The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

It does have a bearing- Dublin's unfair advantages harm every single county and every single part of the competition. People rightfully think the status quo is unfair and it's harming interest and participation, as well as the previously discussed damage to the prestige, integrity and fairness of the All-Ireland. This effect is most pronounced in Leinster of course, but it impacts every county in every province. So while the impact on Leitrim would be marginal to begin with, it would indeed help them and it would become more pronounced as the years progress.

The thing is it wouldn't even matter if it helps Leitrim- if something was simply a net positive, i.e., helped more people/counties than it harmed, then that would be enough to proceed with the reform. But this isn't even the case for splitting Dublin as it helps all counties- it's one of the few reforms you can truthfully say this about. You also clearly don't care about Leitrim but instead just want some justification for why Dublin should not be split; unfortunately the evidence is so overwhelming that they are unfairly advantaged that you will be waiting for that kind of evidence forever.

You're not engaging with my response, you're just asserting the same debunked points over and over. See my post #8836 from yesterday- it discusses in detail how splitting Dublin helps Leitrim, and indeed helps everyone including Dublin. Essentially a split helps all parts of the All-Ireland competition, including provincials, and all counties who compete in the competition. So it's beneficial to Connaught and Leitrim.

My entire argument for splitting Dublin is to eliminate the unfairness in Gaelic games today and enhance the prestige, integrity and fairness of the competition and reduce the harm from the terribly unfair status quo, where Dublin alone are unfairly advantaged. This helps all counties.

By contrast however, if someone was to propose a reform to say, ensure kickouts go past the 45 metre line, this would help some counties and harm others. It would help counties with excellent high fielders for instance but harm counties who have perfect short kickouts. In this case, where the reform doesn't help all counties, we could measure its overall impact on the game, while admitting that some counties would benefit and some would be harmed. If it's net positive, then the GAA should go for it, even if some counties lost out. But this isn't a consideration when it comes to splitting Dublin as it's been repeatedly proven that it helps all counties. So I fully stand by what I said- splitting Dublin helps all counties but other reforms, which have a more nuanced cost:benefit analysis, can be assessed differently. For instance, I'm also in favour of pooling sponsorship and funding for all counties- this would massively benefit the likes of Leitrim and Carlow, to the detriment of the better-funded counties. But as I want to help the GAA as a whole, I would be delighted for the GAA to proceed with it. But the beauty about splitting Dublin is it is one of the few, arguably the only, reform that will truly help every single county.

As I've said before though, you don't actually want to help Leitrim, you just want Dublin not to be split and are trying and failing to come up with reasons why this would be justified. And are trying to divert the thread away from the key issue, which is Dublin's dominance based off of an unfair platform of population, funding and home pitch advantage, among other things. Luckily I am here to bring it back to the real issues!

I have the poster @gaffer91 on ignore now as it is clear there is no sincerity what so ever in that particular poster. I would also question whether the poster has any real interest in the GAA at all. As the posters sole focus seems to be Dublin and Dublin off the field issues. The fact profiles can no longer be hidden does have it's advantages.

The poster does not even want Dublin to get a new stadium if spilt. There is no talk of the logistics of a Dublin spilt who will fund it? The GAA? The poster not only wants Dublin spilt but spilt into divisions. What would this mean for Dublin hurling? Real hurling people nationally have for years being hoping for a consistent strong Dublin hurling team. How would a Dublin GAA split affect Dublin hurling administratively? Currently Dublin GAA run both football and hurling. However with any split it will mean a dilution of Human Resources. That is just a fact.

The poster falls to see how the amount of funding given to Dublin was and is necessary due to economies of scale and issues unique to Dublin.

There is no talk of how a Dublin spilt would affect the GAA. What other county would bring in as much revenue for the GAA? Which directly and indirectly goes back into other counties. What other county would fulfil that void for the GAA?

That particular poster refuses to acknowledge (even once) the amount of development done by Dublin GAA for the GAA as a whole. The poster refuses to acknowledge how Dublin brings more funding and revenue back to the GAA than any other county. This is despite Dublin funding being cut by 450,000. Many other counties run deficits and are supplement by the GAA and indirectly by Dublin GAA. GAA HQ's biggest earner (both directly and indirectly). It also most populous area of the country. Crucial to the survival and betterment of Gaelic Football.

