Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

EU patent court referendum

13»

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,523 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    how is it of minimal/ any relevance to the ordinary public? Anyone or any company owned by any member of the public can apply for patents, not just an elite few multinationals, and now its being proposed they only need to do it once instead of multiple times across the EU. It's hugely beneficial to any Irish person or company involved to implement this.

    Post edited by Cookie_Monster on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Because some people unfortunately think everything is zero sum, so if they aren't obviously winning then they must be losing somehow and there's some machievelian conspiracy to make that happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I don't really want any more patients thanks :)

    Look my experience, limited and all as it is: of copyright, IP and patents is that it's all fine and dandy in theory. But in reality this is law and business for big entities. You need deep pockets to pursue such rights that may be being abused. Business law is expensive. I'd have an interest in IP rights over some of my product but could I as a small business ever manage to enforce my rights. In theory yes, in reality no. You can argue that the proposed change will make it easier in theory but that don't make it going to happen in practice.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    You can argue that the proposed change will make it easier in theory but that don't make it going to happen in practice.

    It literally will make it easier. There is no logical counter-argument to that.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,099 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    There's an actual patent attorney trying to explain this to you but for some reason you're still trotting out this conspiracy theory.

    Anything that advances the single market advances Irish interests. Blindly opposing the government on every referendum for its own sake is the sort of anti-intellectual nonsense that caused Brexit.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,074 ✭✭✭blackwhite




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,255 ✭✭✭nachouser


    It's always amusing to see someone take a position based on zero information and then argue backwards from there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,099 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Well, I'm not an expert in patent law but as I see things right now, access to an international standard for patents will make Irish firms more competitive, reduce bureaucracy and foster innovation.

    I see no cons whatsoever.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    My own wee bit of reading:

    https://www.charteredaccountants.ie/News/understanding-the-referendum-on-the-unified-patent-court

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2024-02-29/36/

    These paras from above seem relevant:

    Neale Richmond "Participating in the UPC is also strategically important for our national competitiveness as we are increasingly trying to attract and develop R&D activities here in Ireland. We all know that foreign-owned firms have a strong impact on the Irish economy by contributing substantially to Ireland’s exports, jobs, expenditure in the Irish economy and Exchequer funds. Our participation will enhance Ireland’s reputation as a high-tech economy with strong IP protections. This will boost our attractiveness to foreign multinational companies already established here and those that are making decisions on where to invest.

    Seventeen countries have already ratified, including Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Netherlands and Sweden. These countries are our direct competitors when it comes to attracting foreign companies. Competition for American investment in Europe is intense. We must keep upping our game in terms of our value proposition. We want to ensure that Ireland remains well positioned to sustain our success in attracting FDI. Intellectual property protections are one of the factors that investors cite when making investment decisions. Our participation in the unified patent court represents for Ireland an opportunity to enhance the credibility of our messages to inward investors, namely, that Ireland is an attractive location for high-tech and research, development and innovation activities; that the Government recognises the value of intellectual property to enterprise; that it is committed to providing a supportive environment for the development of IP and for protecting and enforcing IP; and that Ireland is a serious competitor for IP-based foreign investment. I believe that if Ireland does not ratify the agreement, there would be a real risk of reputational and operational damage to Ireland’s innovation economy, as non-participation may be perceived as a legislative and structural weakness."

    and from chartered accountants:

    "If the referendum is carried, the Government has signalled its intention to establish a local division of the UPC in Ireland. Doing so would mean Ireland would be the only common law, native English-speaking jurisdiction with a UPC. 
    Coupled with Ireland’s already attractive tax regime for research and development, the establishment of a local UPC would arguably further boost the State’s profile as a location of choice for inward investment.
    "

    So a compelling reason being given to vote Yes is to support and increase FDI. If that is the case, this should be stated clearly to the public - Paddy likes to Know as Enda I think it was, once said.

