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Now it's official: "Ireland needs a new right wing party".

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Left to their own devices private industry will do whatever pays the most. Up until 3 years ago the only things been constructed were offices for that very reason. The state has to have oversight and control of national objectives.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Privatisation of just about every national asset. A refusal to seriously address the need for public health services.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    That's a good definition, thanks. Now I get it.

    So if someone is heavily invested in, say, transgender rights and highly vocal in, say, calling for people like JK Rowling to be cancelled, then they would be an exemplar of 'wokeism'?

    (tbh, people like that seem irrelevant when it comes to serious issues and should just be ignored - as should the people calling them 'wokeist' in a derogatory way)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,441 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    We just need a common sense party.

    Sensible immigration policy, get rid of the stupid hate speech bill, build more houses ( or allow more to be built as it seems impossible to build houses in Ireland due to endless objections and planning delays caused by cranks), a new prison, harsher sentences for violent crime, get rid of waste in health service and other government departments.

    Problem is I think the poor calbire of our elected representatives means we'll never get any of these fairly sensible policies implemented in the near future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Privatisation is hardly a new thing. You seem to be complaining about something that happened 3 or 4 decades ago in most cases. Maybe update your list of grievances. 😏

    On health, despite having the youngest population in Western Europe, we have the fourth highest spend per head. So I don't see health as an economic issue - I see it as a health policy issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 944 ✭✭✭Everlong1


    No, it doesn't. It means being obsessed with fringe nonsense like why don't we have more trans toilets in schools and other public buildings. Which then leads to a climate where you can't talk sense about crime, immigration or welfare without the risk of being labelled as a racist/neo-con/fascist/whatever you're having yourself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Privatisation is the loadstone of right wing politics and it's still going on.

    All health spending ultimately gets funnelled through private companies, which is why our spending is so high and our results so poor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    It does have oversight and control - we have regulators, we set tax rates, we have laws, we have environmental standards etc etc. The same model that exists in every liberal democracy on earth.

    What do you want, everything to be nationalised like North Korea? That works well, not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I certainly don't want wholesale nationalization - but empirically some service are better and cheaper when offered by the state.

    Your perfectly illustrating my point - right wing ecomic dogma is now considered the norm. They won and we are suffering in many areas as a consequence.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,643 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    "right-wing policies are great ………. well the shortsighted ones that directly benefit me now are anyway …….. I'll come back and complain when the ones that don't, start to affect me"



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    I'm sorry, you're just citing incorrect information here. You might want to look at this, which details where health spending actually goes in reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,172 ✭✭✭✭L1011




  • Administrators Posts: 54,256 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Yes, that's it exactly.

    "Cancel culture" is another side of it, another thing that's been inherited from American politics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Shouldn't you be getting ready for your trial next week? I'll be honest, I don't have a great deal of faith in your latest legal team. 😀



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,643 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    It's no issue when you have a stable genius brain as big as mine.

    Person, woman, man, camera, TV. Let's see you try it



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    You need to deal with the world as it is, not as you would like it to be.

    In the great clash of ideologies in the last century, capitalism and democracy won. Communism and autocracy lost.

    This thread is about how we in Ireland now make political choices about that world…but we can't wind the clock back.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭gym_imposter


    It's the states insistence on over the top building standards which has led to soaring build costs , no reason why for example social housing needs to be the same spec as private across the board



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Social media has a lot to answer for, doesn't it? No Twitter, No Trump (and probably no Brexit either).

    Sloganeering has replaced actual debate if we think calling someone 'wokeist' wins us points, or more likely 'likes'.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Handy thing about PR as a voting method, it tends to be the fairest way to ensure that the percentage of the vote reflects the percentage of the Dáil's membership; it's not perfect or 1:1 but it has meant that smaller parties tend to represented where other systems like FPTP would never see those voters' choices reflected in the makeup of our government. 10% of the vote should mean about 10% of TDs etc. etc.

    Point being, as it always remains, if the popular mood wanted some woolly defined "right wing" party, one would exist because or system is such that it allows those views to not only exist - but get into our Lower House. All attempts at more hardened right-leaning parties have failed; what does that mean?

    An opinion piece is no more representative of the popular mood than the suggestion a few years back the National Party had "entered the mainstream" - as a thread around these parts once claimed.

    And we have a right wing government; obviously just not "right wing enough" and … well. That's life. I'd like a more left-wing government but I ain't gonna cry conspiracy about it, invent the Silent Majority or import American Culture War anxiety either..



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    I like to think that the absence of extremes in Irish politics says something profoundly positive about our society and culture. Long may it stay that way.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,409 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Intersectionality comes into play here.

    For those that don't know, it's the fact that there can be multiple factors that compete to lift up or put down people.

    Stuff like sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia etc are all important. They affect peoples lives. They are bad. But that doesn't mean that poverty isn't bad. That doesn't mean that the economy doesn't matter. In a lot of ways, wealth is the single biggest contributing factor to someones well being.

    And where you see the interaction between them, you can see it can compound issues. For example, someone of a different race may experience more or less impact from racism depending on how little/much money they have.

