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EU patent court referendum

2

Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,341 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    1. Yes, by the very nature of what it is about
    2. Not really; it's about enforcement of an EU wide patent that's already been issued to stop a company from having to go to every individual country for disputes (expensive) for an EU wide patent dispute for the review and ensure consistency between countries (currently 17 countries have signed up)
    3. How long is a piece of string? If a company in Poland and Hungary would infringe then the Irish company would need to dispute it in two different local courts with local lawyers compared to one court in English. How often does it happen? Stats unavailable in the first place.

    This for me is a classic example of what EU should be about, simplification of enforcement of an EU wide patent and consistency in how the review is done (as it's an EU wide patent in the first place). How someone thinks this somehow diminish the Irish courts to not spend time reviewing EU wide patent infringements done in Ireland instead of dealing with more important issues is beyond my understanding honestly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Let's look at this a different way then. Who has been pushing and lobbying for this? That would be useful to know.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Surely this is what the single market is all about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    It's a while since we've had a referendum related to EU matters. I can't recall them all but have either voted in the affirmative on the first vote in them all or in a repeat.

    That doesn't mean we shouldn't question. And we have seen the EU having a greater effect on the ordinary citizen in the last decade and a bit. From saving the German banks to nitrates directives to taking in more migrants to this duplicity of a RVM return scheme and so on.

    So we need to examine these things as a public and decide what is in our best interests.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 744 ✭✭✭POBox19


    I'll probably vote Don't Know, because this is the very first I've heard about it. Thanks to the good folks on here debating it that I'll spend some time reading up on it beforehand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I dunno, persuade me.

    I do know that international intellectual property rights & patents are not the concern by and large of the ordinary citizen and I'd question how many home grown Irish businesses have a stake in this.

    So is this being done for the sake of the big MNCs - the tech and medical/ pharma sectors? If so, that should be clear. That's all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭Kiteview


    It started before the vote. A huge part of the referendum campaign (and indeed the build up it over several years) was that the U.K. could leave the EU and have a Norwegian or Swiss or Turkish style arrangement depending on what the U.K. wanted (and that the EU and/or EFTA countries would count themselves lucky to have any of the arrangements with the U.K.). It was only after the referendum vote - and May’s Mansion House speech - that Brexit started to crystallise into the “hardest of hard Brexit” option.

    As an aside, I have seen one reputable journalist claim that May’s hardline Brexit speech was written by an (unelected) political adviser and she hadn’t seen it until she was handed it as she walked up to the podium, so their policy on Brexit was literally foisted upon them by a political adviser without any cabinet input whatsoever.



  • Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭Kiteview


    The governments of the member states of the EU are the ones that have been pushing for it.

    You don’t get any international treaty to be ratified unless each and every one of the governments concerned decide they want one and then sit down and negotiate one.


    The more relevant question to ask is why - when our government agrees to an international treaty it decides that Ireland wants / needs - you would want to prevent Ireland ratifying a treaty (be it an EU one or not)?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,600 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Surely the current system would only benefit those with the deepest pockets since making court cases in multiple jurisdictions would be the least onerous on them, whereas the small Irish firm exporting a niche product might struggle to manage and pay for all of that legal work.

    Let's see what the Irish Law lobby says about it. If they come out strongly against it then that's probably a good indication that the current system mostly benefits the legal industry (both here and in other countries).



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    l

    Home grown Irish businesses are the ones far less likely to have the means and resources to litigate these issues in every individual country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,444 ✭✭✭crusd


    That's all well and good but EU Bad blah blah blah



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,444 ✭✭✭crusd


    The RVM is a good idea. That Irish people cant be arsed bringing a few bottles with them to the shop or using a reusable water bottle is hardly the fault of the EU



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    The government may be pushing for it - but who has been lobbying the government for this? Nothing like this happens without lobbying and plenty of money thrown at it. I don't know but I expect we will hear more about this. The issue is remote from the average voter but we can be quite sure it's important to some entities. But just who??