The truth is Dublin are a net contributor to the GAA directly and indirectly.. Many other counties are drains on GAA finances. They are net recipients rather than net contributors.

It is not lost on me that JP McManus giving every county in Ireland 1m for their clubs has meant that many get much more per capita than others due to the number of clubs and population etc. It will be very revealing in subsequent years to see which counties used the funding successfully for their clubs/infrastructure. Or which counties clubs wasted the finances received as there was not those capable enough within the clubs to benefit from it.

It will certainly weed out the well run clubs in counties, v the ones that are run on a wing and prayer.

As a whole as the DCC is very well run as other posters have pointed out. However, instead of saying "well run" they use the term "professional" which itself is untrue as we all know the players are amateurs. We had another poster pointing out the list of professions of the Dublin players from 2017 included students. And students are "professional" apparently! Playing fast and loose with the definition of the word. Completely ignoring the fact that counties all over Ireland have had and do have students playing for them at one time or another.

That is the level of debate on this thread. If you go back much earlier on this thread you will see how poor the knowledge posters had of Gaelic Football and Gaelic Games. Using Declan Darcy as a point to try and disparge Dublin football with. Calling him a Leitrim man. But not knowing anything of the GAA parentage rule.

The whole goal of many on this thread is to paint Dublin football as some form of bogeyman. To disparage achievements to fail to acknowledge the importance of Dublin GAA (in particular football and to a lesser extent hurling).

The whole objective of many on this thread is to call for the destruction of Dublin Football. With no talk of the consequences, no talk of a plan, or no talk as to how the GAA could replace such a void both practically and structurally. What would sponsors and marketeers make of a spilt. Would it discourage or encourage a sponsor to be drawn to a smaller unknown brand?

It is very noticeable that when possible amalgamations of other weaker counties are mentioned posters go quiet. Something which can be done far more practically than “spilts”, as stadiums or land could be sold off where required. Or stadiums could be used in rotation.

The new geographical areas could be a larger county at national level. With each county (as is) within that "constituent county" maintaining some autonomy. For trials of players and so on.

Imagine the excitement for a new Leinster North East team consisting of Meath, Kildare, Louth and Armagh would create for example. The trials from each county for the new LNE team could be televised as a series on TG4 each week bringing in even more revenue. Ultimately improving the infrastruture and standard within those counties. Louth are struggling to fund a new ground, while Kildare, Meath and Armagh are among the biggest underachievers in Gaelic Football with no real success for decades at senior level. Eventually a competitive team that could challenge teams such as Kerry, Dublin and Tyrone could be created. It could be easily done just for a national level amalgamation, keeping the counties as is for the provincials if they wish. It would strengthen the GAA nationally, not weaken it.

The truth is Kildare, Meath and Armagh do not look capable of having the rise that Derry has had in recent years going from Div 4 to winning Div 1, challenging for Sam, AND winning the all-ireland club championship.

The truth is the administrators, managers etc in Kildare, Meath and Armagh are just not as capable as Derry. Nor does it look like they will be in the foreseeable future. That is not a Dublin issue that is their own county's ineptitude over many decades. But yet it is much simpler narrative for some to create the Dublin bogeyman.

No need to go on ignore, I'm always happy to continue this discussion, it is an important topic for the GAA. As I said before, I do tend to focus on this issue but only because it is so important to the GAA.

I've already answered your questions about the lack of a need for a new stadium, how the overfunding for Dublin was disproportionate by any metric. Not splitting Dublin will cause a reduction in revenue in the longer term, while splitting them will increase it- not only from the additional games, but also the enhanced interest as fairness increases (not to mention intra-Dublin rivalries will will probably become well contested and hotly anticipated events). Dublin's funding should absolutely have been cut given the scale of overfunding for the last 20 years but it won't nowhere near far enough- sponsorship should all be pooled and distributed and it will now require decades of underfunding of Dublin to level up the long term average across counties. I've also dealt with amalgamations- voluntary ones can be offered. But Dublin should be split regardless.

You still haven't addressed the question I previously raised so please do so in your (no doubt very lengthy) next post: Why don't you want to grapple with the three main advantages I identified namely massive population advantage, enormous funding that is disproportionate no matter how it is measured vs everyone else and playing all consequential games at home?

