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Clean Air/Congestion Charging set to be introduced by 2030

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    You mean leave the roads free for people who can afford it while people who can't are priced off the roads?



  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    Congestions charges yes to clear the road of the poors, leaving the inner city streets for those with money. There are lots of minimum wageworkers working in city centres. The reason people choose to drive is because public transport in this country is a mess and underfunded.

    You could be waiting hours for a bus in the rain only for two to come one after another, but now you're soaked and late. I'm okay with the congestions charges if they're proportionate to wages and the money is actually invested into public transport. I don't take the bus because they're unreliable, I 'd actually be faster walking but in the rain and when needing to get to work it's a problem, so i drive. Introducing tax after tax in little old Ireland isn't going to save the planet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    I live near enough in Cork city and it's still a mess. Not reliable at all. I can only imagine others further out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    Trying to pass around carbon emissions from corporations as Carbon Credits, when in the end they're worthless and don't change anything. And a lot of the big polluter companies had a hand in bringing in these.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    "an average is correct" no it's not

    I picked the Golf v eGolf as an example to show how wrong you are in terms of "twice the weight". Also gave an example of the new ID.3.

    Now you can run around for another few posts without admitting you are wrong but I have zero interest. So bang away



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    If you're using the most expensive form of transport you must be rich in the first place. That you're complaining about a charge that's about 0.001% of your annual driving costs confirms it. It's usually the case with someone driving a 3 ton 5.0 diesel SUV around the city.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭ToweringPerformance




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭ToweringPerformance




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Ah yes complaining about having no options in a city. Make sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Makes me laugh when I see a post about the "Motoring poor"….

    Back in the day(even 25 years ago) if your family had a car you were seen as being well off, and most of us who didn't have a car walked/cycled or got the bus to where you wanted to go… Now you're poor if you have a car??

    I call B.S on the "poor worker" example…..

    I don't see a vast cohort of shop workers/minimum wage workers in city centres who have access to free car-parking so one would assume that private car parks are being used and for quick example that's €200 a month in Cork city, add in the cost of running a car, insurance, tax, NCT, Fuel, say another €400 in monthly payments… so in reality how many of these workers after paying €600 a month for the privilege of a private carriage into their minimum wage job is there? Very very few if any! Apart from the fact that there's a large number of people who have come from abroad to work in these low paying jobs that don't have the cash to purchase a private car and a place to park it at home or have passed a driving test…



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    someone commuting on luas/DART/dublin bus/commuter rail will pay €4 a day to get into and out of work; but i'm meant to believe that a significant cohort of minimum wage workers are instead driving into the city centre? what is the 'use case' for someone like that driving in where they can't get public transport?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    If we don't want cycle lanes with bollards, then we need drivers to respect basic traffic markings and not park on cycle lanes and footpaths.

    100% agree with you, I would NEVER park in a cycle lane or on a footpath or stop in a yellow box. I think people just have a park it anywhere attitude and the quality of driving on Irish roads is crap. I still don't understand why they don't lift cars? It would be an incredible deterrent and a money maker

    On the traffic survey numbers, how many people would need to be involved in faking the results of a survey like this? Do you not think that any one of the five or ten people that would be involved would leak the fact of any faked survey to the press or to the Ditch or whoever?

    No one cares enough. And even if you did win and prove your point nothing would be done. Someone high up (Probably not an elected person) decided cycle lanes are happening. Same way someone decided to rip up the train and tram lines years ago cause Cars and Buses were happening.

    Maybe I'll go out there one morning and count them myself, I guarantee no one would give a sh*t and more likely I'd be ridiculed for doing it, or be told I faked the results.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The reason they do surveys and studies is because a sample of one, isn't really a useful indicator of anything.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    there are two possible reasons (not just two, but these are the relevant ones) why the council might put in cycle lanes:

    1. we need to provide cycle lanes to cater for the sheer number of cyclists who are already cycling.
    2. we need to provide cycle lanes to allow people to cycle, because the numbers are low due to a lack of decent cycle lanes.

    i could speculate about which is the reason it was decided to put in cycle lanes, but i think we probably all agree on which of those two reasons was more likely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,597 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    yes it's ridiculous this poor people having to drive cars thing. any office i've worked in in the last 10 or 15 years, pretty much all of the canteen staff and cleaners have been foreign, none of them are driving to work. minimum wage jobs people aren't driving cars around like this thread would have you believe, they can't afford them. measures to reduce the amount of cars in cities will benefit the less well off the most, as they're the ones cycling and taking buses.

    people who decide to buy a house in kildare instead of coolock because they want a nicer house/area made their own bed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    I've a 2015 car that is given me no problems and gets me to and from work. It's not just about me. In all areas we've got taxes being imposed on people and for people who are well off it's no problem, but other people with less money and just making ends meet are being punished harder.

