan, second I don't hate everything British, thirdly we need to remember past history in order to learn from the mistakes made. I'll stop here in order to avoid a holocaust reference.

Fratton Fred

tallus wrote: »

What country doesn't wear their national colour on their national day ?
You're getting a bit too personal to have any kind of rational discussion.

I'm not taking this personal at all, if someone doesn't want to wear a Poppy then fine, I haven't said anyone should, all I have does is said why I wear one.

I do take exception at someone calling me and millions of my fellow countrymen embarrassing saddos though.

or is it, as usual perfectly ok to slag the Brits but don't dare criticise the Irish?

The Chessplayer

darkman2 wrote: »

I never wear a poppy but there is a dycothomy there in terms of the Irish wearing one because its essentially a British rememberance for British soldiers......so in theory by wearing one you would be remembering those who fought against the founders of this state as well as others which would be a bit weird.....


Which is probrably why Irish people dont wear poppies and probrably should not anyway as its not our rememberance.

This of is the central point in my arguement. I have no problem with these ceremonies. I just can't understand why the poppy-brigade want to do everything in a peculiarly British way.

Germans don't wear poppies, and there were countless German heads blown off in Flanders. It's a British thing for British people.

I have no problem with holding ceremonies to mark this day. It should be done in a manner respectful to the sovereignty of Ireland. Poppy heads should be comfortable with their Irishness. They should be mature enough and confident enough to realise that this isn't Britain. It's the year 2007!!!