I can't answer the specifics to what would have happened to Leitrim if Dublin had been split in 2003 (around when the GAA proposed it). Anymore than we can't say in a specific way what would have happened to Dublin if Cluxton hadn't played with them from 2005-2023; we know he would have been a loss and that they'd have lost games they may otherwise have won, but we don't know which games, in what way, by how much etc.

You can, you're just dodging the question because it proves you're talking out of your hole.

Cluxton being missing from the team would have had a direct impact on many games because he would have played in them, if fit.

Dublin being dissolved in 2003 would have had ZERO impact on Leitrim's games, because none of them were against Dublin.

Do you accept this? If not, why not?

No I'm recognising the limits of my knowledge, as everyone should. I can't answer the specifics anymore than I could have for Cluxton not being present for Dublin.

Cluxton not being present = Dublin being less competitive, but I can't say exactly which games.

Dublin being split = Leitrim being more competitive, but I can't say which games.

So, I don't accept it. Because splitting Dublin helps all counties, it would also help Leitrim, even if it is only in a marginal way to begin with for the reasons I've already given, multiple times. Even though Dublin obviously don't compete in Connaught, the benefits would have been felt there as the current unfairness impacts every part of the the inter-county game. And we don't even have to consider how splitting Dublin would help Leitrim in qualifiers, All-Ireland series etc as even you, in your hopelessly partisan view, can clearly see the benefits from splitting Dublin to Leitrim (and all other counties) there.

As I've said before, the benefits from the improved prestige, integrity and fairness that would arise after Dublin have been split would be marginal to begin with but would become more pronounced as the years progress. Whereas splitting Dublin would result in less interest, less participation, less competitiveness, thereby harming all counties. Look at what has happened to the once-competitive Leinster Championship if you want to see the future. It's obvious there that not splitting Dublin, and allowing them to continue their dominance off their platform of unfair advantages, has caused immense harm and has made even the smaller counties like Longford, Louth etc. all less competitive. A split now would only have marginal benefits for them to begin with, but would become more apparent as the years progress- just like for Leitrim.

The benefits would be felt in different ways by different teams. So for most counties, as I've said, the enhanced prestige, integrity and fairness would result in more interest, participation and competitiveness. In Dublin's case, as the old unified county team would no longer exist, the enhanced prestige, integrity and fairness would be felt in players and supporters knowing they are now competing in a fair competition, being able to take legitimate pride in their successes (unlike currently), knowing they are not contributing to the decline of Gaelic games and many other things. Despite all their victories, there is one thing Dublin players have not felt recently- what winning an All-Ireland fairly feels like. This will no longer be the case after a split and would be the source of significant satisfaction for players, the likes of which they have never felt with Dublin, if a Dublin divisional side wins.

I answered your questions about which games Leitrim would hypothetically have won, why, how splitting Dublin helps the Connaught championship, etc. in my last post, so please read that for my response. You also blithely ignore the more obvious benefits from Leitrim playing a Dublin divisional side in the qualifiers. We can say one thing for absolute sure too- Leitrim don't benefit from Dublin not being split and continuing to play as a single entity. Not one little bit. So as a man who seemingly has a lot of concern for Leitrim, you should definitely be pushing for a split with me!

Now I've dealt with your questions comprehensively again, please outline how you propose dealing with Dublin's unfair population, funding and home pitch advantages.

I answered your questions about which games Leitrim would hypothetically have won, why, how splitting Dublin helps the Connaught championship, etc. in my last post, so please read that for my response.

I read it and, surprise surprise, you didn't…….this is you being intellectually dishonest, again. More fraud. You're claiming you answered a question comprehensively, when in reality, you gave a nonsense answer. You just said they would have won more, you didn't address which games, or why they would have performed better…….having a split Dublin in Leinster does fcuk all for the level of competition in Connaught.

You haven't responded to the point about how a team who didn't play Dublin would have fared better in a competition without Dublin. It's just nonsense. In soccer, would Ireland have gone further in Euro 2012 if France had been disqualified? No, because they weren't in our group and we didn't get out of the group so a good/bad/non-existent France HAD NO BEARING WHATSOEVER ON OUR TOURNAMENT. Same with Dublin and Leitrim for the past two decades.