    Eamon Ryan wants us to grow salads in our houses, in our windows, but there's people out there who don't even have houses but just a tiny box room. We have EU laws coming in that want to put up airfares because people are getting a cheap Ryanair flight out of this dump of a place to relax and not be ripped off for a few days in the sun.

    Private jets are going to be exempt for the wealthy who fly around for stuff they can do over zoom or to visit a special sporting event. The less well off is the cause and not the massive corporations or rich people. The green party is all taxes, which is not going to save the planet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    I'm using a car that's cheap to run to get me to work every day, (You know the thing, the government wants us to get up early in the morning and do?) You can stay home and grow a salad in your window and pay extra taxes, but it's not going to save the planet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    I'm complaining about taxes on people is not always the answer. You're only hurting people who already have less in society. I live in the city and the transport is ****, I can only imagine the people outside in the middle of nowhere. Turniphead in the Green party would have you walk into the cities.



  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    Have you even read my previous comments? It's not only about this particular instance, but it's all the government and Greeny party have is tax, tax, tax. That's it! Sorting out infrastructure and public transport seems to be too much, despite being a "Wealthy country" Lots of low paid workers work in the city with cheap, run around cars, soon the government will target them even more by taxing combustion engine cars more, and it's the less well off who'll be punished again because they can't buy a brand spanking new EV for €40,000 and so on. Raising more taxes on people on or near the bottom in their lives is not going to save the planet, just making things harder and pushing more people into poverty.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    It still sounds like you just want others to support your expensive, and driving habits. They can breath in your exhaust fumes while their public transport carrying 80 people in one go is delayed by giving priority, your personal transport carrying one person.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Yeah a congestion charge of 0.01% your driving expenses isn't pushing anyone into poverty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Yea I still think the "Motoring Poor" is complete Bull… Apart from that, how sustainable is having a fleet of old bangers clogging up City streets? The answer is it's not..

    As for your other comment "sorting out public transport" …Pure hyperbole!!

    Dublin Bus has 136 routes going through the city, add in Luas, Dart, Suburban rail, private bus companies just how much more "sorting out" would you like? Answer: by reducing the numbers of private vehicles' in the core city centre which are causing delays for public transport then it becomes more efficient…

    If you want to drive your private vehicle through the city centre streets then no one is stopping you..you're on the wrong crusade here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭ballyharpat


    a quick Google gave me this - I could poke more holes in every single statement you have made- your argument is like a sieve.https://www.google.com/search?q=parked+cars+prevent+emergency+vehicle&rlz=1CACCCC_enUS992&oq=parked+cars+prevent+emergency+vehicle&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRifBdIBCTE1NDc3ajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#ip=1



  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    I'll tell you what, Since you don't mind paying for these extra charges, you can cover mine as well. I need my car to get to work on time, Buses are unreliable at the minute and waiting for them, you'd nearly be waiting an hour. Fix public transport first. All the taxes we pay aren't going to save the planet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    Do you think all these extra climate taxes are going to save the planet? When you've got massive countries and corporations putting out so much, it makes Ireland insignificant. I want to get to work and on time. Leo wants us all to get up in the morning, then let him and the government put some of this supposed "Wealth" to work and build up our infrastructure and public transport BEFORE these charges are brought in. After that, most people won't mind. At the minute it's just another poor tax, and it's not going to save the planet.

    Edit: In case you haven't seen



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    umm, according to that link, the top four companies listed are oil and gas companies?

    they're not actually burning the fuel they're selling. someone else is doing that…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    So you need a car to get to work on time due to congestion, caused by cars.

    Your solution to that problem is to encourage more cars.

    Good luck with that.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    I need a car to get to work because buses are practically non-existing. At night, then we've the last bus at 11:30, weekends you'd barely get a taxi. Even my previous job, I wouldn't have had that if i didn't have my own transport. Transport needs to be stepped up quite a bit before taxes are shoved down people's throat under the misguided view of save the planet.

    Everyone uses these yes, but they're given no other choice as it's these corporations that actively lobbied against and continue to lobby against greener energy production. They have most of big powerful world leaders and parties under their thumbs.

    It's these same companies and their rich and wealthy shareholders that avoid paying their fair share of taxes and would only love for all these extra "Climate taxes" to be pushed onto the people. You think these guys are going to cut down their meat intake and opt for insects, or to give up their private jets and other transport? Not a chance!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    See you've made that point before. Live somewhere without public transport. Then complain there's no public transport. Complaining about congestion (charge) while creating, being that congestion. Same thing as complaining about big business, while sustaining that business through consumption and promotion of their products.