    Maybe but somehow or other I suspect that Irish businesses are not by & large at the cutting edge of very valuable developments that require this enhanced IP and patent legislation. That's not to say IP and patent protections are not important to some here but how much value are in these to justify the change. Let's remember they already have such protections through the various EU individual states.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    IBEC have been quite vocal about their support for this

    https://www.ibec.ie/connect-and-learn/media/2024/01/24/statement-on-the-unified-patent-court-referendum

    And their membership seems to be very much in support of it

    https://www.ibec.ie/connect-and-learn/media/2023/03/14/hold-referendum-on-the-unified-patent-court-in-november-2023-ibec-and-aptma

    • Over three quarters (78%) of companies indicated that
    they were likely to increase their patenting activity due to Ireland’s
    participation in the Unitary Patent and the Unified Patent Court. 
    • Approximately 83% small and micro enterprises said they
    were very likely to increase their patenting activity on the back of the
    new system. 



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,897 ✭✭✭beachhead


    Purpose of the referendum as I read it is:Patent registered in one EU state is automatically registered in all states.No need then to register an individual patent in every EU country which takes years.Rules out someone stealing your idea in Ireland and running with in greece,Germany etc wherever in EU



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 416 ✭✭StormForce13


    Comment deleted.

    Post edited by StormForce13 on


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think the Collison brothers, who started Stripe, might not agree. A small, but very valuable, idea has made them very rich.

    EU wide patents is the way to go. Irish patents will be as valuable as any other EU patent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I'll keep an open mind. I did ask/ wonder who has been lobbying for this. Perhaps IBEC support but have they been leading the campaign? I get occasional phone calls from pollsters on matters like this and I could well imagine myself saying yes to such a question without really thinking about it or even needing it. It's a bit 'mom and apple pie'.

    I'm sure we'll hear more in due course.



  • Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭Kiteview


    I amn’t sure why you think there is “lobbying” going on.

    This proposal is not a new idea. The member states previously made an effort to have a single ECs wide system back in the 70s and 80s. It failed at the ratification stage due to political inertia and/or vested interests.

    The idea was revived in the early 00s and eventually negotiations were started on it. That resulted in an treaty which was finalised and signed on Feb 19 2013. The treaty did not require every member state to ratify it for it to enter into operation.

    The criteria for it being put into operation has already been met and it is already in operation since Jun 1 last year.

    So the political argument about this is already over as it’s a fait accompli at EU level and in operation.


    Ireland is now trying to “catch up” with the member states that have already completed ratification of it.

    As in every treaty related referendum, we are not being asked to debate the nitty gritty of the treaty (which in particular is pointless in this case). Rather we are being asked to give explicit permission to the Oireachtas to ratify it should the Oireachtas choose to do so (and the Oireachtas remains free to reject doing so even if 100% of the electorate vote yes in the referendum).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,000 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Your first post does not imply an open mind on the topic as you are solely looking for (and failing to find) the negative aspects.

    From an Irish citizen aspect, this would make the patent process here worth it as it would be enforced EU wide or completely worthless as companies won't bother with small markets like Ireland and innovators will be driven out of the country to protect their ideas.

    There might be some convoluted positives that people can come up with, but it seems to be stretching (guessing it will be mostly the brexit-y/anti-EU types that will be arguing this).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    There's always lobbying going on in the background, always. A constitutional change requiring a referendum is a matter of no small cost, risk and bother in Ireland. If there wasn't lobbying for this and pressure being applied, no government here would be bothered with the cost, risk and bother.

    We know that MNCs represented in both tech and pharma are significant in terms of the public finances at the moment. These are exactly the entities that are increasingly concerned in a modern world with IP and patents etc. So if the case, it may be wise to facilitate these MNCs. But the public should be clearly informed if this is the case and that the demand/ lobbying push is coming from this area.

    I want to know what and for whom I'm voting on something for. And presumably many others as well. Not much to ask?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,099 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It sounds like you're trying to spread some sort of conspiracy narrative as opposed to educating yourself. If this referendum is to satisfy corporate interests as you claim, can you prove this?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    You are looking for shadows and sinister machinations where there are none, the change to the constitution literally is to simply allow the Government to ratify the agreement on a unified Patent Court as it entails a transfer of jurisdiction in patent litigation from the Irish courts to an international court.

