EU patent court referendum

dublincc2

So the next referendum will be held on the same date as the local and European elections and will be on ratification of the agreement on a European patent court.

I for one like many will be voting no simply because it’s against what the government wants, but what impact could a rejection have? The image of Ireland being a darling member state of the EU could be damaged and would send FG federalists into a tailspin.

Could this be a proto-Irexit referendum? Obviously there’s no prospect of Ireland leaving the EU but it could be a signal that the people have had enough of EU integration.

My real fear is that if the vote is defeated they will pull a Lisbon Treaty and make us vote again.

Brussels Sprout

While there will no doubt be many voters who, like the OP will vote for contrarian reasons I suspect that this will have an easier time of it than the last two did. For one it's quite difficult for the "Everything is Woke" brigade to spin something as boring as patent law in that light. It'll be helped by being on the same day as the local/Euro elections. It will also be helped by the fact that there is a tangible outcome from passing this.

The Government shouldn't be complacent though and need to actually be visible explaining what this is and why it is needed.

I honestly don't know much about this patent court so I'll wait and see what it's all about before coming to a more informed decision about how I plan to vote.

Sam Russell

Is this anything to do with the Canada trade agreement that we have not agreed to yet?

Does this give corporations the right to sue the Irish Gov for losses through trade courts? [That is non-Irish courts.]

hotmail.com

Neale Richmond admitted today there will be difficulties with this referendum after what happened last week.

First thing to do, if the government want the referendum to pass is for Neale Richmond, to stay out of the campaign altogether.

cryptocurrency

If canada is doing something, surely that is enough reason to say no. Canada is proably the worst place in the western world right now. And as for Trudeau. I hear Canada and it is already a no.

Hermy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884784#Comment_121884784

Why do you say that?

What's so bad about Canada?

Sam Russell

The main problem with the CETA - Canada EU trade agreement - is the facility it gives MNCs (Multi National Corporations) to sue states and can prevent from changing many regulations that might cost the MNCs profits.

An example might be if the Gov changed regulations re gamboling advertising that affects the National lottery (run by a Canadian Pension fund). The CETA would allow the Gov to be sued for the loss of profits.

There will have to have a referendum to ratify CETA. This is as a result of the successful Supreme Court challenge by TD Patrick Costello, Green Party.

Is the patent referendum anything to do with this CETA deal?

dublincc2

Regardless of the practicalities, it involves a further erosion of Irish sovereignty, even in something as bland as ceding decision making regarding patents to an EU court. That is all the Irish public need to know to vote No.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885518#Comment_121885518

It means Irish patents are protected in multiple countries and allows Irish innovation to be registered in Ireland rather than going elsewhere. Ireland has no desire to have a patent system independent of other countries, we're too small for it to be useful and the only losers would be the Irish who either have to spend more or lose the protection for their inventions in other EU countries.

You are reducing a contrarian position to absurdity.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885415#Comment_121885415

Except that's not been the case since 2016 when the mechanic was replaced (and indeed it was a flawed idea):

The revised CETA text confirms that the Tribunal shall only apply the agreement, in accordance with the principles of international law, when adjudicating upon claims submitted by investors. It cannot decide on matters of EU or Member State law. It can only look at EU or Member State law as a matter of fact, for example to make sure that the property rights in question are in fact held by the investor. It will therefore not interpret EU or Member States law in a manner binding on EU courts or EU governments. It also puts in black and white that determining whether a measure of a Party is legal under domestic law remains the monopoly of the Party's competent authorities.

As for the patent court; it's to make it easier to get a ruling on patent infringement without having to go to every single individual country in case of an infringement for an EU wide patent; i.e. one place for multiple countries which is already validated by 17 other EU countries with the judges from said countries. A summary of what they do is on their web page here so no, nothing to do with the CETA deal.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885518#Comment_121885518

No. That is all a certain section of the Irish public need to know to vote No.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058340381/eu-patent-court-referendum

I for one like many will be voting no simply because it’s against what the government wants

This is the stupidest reason to do anything ever.

I appreciate that large numbers of people do it, but it is beyond moronic.

And you seem to be wearing it as a badge of honour, like deliberate ignorance and obstinacy is some sort of political statement.

People like you are the reason we have Brexit, Trump and far right fascist movements gaining ground in Europe.

Cop on and grow up.

The right wing will come to realise they were never riding a wave with this referendum. It will be a hard crash for them when it passes overwhelmingly.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121888097#Comment_121888097

The parents referendum isn't a left right issue.

Whether or not a right wing wave exists will be evident from the elections taking place on the same day.

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121888097#Comment_121888097

What lack of grey cells leads you to imagine, even for a nano-second - that the so-called Right Wing (i.e. everyone who doesn't agree with you in thinking that you are the fountain of all knowledge and wisdom) will give a jennet's turd about this referendum?

