EU patent court referendum

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912071#Comment_121912071

Of course. Any Irish government can decide to hold a referendum to make any changes to the Constitution. They could propose deleting the whole thing and replacing it with one single article: "Don't be a Dick".

The issue isn't holding a referendum, it's passing it, and it would have to be an insanely popular government to propose removing the people's veto on EU treaties. None of the governments we've had in the 37 years since the court's decision would have had a hope in hell in getting it passed

Brussels Sprout

Decent Explainer on what this referendum is about:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2024/0323/1439130-explainer-what-is-the-upcoming-patent-referendum-about/

Difficult to think why anyone would oppose it but I'm sure there'll still be 25% who will find a reason to do so.

.Donegal.

Any polls as to how this is looking?

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930069#Comment_121930069

I highly doubt it this far out. Most people have no idea that is even happening yet. I'd say you won't see any polls for this until May.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930048#Comment_121930048

However, the lack of publicity, or interest cos it'll be a dry, intellectual sell, means it's more likely IMO the reflexive antiEU crowd will shoot it down. Combined with the cohort where if you don't understand it, you don't vote for it.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930378#Comment_121930378

If it was a standalone election I'd agree but I think the fact that it's on the same day as the local & Euros mean that it will pass. That's because they will absorb a lot of the energy and focus from the anti-everything crowd who will no doubt have their own cohort of candidates that they'll be cheering on. It should also add to the turnout which usually helps Yes votes on dry technical issues like this.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930403#Comment_121930403

That's true. It'll get eyeballs by dint of being merged into the locals/EU, but then I might point towards the deference to rejection because it mightn't be understood by people suddenly coming across it for the first time.

I should say I've no idea how I fall down on the issue; I understand what's being asked but couldn't say how I feel about it, yet.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058340381/eu-patent-court-referendum

There’s no “Obviously” about that.

You can’t realistically maintain a position that you want to go it alone as though you are a full-on Brexiter and also that you want to be part of an organisation which is set up precisely so that its member states can work increasingly together at EU level.

The logic of your position is what happened in the U.K. where they got an opt out on this and an opt out on that and before they knew it, they had some many opt outs people couldn’t see the difference between going for the ultimate opt-out (leaving) and remaining “in” but with so many opt-outs they had all but “checked-out” long before the referendum was called.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121954903#Comment_121954903

At time time of Brexit the UK had four opt-outs and none of them were UK-specific.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121956714#Comment_121956714

Given that the four opt-outs they had (which had been five previously) were all huge opt-outs opting the U.K. out of almost all major developments of the EU since 92, they meant the U.K. was effectively in a “in but half-out” position - and as we saw it was easy for Brexiters to persuade their electorate they could have an “out but half-in” position where they’d be outside the EU with “à la carte” opt-ins to all the “nice” bits of EU.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121954903#Comment_121954903

If it's a no then I would think it is more a "punish the Government" no rather than an "I hate the EU" no 😉.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957584#Comment_121957584

All of which points to the long overdue need to change the constitution to put in place a proper mechanism to address EU Treaties when they come up so that they don’t automatically end up in a referendum.

Leaving the EU because of the latter reason would make sense, crashing out of because of the former would just be stupid but is all to possible.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957690#Comment_121957690

I would doubt it would cause a crashing out to be honest. People would remain mainly pro-EU and we would not be stopping other countries from joining the court if that is what they want.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957752#Comment_121957752

We can’t realistically claim to be “pro-EU” if we repeatedly reject EU Treaties. If that continually happens then we’d end up crashing out as continuing membership of the EU would be a political impossibility.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957787#Comment_121957787

I don't think it is a treaty in the sense of the Nice or Lisbon treaties, though that required every country including Ireland to ratify it. If it were then I might understand frustration in other countries.

My understanding is that the court is already up and running and about 17 countries have ratified it. It is a voluntary thing. There's no requirement to join as far as I'm aware therefore I would not expect animosity towards those who do not. It simply will not be of interest that some countries are not participating in this particular institution.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121957510#Comment_121957510

I would put the Faragist dog-whistling as the factor that really clinched it. Talk about varying levels of EU/EEA participation only really started after the vote.

Downlinz

There's no real reason not to approve this, it cuts down on busywork for patent filers and streamlines legal cases. If for some strange reason a business doesn't want to use it they can still the old national patent system for each country too.