    The thing is it all matters. And just because we call out stuff that affects some minorities, doesn't mean that we shouldn't also focus on issues that affect far more. And just because we call out the stuff that affects a lot of people, doesn't mean that we should forget about the stuff that affects minorities.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    Surely the issue is this across the world ( inc Ireland? ) .. we have POLARISATION created by Politics being Far Left and Far right ( significantly assisted by that part of the Internet called Social Media ). No one really in the centre / Centre left or Right anymore?

    Then regardless of whether far left or far right or wherever you are on the political spectrum, we no longer engage with the opposite, have a good argument and then go down to the pub after for a few pints together. In other words, agree to disagree and respect each others POV.

    Oh and everything now is about MY Truth, not THE Truth



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    So…the 'greatest good, for the greatest number'?

    I'd like to think that our society has become far more equal over the last few decades. And accepting of diversity.

    Are we perfect? Of course not, the perfect society or country doesn't exist and never will.

    But, in the context of this thread, if I had to weight what was more important between say, transgender rights and continuing US FDI into Ireland, I'm always going to say the latter - because that is the tide that lifts all our boats. And I'll vote for a party that prioritises that too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Well actually, our current government (and indeed the last one too) is a perfect example of centralism. So we may be silly enough to squabble in the pub for what you describe above but it sure as hell isn't what we actually vote for.



  • Administrators Posts: 54,256 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Most people are in the centre. In Ireland in particular, it is no coincidence that we keep getting coalition governments that drift to the centre. The "silent majority" is the centre, despite what those on the right would claim.

    The thing is that most people who care enough about politics to discuss it publicly or in the pub tend to have stronger views one way or the other, rather than bland middle-of-the-road opinions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    Mmm .. I would see the current gov made up of parties who think they are centre but in actual fact are pretty farther to the left policy wise? And spending alot of time dealing with Social issues vs bread and butter issues like housing, health etc etc. My view, maybe Im wrong or seeing it wrong?

    For the record my politics would be centre .. part of the silent majority as @awec mentioned



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,220 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    definitely demand there, has been for some time to, many very ignorant folks around here, who have a serious inability to see bigger pictures, and even attempt to try understand complex social problems, so yes, theres definitely enough demand there for that….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,409 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    It shouldn't be an either/or decision.

    We're quite capable of thinking of for example gay rights and inviting foreign investment at the same time. It's the reason we have different government departments. The idea that minority rights should come second to the economy is a bit silly.

    And if there was a clash, say Saudi will only invest billions if we make homosexuality illegal, then I'd say that the FDI comes second. We can always look for other investors.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Of the current government, I think the only party that has been successful at getting its policy objectives somewhat realised is the Greens. And they should be congratulated for that (isn't that after all why we vote for a particular party). I don't really know what FF and FG are trying to achieve in policy terms any more beyond some kind of 'steady as she goes' approach.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Isn't gay rights a 'solved problem'? (I'm not in way trying to trivialise anything)

    I take your point and agree. Our values should be our values. I'm more talking about our priorities.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 944 ✭✭✭Everlong1


    I'd agree. Obsessing over hate speech and pointless referendums while tourists are being mutilated by thugs with 100+ convictions in Temple Bar. Still inviting the world's destitute to come and live here while public spaces are becoming tent cities.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 885 ✭✭✭scottser


    'The Wokerati'.

    Anybody who uses that term should be shot with balls of their own shite, as should anybody who thinks we need more of anything right wing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,220 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78




  • Administrators Posts: 54,256 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Socially gay rights is probably not a solved problem, I am sure plenty of gay people still suffer discrimination or abuse.

    But politically it is done. There's no more meat on that bone. In general, in terms of all the identity / rights related issues the electorate has had it's fill, I don't think any parties will have these issues too high on the agenda in the upcoming election. The recent referendum case in point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Yes, i think we agree here.

    There will always be idiots who are phobic and\or abusive but I see that as more of a social problem (and to some extent an educational one) but not one to expend vast amounts of political capital on.

    Gay rights exist, they are enshrined in the books of law. This is a good thing. If anyone breaks those laws, throw the book at them by all means.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,409 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Yes and no. There's still some hate crime. We should still be campaigning against it. And educating against it. Homophobia will only disappear over time as more people become accepting of LGBT+ people.

    The problem is that if you add on some stuff about inclusion to a school curriculum, then there's massive pushback.

    And yes, we should have priorities. I'd say housing is the biggest single issue at the moment. It affects everyone who isn't loaded. After that would be the health service. I'm sure some people would say they should be swapped, and I won't argue with them. Either way, they'd still be the two more important issues. However, even if we assume we know what the solutions to both are, it will still take billions to solve both.

    Now do I believe we should be trying to fix the housing crises and combat homophobia? yes. Do I think we should invest the same amount of money in both? No. :)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,099 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Absolutely. For context, I went on a LGBT mate's stag in Ireland recently. We bumped into someone they knew but hadn't seen in some time and they got very, very anxious about telling them about their being LGBT.

