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Clean Air/Congestion Charging set to be introduced by 2030

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  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    I need a car to get to work because buses are practically non-existing. At night, then we've the last bus at 11:30, weekends you'd barely get a taxi. Even my previous job, I wouldn't have had that if i didn't have my own transport. Transport needs to be stepped up quite a bit before taxes are shoved down people's throat under the misguided view of save the planet.

    Everyone uses these yes, but they're given no other choice as it's these corporations that actively lobbied against and continue to lobby against greener energy production. They have most of big powerful world leaders and parties under their thumbs.

    It's these same companies and their rich and wealthy shareholders that avoid paying their fair share of taxes and would only love for all these extra "Climate taxes" to be pushed onto the people. You think these guys are going to cut down their meat intake and opt for insects, or to give up their private jets and other transport? Not a chance!



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,706 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    See you've made that point before. Live somewhere without public transport. Then complain there's no public transport. Complaining about congestion (charge) while creating, being that congestion. Same thing as complaining about big business, while sustaining that business through consumption and promotion of their products.

    Its going around in circles, literally and figuratively.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,565 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    I drove in and out of town (Dublin) on the motorcycle today, got in fairly quick and out quick(ish). It's been a while since I commuted in rush hour on the motorcycle. If I do go in it's usually before 7am and leave around 3pm to avoid traffic. I went in on Howth Road and out on N1(M1) as far as swords

    My Observations:
    1: Light Sequences are rubbish, they seem deliberately poor
    2: There are to many Taxi's in the bus lanes. On the N1 outbound, the bus lane was blocked by cars (all taxis) from Drumcondra to Whitehall. It's obvious that the taxi's are bringing people to the Airport. The solution here is to allow the taxi's to use the tunnel for free (Or cheap) if they have a fair. Fairview also had a lot of taxi's but I had to split off up towards Ballybough.
    3: People cannot drive cars ← I genuinely believe this is the biggest issue of all.
    4: There aren't actually that many cars, it's just everything is moving so slowly. (I was able to filter through fast, did 12k in approx 20 mins)
    5: Pedestrians are careless. They walk out into traffic, I don't get that. I got the Luas from Stephens Green to Parnell St and back again. Mostly blocked and held up by Pedestrians on Nassau St and Delivery vehicles like Vans etc (again on Nassau Street)
    6: Tara St is a joke, Councils handing over a Lane of traffic (and a Bus Lane at that) to developers is completely unacceptable.

    Caveats: Kids are off school.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,776 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Have you ever been to Dublin? Because even if you are fortunate enough to live near a train or Luas line, it might be of limited use to you because of insane levels of overcrowding. And ever since the Cross City Luas was done, the College Street conflict even causes congestion of buses sometimes. Anyone who doesn't think Dublin needs a lot more trains, metros, trams etc cannot be taken seriously.

    As to car mobility being expensive, one trivia factoid is that back in the Soviet Union, they showed the movie "The Grapes of Wrath" to the Soviet people to show them horrible life was in the capitalist West, only to pull it when the Soviet people saw that even the poorest people in the US could own a car. And given that there are almost 3.3 million driver licenses/permits in this country, I'd say people value their mobility.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,558 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    3: People cannot drive cars ← I genuinely believe this is the biggest issue of all.

    How do you think that affected traffic flow?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,589 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    I think you're on the wrong thread here, this is about reducing gridlock in the core city centre areas, it's not about stopping you from doing anything.

    If a congestion charge is full implemented then the funds can go towards road improvements, active travel and making public transport more efficient due to not having to compete with private individuals in vehicles.

    Like I said a number of posts ago, you're on the wrong crusade here..

    Have a vent here:



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,589 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    I know more about Dublin and it's transport systems than you, if you knew anything you'd realise that the overcrowding as you point out is due to the success of public transport and proves we need to keep making public transport more efficient, and a congestion charge will contribute to that success.

    The solution to mobility includes private motor vehicles, but not when there's gridlock caused by overreliance on private transport, even you would agree that faster and cheaper public transport is far more desirable than gridlock.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,020 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Have you ever been to Dublin? Because even if you are fortunate enough to live near a train or Luas line, it might be of limited use to you because of insane levels of overcrowding. And ever since the Cross City Luas was done, the College Street conflict even causes congestion of buses sometimes. Anyone who doesn't think Dublin needs a lot more trains, metros, trams etc cannot be taken seriously.