    Its going around in circles, literally and figuratively.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    I drove in and out of town (Dublin) on the motorcycle today, got in fairly quick and out quick(ish). It's been a while since I commuted in rush hour on the motorcycle. If I do go in it's usually before 7am and leave around 3pm to avoid traffic. I went in on Howth Road and out on N1(M1) as far as swords

    My Observations:
    1: Light Sequences are rubbish, they seem deliberately poor
    2: There are to many Taxi's in the bus lanes. On the N1 outbound, the bus lane was blocked by cars (all taxis) from Drumcondra to Whitehall. It's obvious that the taxi's are bringing people to the Airport. The solution here is to allow the taxi's to use the tunnel for free (Or cheap) if they have a fair. Fairview also had a lot of taxi's but I had to split off up towards Ballybough.
    3: People cannot drive cars ← I genuinely believe this is the biggest issue of all.
    4: There aren't actually that many cars, it's just everything is moving so slowly. (I was able to filter through fast, did 12k in approx 20 mins)
    5: Pedestrians are careless. They walk out into traffic, I don't get that. I got the Luas from Stephens Green to Parnell St and back again. Mostly blocked and held up by Pedestrians on Nassau St and Delivery vehicles like Vans etc (again on Nassau Street)
    6: Tara St is a joke, Councils handing over a Lane of traffic (and a Bus Lane at that) to developers is completely unacceptable.

    Caveats: Kids are off school.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,125 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Have you ever been to Dublin? Because even if you are fortunate enough to live near a train or Luas line, it might be of limited use to you because of insane levels of overcrowding. And ever since the Cross City Luas was done, the College Street conflict even causes congestion of buses sometimes. Anyone who doesn't think Dublin needs a lot more trains, metros, trams etc cannot be taken seriously.

    As to car mobility being expensive, one trivia factoid is that back in the Soviet Union, they showed the movie "The Grapes of Wrath" to the Soviet people to show them horrible life was in the capitalist West, only to pull it when the Soviet people saw that even the poorest people in the US could own a car. And given that there are almost 3.3 million driver licenses/permits in this country, I'd say people value their mobility.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    3: People cannot drive cars ← I genuinely believe this is the biggest issue of all.

    How do you think that affected traffic flow?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    I think you're on the wrong thread here, this is about reducing gridlock in the core city centre areas, it's not about stopping you from doing anything.

    If a congestion charge is full implemented then the funds can go towards road improvements, active travel and making public transport more efficient due to not having to compete with private individuals in vehicles.

    Like I said a number of posts ago, you're on the wrong crusade here..

    Have a vent here:



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    I know more about Dublin and it's transport systems than you, if you knew anything you'd realise that the overcrowding as you point out is due to the success of public transport and proves we need to keep making public transport more efficient, and a congestion charge will contribute to that success.

    The solution to mobility includes private motor vehicles, but not when there's gridlock caused by overreliance on private transport, even you would agree that faster and cheaper public transport is far more desirable than gridlock.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Have you ever been to Dublin? Because even if you are fortunate enough to live near a train or Luas line, it might be of limited use to you because of insane levels of overcrowding. And ever since the Cross City Luas was done, the College Street conflict even causes congestion of buses sometimes. Anyone who doesn't think Dublin needs a lot more trains, metros, trams etc cannot be taken seriously.

    My wife is after getting a train into the city centre an hour ago and whilst she did text me about something, she didn't mention how overcrowded it is. Are you just referring to certain times during the day when the trains become busier (which as you already know happens across the world even on the best train systems)?

    Yes we need more trains and we need more busses and we need more people using active travel which are all under way. I'm glad that you agree. However, there's no point having more on-street public transport and active travel if our city streets remain congested because of people making the choice to drive into the city! Hence, the government have given the councils an option to help discourage unnecessary private car in city centres usage via congestion charging.

    As to car mobility being expensive, one trivia factoid is that back in the Soviet Union, they showed the movie "The Grapes of Wrath" to the Soviet people to show them horrible life was in the capitalist West, only to pull it when the Soviet people saw that even the poorest people in the US could own a car. And given that there are almost 3.3 million driver licenses/permits in this country, I'd say people value their mobility.

    Not sure what you're trying to add to the discussion here. Are you saying how poor people are quietly hoping to be ina position to be able to drive into the city centres?