    It's not done. Not remotely. I need only look at this place to see how far we still have to go.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,220 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    critical issues such as housing and health care needed to be tackled equally together, as both issues are causing significant social problems, truly focusing on one over the other for sometime will simply allow the other to keep spiraling out of control, resulting in even far more complex issues in the future, to the point, it maybe impossible to resolve



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭gym_imposter


    Bread and butter issues will always trump luxury beliefs for the vast majority of voters

    The preoccupation by this government with luxury beliefs at the expense of core issues is at the heart of public disillusionment with politicians



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭gym_imposter


    Why not just say a gay wedding?, LGBTQ is an ideological term which encompasses a particular political worldview



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    What you are suggesting here is Law & Order and Emigration?

    Just two bread and butter issues perhaps, is it seen as the case amongst the silent majority?

    I would add DEFENCE of the nation ( which BTW should not be lumped in with Neutrality, A neutral nation also has a duty to defend itself ). And yes housing .. which I dont think is an easy economist trope of supply & demand .. its the crazy unaffordable prices of property that is the issue, not created by lack of supply in my view because regardless of supply the prices just keep going north.

    What ever of law & order which in some way is being hindered by lack of Garda numbers I imagine AND Emigration which maybe hindered some what by EU policy & lack of past govs wanting to deal with it going way back .. both need to be addressed in a fair manner. How do you get more Garda recruited? Same Q how do we get more Defence Forces members recruited? Pretty much ignored by current & past govs?

    Emigration is going to be a huge thing going forward and not for us alone. Climate change, whether you think its man made or a natural cycle, is going to play a huge part in migrant flows from the Equatorial regions and parts of Southern Europe itself up to Northern Europe inc Ireland. Purely because as we approach constant 40/45 degree+ in Equatorial regions, hitting 50c .. human bodies just cannot live in these temps sustained.

    Also add WAR, maybe caused by climate change OR as we see now Russia war in Ukraine. Migration west from Ukraine ( 40m ) and other East Europe countries possibly. We cannot stick our heads in the sand with regards all this and just say Ireland is Full. What should happen and most likely will happen is all this will have to be dealt with via a universal EU comprehensive emigration policy for all members to share this "burden".

    All the above is not really being dealt with by the current government or past govs BUT is coming down the line. Lack of proper Gov engagement in this is creating a vacuum that is and will be filled by others with far harder views.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 944 ✭✭✭Everlong1


    Oh for God's sake. You're not seriously going to start banging the drum about the poor misunderstood thugs and their deprived backgrounds are you? We've had thirty odd years of the "hug a thug" approach to crime and look where it's got us. I grew up in a house that was one step above a tenement. A lot of my friends grew up in state built public housing that looked like luxury apartments to me. We have the most generous welfare system in the world in this country so spare me the poor deprived kids nonsense. In fact it's our cradle to grave welfare system that has removed the incentive to work and meant that we now have whole generations of welfare dependent familes who expect DE GUVVMENT to provide for their every need. The upshot of this is generations of feral kids who have no respect for anything and see thuggery as a viable career option.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    but that sounds like a social problem rather than a political one (do we really expect the Government to somehow manage these social interactions?)?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,220 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    …and again, more thick as sh1t bullsh1t, why would anyone bother engaging in this type of fcuking ignorance!

    Mod

    Warned for this post

    Post edited by Sephiroth_dude on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 944 ✭✭✭Everlong1


    'The Wokerati'.

    Anybody who uses that term should be shot with balls of their own shite, as should anybody who thinks we need more of anything right wing.

    Thank you for your considered and incisive post, which I'm sure will prove to be a landmark contribution to this debate.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,099 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Where did I suggest that the government manage social interactions? Can you provide a quote please?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Thats a strategy decision based on legal obligations to meet emissions targets. Its exactly what the government should be doing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,180 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    This is true, but of course there does need to be a party for people to vote for, even with PR.

    The interesting development in irish politics is the rise of the independent.

    Indie candidates are now the 2nd or 3rd largest group in terms of voter support (based on polls) and their support is increasing, where the big 3 parties are either stable at best or even losing support.

    If that trend continues and we have an election in March 25, it is quite possible that the largest party in the country will be independents.

    How many of those indie candidates are "right wing", i dont know. But i do suspect most of them represent right wing values.

    What a mess we will be in if a band of independents outflanks every other political party in the country. But we are not far away from that circumstance, if polls are to be believed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Attempting to drag the country

    Attempting to drag the country even more to the right economically will not solve any of the countries problems. The one size fits all neo-liberal solution to everything just isn't a solution. You think it won but it caused the fucked up mess we have now in all parts of the world where it is slavishly adhered to - especially the UK and USA.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,685 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    We have a government made up primarily of two traditionally centre right parties who in recent years have moved more and more to the left in every way possible.

    The opposition are the same as well, so even if you got a Sinn Fein led government the only difference would be that they would implement their wing nut policies and bankrupt the country, but yeah we need more left wing stuff in Ireland, God knows we're not drowning in it already.

    Glazers Out!



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