    My wife is after getting a train into the city centre an hour ago and whilst she did text me about something, she didn't mention how overcrowded it is. Are you just referring to certain times during the day when the trains become busier (which as you already know happens across the world even on the best train systems)?

    Yes we need more trains and we need more busses and we need more people using active travel which are all under way. I'm glad that you agree. However, there's no point having more on-street public transport and active travel if our city streets remain congested because of people making the choice to drive into the city! Hence, the government have given the councils an option to help discourage unnecessary private car in city centres usage via congestion charging.

    As to car mobility being expensive, one trivia factoid is that back in the Soviet Union, they showed the movie "The Grapes of Wrath" to the Soviet people to show them horrible life was in the capitalist West, only to pull it when the Soviet people saw that even the poorest people in the US could own a car. And given that there are almost 3.3 million driver licenses/permits in this country, I'd say people value their mobility.

    Not sure what you're trying to add to the discussion here. Are you saying how poor people are quietly hoping to be ina position to be able to drive into the city centres?

    As for people valuing their mobility - who exactly do you think is actually trying to stop people being mobile?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,558 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    just following up on that grapes of wrath story, the wikipedia page does indeed state the movie was pulled in the soviet union for that reason - but the article used as a citation to support that does not make that claim. it does state:

    "Despite such restraints, the impact of Ford’s movie in Europe was noteworthy.  Shown behind the Iron Curtain, The Grapes of Wrath elicited the common reaction that “in America even the tramps have cars.”"

    now, that comment itself has its own citations, but there's no mention of it being pulled, that i can see.

    anyway, i'm not sure why we're debating the concept of poor people owning cars as depicted in a hollywood movie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Zero-car households will pay the least, one-car households the next least, two-car households a certain amount, and those households with big cars for everyone aged over 17 will pay the most, pretty progressive if you ask me.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,020 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    …only if they drive their cars into the centre of our cities (where the local authority has decided to introduce congestion charging)



  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭ToweringPerformance


    Unfortunately we've absolute tools the ilk of Lewis Hamilton, Di Caprio, Gates etc… telling normal folk they are killing the planet for driving their 15 year old Hyundai to work whilst they fly around the planet in their private jets. I read that fool Di Caprio hired a super yacht last summer for a private 3 day party in the med that emitted more pollution in one hour of travel than an average petrol car does in 100,000 klms of driving but hey he owns a Prius so it's all good 🤣

    They don't give two hoots about the planet they just want people to think they do.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,558 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    cool story bro, but we're talking about congestion charges.

    unless there's a valid 'we shouldn't have congestion charges because of leonardo dicaprio's yacht' argument to be made.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk




  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    We are going around in circles. I drive because public transport is not reliable and to trust that you'd miss out on appointments and being late for work. I'm only against congestion charges if infrastructure and public transport is not sorted out first and of course it needs to be proportional to a person's wages because a €50 charge to a low wageworker costs much more than €50 does to someone on €100,000+. The Green Party lives in a bubble, Not everyone can afford to pay massive amounts of money to retrofit their home or buy new cars with lower emissions, but they'll be saddled with all the charges and taxes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    Right thread, actually. I think the charges should be proportional to wages because if not then it's another poor tax. I don't mind once we've got a decent public transport system in place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Scipri0


    Some people need their cars to get to work, as the public transport is a load of crap. Still not right to bring them in first while Transport infrastructure is not in place. It's not progressive if the charge costs the same for everyone, Should be adjusted for wages otherwise it's a poor tax and making the roads only for the wealthy enough people with money to spare.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,589 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    I actually agree with you the charges should be proportional, but not to each individuals wages that would be an administrative nightmare! Would have to charge separate amounts to say a families shared car between the adult children/spouse.. who was driving at the time like??

    The charges can be like crossing the East Link toll bridge, less for motorcycles, more for cars and more for trucks..