    Why is there no government information of note on this? We're two months out, it's a technical issue and in my experience, I haven't heard or seen any coverage of note in the media. Are they just hoping it'll fly under the radar and as we get closer, government reps will say well it's hard to explain in simple terms, so just vote yes?



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,099 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I don't think you're engaging in good faith. I notice that you've not responded to the patent attorney who attempted to explain this to you. Instead, you're just using the JAQ trope once again.

    You've ended with more conspiracy rhetoric as well. If you want to know, why not email your TD or do some research? If I'd to guess, I'd say the government haven't gotten around to it yet.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    What on earth do you mean? I'm looking at two credible sources - the Chartered Accountants of Ireland and Dáil Éireann.

    I'm reading these and trying to discern a) why politically we're having this referendum and b) who are the main beneficiaries of a positive result and c) are there any negatives. If you're not interested in this, fine but don't be criticising others of bad faith by asking questions? Some of us like to think with our own heads and not just straight up accept the narrative that's fed. Is this not what boards is for??



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It's not remotely hard to explain in simple terms and it has been explained in simple terms here. You get to file and enforce one patent instead of 18 or 20. It has many benefits and no downsides for those protecting patents. It has downsides for those attempting to infringe patents.

    If you struggle to understand those simple terms or are being deliberately obtuse that is on you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    OK thank you - you've answered my third query.

    But not a) why politically we're having this referendum and b) who are the main beneficiaries of a positive result?

    Having referendums is a risky political business, is it not?

    And is it true, that this is mainly for the benefit of FDI and MNCs?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Mod: these have been answered. Stop with this nonsense now.
    You didn't appreciate me giving you an informal warning last time so I'm fairly sure that you won't appreciate my action next time!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,495 ✭✭✭StrawbsM


    just heard on the news that this referendum might be postponed.
    I think postponement is a smart move. There’s enough going on with the locals and euros without trying to convince an already peed off electorate to vote yes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,600 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Anyone know the actual reasoning why they are thinking of postponing it?

    I'm not sure having a standalone referendum at a later date might be the wisest thing for something this dry and technical.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    I think it makes sense to postpone, this referendum while not ground breakingly important should absolutely be passed and its very risky right now as we've seen just from the bad faith actor in this thread.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,099 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Agreed. The last thing I'd do after losing two referenda is introduce a third, nebulous one ripe for sabotage by various rightist outlets.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,022 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    The fact a referendum would need to be held at all on that issue is a quirk (or weakness) in our political system that becomes very exploitable in current environment.

    Unfortunately democracies are going to have to grasp the nettle of "bad faith actors" using social media/the internet to squirt nonsense and/or poison into the brains of their citizens, or I am afraid a lot of them won't survive.

    You can't postpone questions forever, and some things (not this!) need direct democracy/referendums to decide them properly I think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    Not just the right who oppose "Europe" (leaving aside the EPO being a separate organisation from the EU). A lot on the left who don't understand IPR and think everything should be "free" will try to vote it down as well. The 2010 EU software patent directive had a lot of the latter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Just for clarity - who is this 'patent attorney' that you've referred to several times? I've read the thread more than once and maybe I've missed it but I don't see anyone declaring themselves to be a patent attorney. Can you clarify.

    I very much hope that you not referring to my good self as a 'bad faith actor'! If so, please note that I absolutely refute this and it'd be decent of you to acknowledge this. The fact that others may allege I've posted in 'bad faith' means nothing at all. It's quite the slur and I resent it.

    But to the greater issue: why is it/ will it be deferred/ cancelled? I've heard nothing other than a suggestion on the news. Notable that very little general media interest. What's up, politically?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    ##Mod Note##

    You've had 2 explicit warnings about this type of post already.

    3rd Strike - You're out.

    Don't post in this thread again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,281 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    My guess would be the Government sense pent-up ill will from the populace. The local and European elections will probably be bad news for Government parties, especially FFG. In addition to the defeat of the March referendums, I don't see how this Government is capable of selling this one accurately in the current political climate.