    You say you want to know what you are voting on yet every comment on it thus far shows you have done absolutely no research or investigations on this yourself bar come up with your own conspiracy theories based on absolutely nothing.

    Its obvious you haven't even read the wording on it.

    11° The State may ratify the Agreement on a Unified Patent Court done at
    Brussels on the 19th day of February 2013. No provision of this
    Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by
    the State that are necessitated by the obligations of the State under
    that Agreement or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted
    by bodies competent under that Agreement from having the force of law in
    the State.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I've said I haven't made up my mind and will follow any debate with interest.

    It is perfectly reasonable to ask just why we conducting this referendum and at who's behest. Who are the primary beneficiaries if it passes. This is baby stuff.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,099 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    If you truly wanted to know, you'd google it and do some work on the topic. Instead, you're pushing a conspiracy narrative. The difference is clear.

    To me, it looks like a technical adjustment to deepen the single market which makes sense. A referendum is only needed because of Ireland's constitutional setup.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Hmm….. I've heard a couple of interviews concerning it and will follow future debate with interest. Why do you just assume that I am pushing some conspiracy narrative. That I believe is the sort of argument used to try and shut down conversation?

    We are often reminded that there are many matters in the constitution that could do with change but since they aren't a priority or causing a major problem, are just left as is due to the nature of referendums. So it is perfectly reasonable to question why this particular proposal for change is being run. We are in a democracy I believe and my view & vote is as good as yours or anyone elses.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,099 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Again, no details on the shadowy organisations are allegedly pushing this referendum. I think it's best to leave it at that.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    We are conducting it because a Supreme Court judgement in Ireland ruled that we have to.

    We are doing it at the Government's behest because they would like to join the incredibly sensible EU wide patent system to simplify and streamline the ability of Irish companies and companies based in Ireland to be able to have EU wide patents enforced.

    There you go, those are your answers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,495 ✭✭✭StrawbsM


    I’ll be voting yes to this based on what I have read so far. I’ll never have any reason to be seeking a patent but looking at the bigger picture, a patent law across all countries is really what EU membership should be about.

    With regards to the local and European elections, I will be voting against the current crop we have. I’ve a suspicion that there will be many protest voters that may have never been inside a polling booth before but will do so in June. More than likely they would vote No in the referendum for no other reason than to give two fingers to the government.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    "We are conducting it because a Supreme Court judgement in Ireland ruled that we have to."

    Now yer talking - thank you. Do you know who took a case to the Supreme Court that resulted in this judgement?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Who cares and why does it matter?

    It was decades ago and nothing to do with this particular issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Well clearly it does matter, if as you say "We are conducting it because a Supreme Court judgement in Ireland ruled that we have to". This case must have some compelling relevance? And therefore we should care about it.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The Supreme court judgement was not on this case.

    This is very basic information that has already been provided to you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Yes if we want to implement the EU wide patent system we would need a constitutional amendment, how are you still not getting this? Not everything is a conspiracy theory.

    The Supreme court has nothing to do with this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Ah look, you have us totally confused now! You wrote

    "We are conducting it because a Supreme Court judgement in Ireland ruled that we have to.

    We are doing it at the Government's behest because they would like to join the incredibly sensible EU wide patent system to simplify and streamline the ability of Irish companies and companies based in Ireland to be able to have EU wide patents enforced."

    Now you advise that "The Supreme court judgement was not on this case."

    Which is it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    You wrote "Yes they ruled if we want to implement the EU wide patent system we would need a constitutional amendment, how are you still not getting this? Not everything is a conspiracy theory."

    No conspiracy theory here!! Just basic questions as to why we are conducting an expensive referendum on this matter, which has been noted is of minimal if any relevance to the ordinary public.

    Podge says there was a case and that's why we're having. You initially wrote 'Yes they ruled if we want to implement the EU wide patent system we would need a constitutional amendment'.