As the opening comment alluded to, they will see it as another vehicle to give the government a kicking with. After all that's how they view the Irish people rejection of the wording of the last two referendums.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121888232#Comment_121888232

I'd guess on the basis that right (and left) wing parties in general tend to be populist and anti X parties (where X is what ever is the hot topic at the moment, immigration, muslims, EU, land lords, abortion rights, LGBTQ+ rights etc.) to try to become more relevant. This applies in Ireland as much as it does in France, Germany, Italy, Denmark etc. as well.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121888097#Comment_121888097

This is a pathetic cope post if ever I saw one.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121889041#Comment_121889041

Could you please translate this into English?

The right has convinced themselves that they somehow won the last referendums.

pixelburp

Anti EU movements and figures might struggle to whip up paranoia and worrying over Patent Law changes of all things; it's a fairly dry, sober topic that will have a negligible effect (as far as I can tell) on lives. I don't think we'll see dramatic posters of innocent redheaded children asking us to think of their future.

On the flip side, given it is already pertaining to law - and a very specific exacting one at that - there'll be less confusion and potential for the kind of utter semantic balls up the two referenda just gone demonstrated.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058340381/eu-patent-court-referendum

If you want to give government a kick then don't vote for any FG,FF or green candidates in the local and European elections being held on the same day.

But cop yourself on and educate yourself on this referendum, and vote with your head not your heart.

nachouser

Maybe have a look at the threads started by the op? They seem to have a singular vision of things.

Seth Brundle

Mod: If people wish to discuss the EU Patent referendum then fine, but this will not be a discussion about the right or anything else and I'll be quick to shut this thread and/or issue thread and/or forum bans.

dulpit

Why does this need to go to a referendum in the first place btw? Is there something specific in the constitution that needs amending here? Or is there just a precedent that EU things go to referendum like Lisbon/Nice etc?

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911923#Comment_121911923

According to the official detail on the bill, it requires a transfer of jurisdiction, therefore requiring approval for an amendment to the constitution:

The Agreement on a Unified Patent Court (UPCA), providing for the setting up of an International Court between contracting states, was signed in February 2013 by 25 EU Member States, including Ireland. An amendment to Article 29 of the Constitution to add the UPC Agreement as an international agreement to the Constitution would be required before Ireland could join the UPC, as it entails a transfer of jurisdiction in patent litigation from the Irish courts to an international court.

Opposition to this might be a hard sell beyond an emotive appeal towards that nebulous idea of "sovereignty" 'cos it's the driest, most abstracted constitutional amendment I've seen in a while. So it might fail only down to the public's approach that if they don't understand it, better to strike it down out of safety (which is a sensible enough approach to be fair), and can't see a particularly arresting strategic campaign to encourage people to vote Yes either.

https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/news-and-events/department-news/2024/january/referendum-on-unified-patent-court-announced-by-government.html

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911923#Comment_121911923

It's because of a supreme court ruling in 1987:

Crotty v. An Taoiseach[1] was a landmark 1987 decision of the Irish Supreme Court which found that Ireland could not ratify the Single European Act unless the Irish Constitution was first changed to permit its ratification. The case, taken by Raymond Crotty formally against the Taoiseach (then Garret FitzGerald), directly led to the Tenth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland (which authorised the ratification of the Single Act) and established that significant changes to European Union treaties required an amendment to the Irish constitution before they could be ratified by Ireland. As a consequence, Ireland, uniquely in the EU, requires a plebiscite for every new, or substantive change to a, European Union Treaty.

source

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058340381/eu-patent-court-referendum

My real fear is that if the vote is defeated they will pull a Lisbon Treaty and make us vote again.

Something that's lost on so many people is that after it's rejection The Lisbon Treaty was ammended to address the issues Ireland had with it.

Sam Russell

Could we hold a referendum that removes the implications of the SC decision to hold a referendum for every EU law change?

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912044#Comment_121912044

Well, the treaty wasn't amended. No changes were made to the Lisbon Treaty (which would have required a re-ratification by all the other EU member states). Instead, the European Council created a list of guarantees to supplement the Treaty, e.g. the guarantee on Taxation: "Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon makes any change of any kind, for any Member State, to the extent or operation of the competence of the European Union in relation to taxation". This was already true, but research after the No vote showed that Taxation was a concern for voters, so the Council explicitly guaranteed there wouldn't be any changes

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912071#Comment_121912071

Could we? I would imagine so

Would it have a chance of passing? I sincerely doubt it - people wouldn't like ceding that power to politicians

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912071#Comment_121912071

Of course. Any Irish government can decide to hold a referendum to make any changes to the Constitution. They could propose deleting the whole thing and replacing it with one single article: "Don't be a Dick".

The issue isn't holding a referendum, it's passing it, and it would have to be an insanely popular government to propose removing the people's veto on EU treaties. None of the governments we've had in the 37 years since the court's decision would have had a hope in hell in getting it passed

Brussels Sprout

Decent Explainer on what this referendum is about:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2024/0323/1439130-explainer-what-is-the-upcoming-patent-referendum-about/

Difficult to think why anyone would oppose it but I'm sure there'll still be 25% who will find a reason to do so.