So in a game against Team A after a Dublin split, Leitrim will be more competitive now because of increased interest and participation. 

This is pure subjective speculation. You're literally making it up in your own head and presenting it as fact. You don't even know if there'd be more interest or participation. You're assuming there would have been and you're also assuming this would have made Leitrim better to the point that they would have won a game. This is a lot of assumptions.

You've also failed to address my point about how Leitrim's opponents would have been more competitive also, by your own reasoning. Therefore, they would not be more likely to win those matches, as their opponents would also be more competitive, again using your own logic. You're tying yourself up in knots trying to justify a contradictory position. The truth of the matter is that splitting Dublin would have done SFA for Leitrim during this period. Which goes against your entire reason for the split in the first place.

If Dublin are split, and there is now 4 Dublin divisional sides, as Leitrim would have a better chance individually against any of those teams than they would against the current Dublin county side, they will be more competitive.

More opinion being presented as fact. If Dublin were split, they'd have a better chance against any of the split sides than they would vs a full-strength side. This is true. But, that doesn't make them more competitive automatically. They had zero chance of meeting Dublin because they can't get out of Connaught. They would have still lost those games in Connaught, so they would have had zero chance of meeting one of the split sides. So their odds are still the same….i.e. zero.

They would also now have a 4 x higher chance of meeting one of the Dublin teams than they would of meeting, say, Louth or Offaly, who are better than Leitrim but worse than the Dublin sides. So a higher chance of meeting a team who could knock them out earlier, therefore less competitive.

Now I've dealt with your questions comprehensively again, please outline how you propose dealing with Dublin's unfair population, funding and home pitch advantages.

You haven't dealt with anything comprehensively, so I'll answer your questions in the same way you're answering mine: Having a full strength Dublin side improves the prestige, integrity and fairness of the competition and therefore increases the competitiveness of all teams in the All-Ireland. How's that for an answer? Bullshit, isn't it?

For the record, you've not mentioned or apologised for the fact that you were putting words in my mouth. You've ignored multiple points raised in my previous posts. You're regurgitating the same points again and again and calling them comprehensive answers, while simultaneously refusing to elaborate on those answers. This is the opposite of "comprehensive" and is exactly what I said you were doing in my post on Wednesday at 6.16pm.

And no mention of how having more teams who are better then them in the draw is actually worse for Leitrim. Again, you're ignoring the parts of the debate which are harmful to your argument and hoping they'll go away. This is you being a fraud again.

And no mention of how amalgamating smaller counties wouldn't achieve the same end-goal, as raised by gormdubhgorm.

Behaviour of a fraudster.

@Yeah Right Just to give you a shorter answer for how benefits can differ between counties after a Dublin split, even though all counties ultimately benefit, as I think this is being lost in all the comprehensive detail I am providing in my answers to you. (These are just a small number of examples, this is a far from exhaustive list)

Dublin are split:

Benefits to Leitrim: Increased participation and interest as prestige, integrity and fairness of competition has improved. Improved competitivenes, likely to win more matches in coming years
Benefits to Kildare: Get to compete in a fairer Leinster competition. New, exciting but now fair rivalry develops between Kildare and West Dublin divisional side
Benefits to Dublin divisional sides: Now winning All-Irelands fairly, if they do win. Players finally able to take legitimate pride in their successes, unlike at present

General benefits: More faith in the integrity of competition. More prestigious tournament as a result.

etc, etc.

So we see different benefits here, but the point is all counties are clearly helped.

@Yeah Right here is where you dismissed the stadium comparison as not being applicable as it wasn't gaelic games. So looks like I was right again unfortunately. I'll accept your apology in advance! But it's fine, we all make mistakes, misremember things, including me. The important thing is that we try to do better in future.

@Yeah Right Also, how do you propose dealing with the unique combination, nature, scale and duration of advantages that Dublin have over every other county in population, funding and home pitch advantages? I think in our discussion you may have missed that question (hopefully by accident)!

So, you initially said that I went crazy, now you're saying I dismissed it? Which is it?

I never went crazy, that's you putting words in my mouth.

Again.

You already accept the point about Cluxton.