    So it looks like there was a Supreme Court case and there was some relevant ruling?? But Supreme Court cases don't just happen of their own accord, who took and why. Was it our President or the AG or a commercial entity?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It was the Crotty case in the 80s. You can read the judgement here.

    https://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IESC/1987/4.html

    This judgement requires that essentially any EU treaty that involves any change in our relationship with the EU or transfer of any autonomy needs a referendum. Frankly I think it was a stupid judgement, but it exists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    JFC this is absurd please can a mod step in and stop this posters nonsense? Already reported several of their obviously bad faith argument posts and nothings happened



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Thank you. Now I recall Mr.Crotty alright, a thorny individual. Like Ms.McKenna, an upholder of basic standards and keeping the authorities in line, even if the consequences are sometimes awkward.

    So this is why legally we are required to have a referendum rather than the government just passing it. Still leaves me wondering why the government considers to be an important matter that requires the political risk of a referendum. I'm sure this will become clearer in the coming weeks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,444 ✭✭✭crusd


    The reality is the only beneficiaries of the status quo are lawyers/

    How will the permanently outraged reconcile their hatred of everything EU with their hatred of lawyers?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Kinda speaks to how this referendum might get hijacked by Bad Faith types when something this dry and perfunctory "has" to have some chicanery or dark money behind it all. This is why like I said, I can see it being rejected just purely out of caution by the ignorant, or paranoia by those thusly afflicted. Obviously discounting people who have genuine intellectual concerns about it, of course.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,600 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    This is my misunderstanding arising from this post:

    I understood Podge to be answering my question re lobbying with a reference to a Supreme Court judgement, which as read appeared to be related directly to IP or patents etc. But they were referring simply to the requirement to have a referendum.

    That misunderstanding is cleared up. My main query isn't but it will surely when there's any campaign run.

    FYI, I have business reasons to be concerned about copyright, IP and so on. So I have a little skin in the game and likely more than most commenting here. But being a small fish, I also know that it's of little real relevance as such law is for those with deep pockets and that ain't going to change. We shall wait & see.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭SunnySundays


    It's almost unbelievable that some people are so intellectually deficient that they would vote no, just because the government would like a yes vote.

    Vote no if you don't like the proposal,or even if you don't understand it but to be too stupid to actually research it, listen to what those who regularly use patents etc, want, is just disappointing. It really shows a lack of intelligence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭PommieBast




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    The UPC has been in the making about as long as the European Patent Convention (1973), call it 50 years. It’s taken that long, and a little help from the EU in the final straight (note: EPC and European patent system have nothing whatsoever to do with the EU / EEC before that).

    So much for R&D, IP as a profession, FDI and more, acceding to the UPC would approach game-changing territory for Ireland, being an EU member state, having English as a national language, a jurisdictional heritage mixing aspects of common law and jurisprudence in IP litigation tracking British precedent relatively closely (*not* a bad thing), still featuring strong advantages for domiciliating both high tech R&D and IP holding companies, besides academic hotbeds of R&D and one of best educated workforces going.

    It could (managed well, it should) do for tech and IP in Ireland, what Brexit did to finance for you guys, for exactly the same reasons: had the U.K. not Brexited, London would have had one of the UPC’s 3 Central Divisions since day one. The UPCA and the Rules of Procedures of the UPC are very British legal system-based and -influenced, you can feel the influence which the success of the UK’s IPEC had in it. But well, Brexit, so that Central Division went to Milan instead, and so there still isn’t a Local Division that ‘appeals’ to anglophile litigants…until (if) Dublin comes online.

    Contrarians, conspiracists and assorted other nayers, do all the damage you will do about EU and local elections. But please, please, take a leaf out of Geert Wilders’ latest book: BR, N, IR -exit is for the terminally-stupid, never more so than in a situation like this, wherein everybody benefits (and no, you won’t find Big Law arguing against it: ever since Philips v Remington epilady cases around Europe (look it up, based on EP 0101656B1), pan- or cross-European patent litigation just didn’t happen/there was no market/money for it: too costly and, crucially, far too uncertain).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    That's all very convoluted - can you explain in simpler terms?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    That was very much the TL;DR version with simpler terms.

    I can give it another go: “Unified Patent Court good for Ireland plc and all who sail in her; vote yes”.

    What terms, or expressions, or sentences give you difficulty?



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