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,589 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    I'm not sure if you know this but the congestion zones will be in core city areas where 136 Dublin bus routes go through, plus numerous private busses, Luas, Dart.. there's the option of renting "Go-Car", there's Dublin bikes, Moby bikes..

    Only workers I know that get free parking in Dublin city centre are civil servants, everyone else pays at least €200 per month privately…



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,589 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Public transport into the city is very reliable, the only times there's delays is when coming from the city centre due to congestion caused by private vehicles, generally clogging bus lanes too! A city centre congestion charge will alleviate that.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,776 ✭✭✭SeanW


    So you claim, but your post genuinely smacks of Marie Antoinette's "let them eat cake" vibes. I was at the coalface of what passed for public transport in Dublin for the best part of a decade. It was a nightmare then and it's probably worse now:

    I've seen people passing out on the DART because overcrowding was so severe.
    I've been on buses, Luases and taxis that were stuck for half an hour in a bus-traffic-jam trying to get through the College Street pinch-point, the latter being made worse, not better, by the Luas Cross City.
    I've also struggled to find a place to stand on a Luas tram leaving SSG towards Cherrywood.
    I was at a public information session for the Dublin Metro and one consultant I was speaking to said he have to be on a train before 7AM (Hazelhatch line) to get a seat.

    The poster you replied to was entirely correct to suggest that public transport in Dublin is not adequate. Not by a large margin. As to your query:

    Dublin Bus has 136 routes going through the city, add in Luas, Dart, Suburban rail, private bus companies just how much more "sorting out" would you like?

    Here's my list as a bare minimum:

    1. Dublin MetroLink as currently planned
    2. A reactivation of the Southern half of the Metro plan: The Green Line Luas is no longer fit for purpose.
    3. A reactivation of the DART Underground plan.
    4. Massive improvements in capacity on all the existing DART + Commuter lines.

    As to how this might be funded, AFAIK transport funding including capital investment has never taken more than 3% of exchequer funding in any year. There's definitely room for capital spending on transport.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,706 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You drive because you live where there's almost no public transport.

    It's got nothing to all the other stuff. That's just smoke screen so you can keep driving at the expense of others.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,589 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    This is the thread about bringing in a city centre congestion charge, and for someone who never/rarely goes anywhere remotely near the core city centre to offer up anecdotal evidence that Dublin's public transport system is a "nightmare" is laughable..

    What's even worse is the tactic of saying that if people are to avoid paying congestion charges to clog up the streets with their private cars then you want a €9.5 billion euro metrolink plus a couple of gold-plated multi-year multi-billion Euro transport projects before you and the what's the figure again 3.3 million people with driving licences? Will think about paying a charge to drive into the city? Sure next you'll be asking for a flying taxi…!

    https://www.newstalk.com/news/congestion-charge-obvious-solution-to-dublin-intolerable-traffic-jams-1712362



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,776 ✭✭✭SeanW


    What's bizarre is claiming that Irish public transport is anything close to being at an acceptable level. A congestion charge presumes that there are adequate alternatives and this is simply not the case in Dublin.

    Telling people to take public transport in Dublin instead of driving is literally on the same level as Marie Antoinette telling the poor people in Paris who couldn't afford bread to "Let them eat cake." It only makes sense if you've either never been to Dublin or are trying to blow smoke up people's backsides. As to my list of "gold plated projects" these are IMO the bare minimum necessary to bring public transport in Dublin up to an acceptable level.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,589 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    I think unless there was nothing less than a Japanese style bullet train outside your place of residence to take you into Dublin in 10 minutes flat then you'd still want to use your private motor vehicle (which is fine, just cough up for the part of the congestion you're causing whilst visiting our city).. So good luck!



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,776 ✭✭✭SeanW


    No, I gave my list of minimum pre-requisites. PT just has to be fit-for-purpose, as now it most certainly is not. But keep trying to blow smoke up our collective rear ends.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,565 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,558 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'm not denying the standard of driving is pants, just wondering how you think it affects traffic flow; people not copping 'i'm in the junction so i have priority', getting stuck there and snarling the whole place up sort of thing?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,706 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Slows up impatient drivers as they race between red lights.

    Traffic complaining about traffic.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk




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