No. I didn't. More words in my mouth.

we just know they would have lost some

No, we don't. They would have been weaker, but there is no guarantee they would have lost games that they actually won.

The logic is the exact same for Leitrim. I've already dealt with how the benefits may differ by county- please reread my last couple of posts for some insight there.

The logic is completely different, you're only claiming it's the same.

If Dublin had no Cluxton in the team, they DEFINITELY would have been a weaker team because he's the best keeper of his generation, maybe ever.

If Dublin had been dissolved in 2003, there is no way you (or anyone) can honestly say that Leitrim would DEFINITELY have made it out of Connaught, because they weren't playing Dublin at any stage in those games. Their opponents would have been the same and the results would have been the same because Dublin being in Leinster doesn't affect what happens in Connaught. It simply doesn't, it's a completely different competition with different teams.

I'm not sure which games we'd have done worse in- just that it would have happen.

I asked which games we'd have played better in, not worse. How do you know it would have happened? What happened in those matches that was affected by France? The correct answer is nothing.

Like with the Cluxton analogy which you already accepted as being totally correct.

Nope, I did not. That's three times in the space of two posts you've put words in my mouth after claiming you didn't do it and had nothing to apologise for.

The damage to prestige, integrity and fairness from a uniquely advantaged French team would have damaged our performance levels,

Absolute conjecture. Load of bollocks, really,.

So the benefits to Ireland, would likely have been greater than in Italy's case here for instance.

Why? How? You keep pulling this crap out of your hole with absolutely nothing to back it up. You're literally inventing stuff to back up your argument, because you have nothing else. We had played 2 matches and already been knocked out of the tournament by Spain and Croatia before France played their second game. We were already out. France had no impact on our tournament. Literally zero.

In the scenario you just gave- for one thing, Leitrim would have been far, far more likely to have made it to that stage of the tournament. 

Another one pulled from your hole. How would they have been? What results would have gone their way that didn't? If you can't point to any then you can't say they'd have qualified.

It would be equally likely they'd get drawn vs a Dublin divisional side, which they'd have a better chance of beating. 

That's terrible maths. They would have had three times the chances of drawing a Dublin side than any other county. And are you honestly trying to claim that they'd fare better against Dublin's divisional sides than they would versus Clare or Laois? I'll have what you're smoking, please.

You said you accepted that Leitrim would have a better chance vs a Dublin divisional side vs the currently unified Dublin team (plus it is now a fair contest).

Correct, for once. Now, what did I say immediately after that? I said they'd be worse off against that divisional side than they would against the other mid-tier counties that they could possibly play and would, overall, be worse off. So, no, I didn't accpt that point, which makes it 4 times in the one post you've misrepresented what I said. I'll thank you to give that over, please.

That is not going crazy. You're an expert at misrepresentation.

I said comparing the groundsharing that goes on in Soccer is not a valid comparison with what you were proposing the Dublin teams would do at the time. I never said comparisons with soccer were irrelevant. That's your lack of reading comprehension and propensity for misrepresentation rearing it's ugly head again.

The issue you initially mentioned was if it would help them in Connaught (not that they'd have made it out, where the gains are even more obvious). And yes, we can say that due to Leitrim's improved interest and participation, their performances would have been enhanced in the event of a Dublin split. This is because the Provincials feed into, and are part of, the All-Ireland. So splitting Dublin helps all aspects of the competition.

Re: France, as above 2nd paragraph. But really we'd have to imagine a scenario where France are unfairly advantaged like Dublin are for it to be a proper analogy. If they were unfairly advantaged like Dublin, then yes a split would have aided our performances. Just like with Leitrim in Connaught. And again, I'll remind you of your own words "Soccer, eh? Cool. Now do inter-county GAA teams… See what I mean about cherry-picking?"

Re: Dublin divisional sides, same answer as before: As Leitrim have a better chance of beating any of them individually, and it's a Cup competition, and now it's a fair tournament and all the benefits to Leitrim that come with that apply here too, absolutely their overall chances would be helped vs the status quo. They've no hope at all vs Dublin currently so any improvement in chances is a massive improvement. And the no hope currently comes from a totally stacked playing field in favour of Dublin.

So I haven't misrepresented you at all and my answers are both irrefutable and unchanging.