I just hope people will take whatever anger they have towards the government out in the appropriate manner in the two elections and we're not going to reject a clearly beneficial proposal out of spite.

ancapailldorcha

If Brexit taught us anything, it's that simplicity will triumph over complexity and nuance. I was considering a career as a patent attorney and it looks like a highly technical role. I can't think of an issue less suited to a binary referendum.

How on earth would you persuade people to go out and vote yes, exactly over some thing so dry and academic?

Furze99

I've heard a little about this, not enough to make my mind up.

Initial thoughts are

1) this will cede more power from Irish courts to an EU court

2) this is possibly more about intellectual property rights and the big interests here lie in the multi nationals. Whilst we may benefit from some of their presence, not sure we should be doing this to facilitate this part of their business.

3) the argument is made that it'll make it easier for Irish companies to protect patents but how much of a problem is there at the moment?

I don't know but kinda suspect that this proposal is not really being done for the benefit of Irish citizens and businesses but more so for big international players. And I don't care for that.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969004#Comment_121969004

Why is there always a view that there's an underhanded or sinister reason behind anything the EU does?

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969004#Comment_121969004

1. Yes, by the very nature of what it is about
2. Not really; it's about enforcement of an EU wide patent that's already been issued to stop a company from having to go to every individual country for disputes (expensive) for an EU wide patent dispute for the review and ensure consistency between countries (currently 17 countries have signed up)
3. How long is a piece of string? If a company in Poland and Hungary would infringe then the Irish company would need to dispute it in two different local courts with local lawyers compared to one court in English. How often does it happen? Stats unavailable in the first place.

This for me is a classic example of what EU should be about, simplification of enforcement of an EU wide patent and consistency in how the review is done (as it's an EU wide patent in the first place). How someone thinks this somehow diminish the Irish courts to not spend time reviewing EU wide patent infringements done in Ireland instead of dealing with more important issues is beyond my understanding honestly.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969182#Comment_121969182

Let's look at this a different way then. Who has been pushing and lobbying for this? That would be useful to know.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969582#Comment_121969582

Surely this is what the single market is all about.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969084#Comment_121969084

It's a while since we've had a referendum related to EU matters. I can't recall them all but have either voted in the affirmative on the first vote in them all or in a repeat.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't question. And we have seen the EU having a greater effect on the ordinary citizen in the last decade and a bit. From saving the German banks to nitrates directives to taking in more migrants to this duplicity of a RVM return scheme and so on.

So we need to examine these things as a public and decide what is in our best interests.

POBox19

I'll probably vote Don't Know, because this is the very first I've heard about it. Thanks to the good folks on here debating it that I'll spend some time reading up on it beforehand.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969979#Comment_121969979

I dunno, persuade me.

I do know that international intellectual property rights & patents are not the concern by and large of the ordinary citizen and I'd question how many home grown Irish businesses have a stake in this.

So is this being done for the sake of the big MNCs - the tech and medical/ pharma sectors? If so, that should be clear. That's all.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121959658#Comment_121959658

It started before the vote. A huge part of the referendum campaign (and indeed the build up it over several years) was that the U.K. could leave the EU and have a Norwegian or Swiss or Turkish style arrangement depending on what the U.K. wanted (and that the EU and/or EFTA countries would count themselves lucky to have any of the arrangements with the U.K.). It was only after the referendum vote - and May’s Mansion House speech - that Brexit started to crystallise into the “hardest of hard Brexit” option.

As an aside, I have seen one reputable journalist claim that May’s hardline Brexit speech was written by an (unelected) political adviser and she hadn’t seen it until she was handed it as she walked up to the podium, so their policy on Brexit was literally foisted upon them by a political adviser without any cabinet input whatsoever.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969582#Comment_121969582

The governments of the member states of the EU are the ones that have been pushing for it.

You don’t get any international treaty to be ratified unless each and every one of the governments concerned decide they want one and then sit down and negotiate one.

The more relevant question to ask is why - when our government agrees to an international treaty it decides that Ireland wants / needs - you would want to prevent Ireland ratifying a treaty (be it an EU one or not)?

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970024#Comment_121970024

Surely the current system would only benefit those with the deepest pockets since making court cases in multiple jurisdictions would be the least onerous on them, whereas the small Irish firm exporting a niche product might struggle to manage and pay for all of that legal work.

Let's see what the Irish Law lobby says about it. If they come out strongly against it then that's probably a good indication that the current system mostly benefits the legal industry (both here and in other countries).

Podge_irl

l

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970024#Comment_121970024

Home grown Irish businesses are the ones far less likely to have the means and resources to litigate these issues in every individual country.