    I'd argue that this referendum is more important in practical terms as it's straightforward and affects our relationship with the EU as opposed to the wishy-washy, domestic nature of the March referendums. Therefore, it's essential to run a good, informative campaign and not one that'll be tied up in local/European electioneering and the potential for a No vote because of anti-Government sentiment as opposed to considering the referendum on its merits.

    If the referendum is run separately, it'll be a boring and detail-based campaign and there's little room for the emotive campaigning of opponents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


     and there's little room for the emotive campaigning of opponents.

    I admire your optimism, but here's a few arguments that have nothing to do with patents but will 100% be repeated over and over whenever this referendum does happen;

    • giving away more of our sovereignity to unelected Eurocrats
    • this will mean job losses in Ireland
    • why are we having this vote when we still haven't fixed housing/health/immigration
    • this will mean an influx of immigrants
    • if you don't know, vote no

    This is the reality we live in now. The days of actually discussing things on their merits are behind us.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,099 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Yeah, this is the thing. It'll be very easy for bad actors to argue against this referendum and almost impossible for anyone else to argue for it. It's the sort of technical issue that's particularly ill-suited to a binary referendum.

    I'm hoping there'll be a strong yes case made but I'm not optimistic.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Yup its being postponed, definitely the right call

    https://www.thejournal.ie/patent-referendum-postponed-6356216-Apr2024/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    Yep, given the circumstances. What I am unsure is whether right thing is postponing it until another amendment also needs to be voted on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,600 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Is there anything else on the Referendum backlog?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,172 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Overseas franchise for Presidential elections (e.g. the SF Presidents Forever referendum, due to second/third-gen Bostonians etc), which I suspect is never going to proceed.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 67 ✭✭reactadabtc


    Mod: Please read and abide by the forum charter before deciding to post in the Politics forum again

    Post edited by Seth Brundle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,600 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I don't believe anybody is arguing that 2nd or third generation emigrants would be getting a vote.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Wouldn't a UK style thing where you have to have been registered to vote in Ireland at some point be enough to stop that? Rather easy way to overcome any major issues.

    Kind of hard to know if it is the right call unless we know when it is postponed to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,172 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The broad heads were "citizens", which lots of those are; so that was and is the proposal on the cards currently.

    There are >3rd gen cases where the Foreign Births Register was used properly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,425 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    I would hope they are postponing till after the election so whoever forms the government can ride their initial wave to pass this without too much nonsense



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,994 ✭✭✭ambro25


    It would be easy enough to argue for the UPC referendum (with simple facts) and easier still to counter populist ‘anti’ messaging that is bound to be wholly irrelevant to the issue: the patent profession is expert at simplifying highly-complex and -technical legislation, often as not in multinational contexts, to help its business/lay clients understand enough for reaching decisions, and Ireland’s patent profession is way up there with the best, intimately familiar with the EPC and the UPC itself (-already, irrespective of Ireland’s non-membership), including how little the EU actually has to do with it at all (the UPC -Court- is its own jurisdiction, not an ‘EU’ Court…though very ironically, the UPC Register and UPCoAppeal are based about 200 meters across the road from the CJEU in Luxembourg 😜).

    The challenge stems from who would be doing that arguing for Ireland to sign up to the UPCA, namely business interests and the government, maybe with a side helping of STEM academia - and the voting population’s sentiment about these entities and their messaging.

    And then…we’ve all witnessed what happened in another binary referendum not so many years ago, wherein arguing for maintaining the status quo, and countering rethoric with facts readily understandable by the general population, should have been a cakewalk and yield a comfortable majority against Brexit.

    Whether the decision to postpone the referendum is right or wrong, is moot: factually, that decision postpones the opportunities for Ireland anticipated from, and associated with, accession to the UPCA and, in that respect at least, the ‘anti’ side scored a win by default. A battle, for sure, not the war…but still.



Advertisement