.Donegal.

Any polls as to how this is looking?

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930069#Comment_121930069

I highly doubt it this far out. Most people have no idea that is even happening yet. I'd say you won't see any polls for this until May.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930048#Comment_121930048

However, the lack of publicity, or interest cos it'll be a dry, intellectual sell, means it's more likely IMO the reflexive antiEU crowd will shoot it down. Combined with the cohort where if you don't understand it, you don't vote for it.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930378#Comment_121930378

If it was a standalone election I'd agree but I think the fact that it's on the same day as the local & Euros mean that it will pass. That's because they will absorb a lot of the energy and focus from the anti-everything crowd who will no doubt have their own cohort of candidates that they'll be cheering on. It should also add to the turnout which usually helps Yes votes on dry technical issues like this.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930403#Comment_121930403

That's true. It'll get eyeballs by dint of being merged into the locals/EU, but then I might point towards the deference to rejection because it mightn't be understood by people suddenly coming across it for the first time.

I should say I've no idea how I fall down on the issue; I understand what's being asked but couldn't say how I feel about it, yet.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058340381/eu-patent-court-referendum

There’s no “Obviously” about that.

You can’t realistically maintain a position that you want to go it alone as though you are a full-on Brexiter and also that you want to be part of an organisation which is set up precisely so that its member states can work increasingly together at EU level.

The logic of your position is what happened in the U.K. where they got an opt out on this and an opt out on that and before they knew it, they had some many opt outs people couldn’t see the difference between going for the ultimate opt-out (leaving) and remaining “in” but with so many opt-outs they had all but “checked-out” long before the referendum was called.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121954903#Comment_121954903

At time time of Brexit the UK had four opt-outs and none of them were UK-specific.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121956714#Comment_121956714

Given that the four opt-outs they had (which had been five previously) were all huge opt-outs opting the U.K. out of almost all major developments of the EU since 92, they meant the U.K. was effectively in a “in but half-out” position - and as we saw it was easy for Brexiters to persuade their electorate they could have an “out but half-in” position where they’d be outside the EU with “à la carte” opt-ins to all the “nice” bits of EU.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121954903#Comment_121954903

If it's a no then I would think it is more a "punish the Government" no rather than an "I hate the EU" no 😉.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957584#Comment_121957584

All of which points to the long overdue need to change the constitution to put in place a proper mechanism to address EU Treaties when they come up so that they don’t automatically end up in a referendum.

Leaving the EU because of the latter reason would make sense, crashing out of because of the former would just be stupid but is all to possible.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957690#Comment_121957690

I would doubt it would cause a crashing out to be honest. People would remain mainly pro-EU and we would not be stopping other countries from joining the court if that is what they want.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957752#Comment_121957752

We can’t realistically claim to be “pro-EU” if we repeatedly reject EU Treaties. If that continually happens then we’d end up crashing out as continuing membership of the EU would be a political impossibility.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957787#Comment_121957787

I don't think it is a treaty in the sense of the Nice or Lisbon treaties, though that required every country including Ireland to ratify it. If it were then I might understand frustration in other countries.

My understanding is that the court is already up and running and about 17 countries have ratified it. It is a voluntary thing. There's no requirement to join as far as I'm aware therefore I would not expect animosity towards those who do not. It simply will not be of interest that some countries are not participating in this particular institution.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957510#Comment_121957510

I would put the Faragist dog-whistling as the factor that really clinched it. Talk about varying levels of EU/EEA participation only really started after the vote.

Downlinz

There's no real reason not to approve this, it cuts down on busywork for patent filers and streamlines legal cases. If for some strange reason a business doesn't want to use it they can still the old national patent system for each country too.

I just hope people will take whatever anger they have towards the government out in the appropriate manner in the two elections and we're not going to reject a clearly beneficial proposal out of spite.

ancapailldorcha

If Brexit taught us anything, it's that simplicity will triumph over complexity and nuance. I was considering a career as a patent attorney and it looks like a highly technical role. I can't think of an issue less suited to a binary referendum.

How on earth would you persuade people to go out and vote yes, exactly over some thing so dry and academic?

Furze99

I've heard a little about this, not enough to make my mind up.

Initial thoughts are

1) this will cede more power from Irish courts to an EU court

2) this is possibly more about intellectual property rights and the big interests here lie in the multi nationals. Whilst we may benefit from some of their presence, not sure we should be doing this to facilitate this part of their business.

3) the argument is made that it'll make it easier for Irish companies to protect patents but how much of a problem is there at the moment?

I don't know but kinda suspect that this proposal is not really being done for the benefit of Irish citizens and businesses but more so for big international players. And I don't care for that.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969004#Comment_121969004

Why is there always a view that there's an underhanded or sinister reason behind anything the EU does?