    As for people valuing their mobility - who exactly do you think is actually trying to stop people being mobile?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    just following up on that grapes of wrath story, the wikipedia page does indeed state the movie was pulled in the soviet union for that reason - but the article used as a citation to support that does not make that claim. it does state:

    "Despite such restraints, the impact of Ford’s movie in Europe was noteworthy.  Shown behind the Iron Curtain, The Grapes of Wrath elicited the common reaction that “in America even the tramps have cars.”"

    now, that comment itself has its own citations, but there's no mention of it being pulled, that i can see.

    anyway, i'm not sure why we're debating the concept of poor people owning cars as depicted in a hollywood movie.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,945 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Zero-car households will pay the least, one-car households the next least, two-car households a certain amount, and those households with big cars for everyone aged over 17 will pay the most, pretty progressive if you ask me.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    …only if they drive their cars into the centre of our cities (where the local authority has decided to introduce congestion charging)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭ToweringPerformance


    Unfortunately we've absolute tools the ilk of Lewis Hamilton, Di Caprio, Gates etc… telling normal folk they are killing the planet for driving their 15 year old Hyundai to work whilst they fly around the planet in their private jets. I read that fool Di Caprio hired a super yacht last summer for a private 3 day party in the med that emitted more pollution in one hour of travel than an average petrol car does in 100,000 klms of driving but hey he owns a Prius so it's all good 🤣

    They don't give two hoots about the planet they just want people to think they do.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    cool story bro, but we're talking about congestion charges.

    unless there's a valid 'we shouldn't have congestion charges because of leonardo dicaprio's yacht' argument to be made.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,597 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk




  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    We are going around in circles. I drive because public transport is not reliable and to trust that you'd miss out on appointments and being late for work. I'm only against congestion charges if infrastructure and public transport is not sorted out first and of course it needs to be proportional to a person's wages because a €50 charge to a low wageworker costs much more than €50 does to someone on €100,000+. The Green Party lives in a bubble, Not everyone can afford to pay massive amounts of money to retrofit their home or buy new cars with lower emissions, but they'll be saddled with all the charges and taxes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    Right thread, actually. I think the charges should be proportional to wages because if not then it's another poor tax. I don't mind once we've got a decent public transport system in place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    Some people need their cars to get to work, as the public transport is a load of crap. Still not right to bring them in first while Transport infrastructure is not in place. It's not progressive if the charge costs the same for everyone, Should be adjusted for wages otherwise it's a poor tax and making the roads only for the wealthy enough people with money to spare.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    I actually agree with you the charges should be proportional, but not to each individuals wages that would be an administrative nightmare! Would have to charge separate amounts to say a families shared car between the adult children/spouse.. who was driving at the time like??

    The charges can be like crossing the East Link toll bridge, less for motorcycles, more for cars and more for trucks..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    I'm not sure if you know this but the congestion zones will be in core city areas where 136 Dublin bus routes go through, plus numerous private busses, Luas, Dart.. there's the option of renting "Go-Car", there's Dublin bikes, Moby bikes..

    Only workers I know that get free parking in Dublin city centre are civil servants, everyone else pays at least €200 per month privately…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Public transport into the city is very reliable, the only times there's delays is when coming from the city centre due to congestion caused by private vehicles, generally clogging bus lanes too! A city centre congestion charge will alleviate that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,125 ✭✭✭SeanW


    So you claim, but your post genuinely smacks of Marie Antoinette's "let them eat cake" vibes. I was at the coalface of what passed for public transport in Dublin for the best part of a decade. It was a nightmare then and it's probably worse now:

    I've seen people passing out on the DART because overcrowding was so severe.
    I've been on buses, Luases and taxis that were stuck for half an hour in a bus-traffic-jam trying to get through the College Street pinch-point, the latter being made worse, not better, by the Luas Cross City.
    I've also struggled to find a place to stand on a Luas tram leaving SSG towards Cherrywood.
    I was at a public information session for the Dublin Metro and one consultant I was speaking to said he have to be on a train before 7AM (Hazelhatch line) to get a seat.

    The poster you replied to was entirely correct to suggest that public transport in Dublin is not adequate. Not by a large margin. As to your query:

    Dublin Bus has 136 routes going through the city, add in Luas, Dart, Suburban rail, private bus companies just how much more "sorting out" would you like?

    Here's my list as a bare minimum:

    1. Dublin MetroLink as currently planned
    2. A reactivation of the Southern half of the Metro plan: The Green Line Luas is no longer fit for purpose.
    3. A reactivation of the DART Underground plan.
    4. Massive improvements in capacity on all the existing DART + Commuter lines.

    As to how this might be funded, AFAIK transport funding including capital investment has never taken more than 3% of exchequer funding in any year. There's definitely room for capital spending on transport.



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