EU patent court referendum

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969182#Comment_121969182

That's all well and good but EU Bad blah blah blah

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969991#Comment_121969991

The RVM is a good idea. That Irish people cant be arsed bringing a few bottles with them to the shop or using a reusable water bottle is hardly the fault of the EU

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970144#Comment_121970144

The government may be pushing for it - but who has been lobbying the government for this? Nothing like this happens without lobbying and plenty of money thrown at it. I don't know but I expect we will hear more about this. The issue is remote from the average voter but we can be quite sure it's important to some entities. But just who??

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970182#Comment_121970182

Maybe but somehow or other I suspect that Irish businesses are not by & large at the cutting edge of very valuable developments that require this enhanced IP and patent legislation. That's not to say IP and patent protections are not important to some here but how much value are in these to justify the change. Let's remember they already have such protections through the various EU individual states.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970393#Comment_121970393

IBEC have been quite vocal about their support for this

https://www.ibec.ie/connect-and-learn/media/2024/01/24/statement-on-the-unified-patent-court-referendum

And their membership seems to be very much in support of it

https://www.ibec.ie/connect-and-learn/media/2023/03/14/hold-referendum-on-the-unified-patent-court-in-november-2023-ibec-and-aptma

• Over three quarters (78%) of companies indicated that
they were likely to increase their patenting activity due to Ireland’s
participation in the Unitary Patent and the Unified Patent Court. 
• Approximately 83% small and micro enterprises said they
were very likely to increase their patenting activity on the back of the
new system. 

beachhead

Purpose of the referendum as I read it is:Patent registered in one EU state is automatically registered in all states.No need then to register an individual patent in every EU country which takes years.Rules out someone stealing your idea in Ireland and running with in greece,Germany etc wherever in EU

StormForce13

Comment deleted.

Sam Russell

I think the Collison brothers, who started Stripe, might not agree. A small, but very valuable, idea has made them very rich.

EU wide patents is the way to go. Irish patents will be as valuable as any other EU patent.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970505#Comment_121970505

No it has nothing to do with CETA

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970442#Comment_121970442

I'll keep an open mind. I did ask/ wonder who has been lobbying for this. Perhaps IBEC support but have they been leading the campaign? I get occasional phone calls from pollsters on matters like this and I could well imagine myself saying yes to such a question without really thinking about it or even needing it. It's a bit 'mom and apple pie'.

I'm sure we'll hear more in due course.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970393#Comment_121970393

I amn’t sure why you think there is “lobbying” going on.

This proposal is not a new idea. The member states previously made an effort to have a single ECs wide system back in the 70s and 80s. It failed at the ratification stage due to political inertia and/or vested interests.

The idea was revived in the early 00s and eventually negotiations were started on it. That resulted in an treaty which was finalised and signed on Feb 19 2013. The treaty did not require every member state to ratify it for it to enter into operation.

The criteria for it being put into operation has already been met and it is already in operation since Jun 1 last year.

So the political argument about this is already over as it’s a fait accompli at EU level and in operation.

Ireland is now trying to “catch up” with the member states that have already completed ratification of it.

As in every treaty related referendum, we are not being asked to debate the nitty gritty of the treaty (which in particular is pointless in this case). Rather we are being asked to give explicit permission to the Oireachtas to ratify it should the Oireachtas choose to do so (and the Oireachtas remains free to reject doing so even if 100% of the electorate vote yes in the referendum).

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970678#Comment_121970678

Your first post does not imply an open mind on the topic as you are solely looking for (and failing to find) the negative aspects.

From an Irish citizen aspect, this would make the patent process here worth it as it would be enforced EU wide or completely worthless as companies won't bother with small markets like Ireland and innovators will be driven out of the country to protect their ideas.

There might be some convoluted positives that people can come up with, but it seems to be stretching (guessing it will be mostly the brexit-y/anti-EU types that will be arguing this).

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972024#Comment_121972024

There's always lobbying going on in the background, always. A constitutional change requiring a referendum is a matter of no small cost, risk and bother in Ireland. If there wasn't lobbying for this and pressure being applied, no government here would be bothered with the cost, risk and bother.

We know that MNCs represented in both tech and pharma are significant in terms of the public finances at the moment. These are exactly the entities that are increasingly concerned in a modern world with IP and patents etc. So if the case, it may be wise to facilitate these MNCs. But the public should be clearly informed if this is the case and that the demand/ lobbying push is coming from this area.

I want to know what and for whom I'm voting on something for. And presumably many others as well. Not much to ask?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972952#Comment_121972952

It sounds like you're trying to spread some sort of conspiracy narrative as opposed to educating yourself. If this referendum is to satisfy corporate interests as you claim, can you prove this?

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972952#Comment_121972952

You are looking for shadows and sinister machinations where there are none, the change to the constitution literally is to simply allow the Government to ratify the agreement on a unified Patent Court as it entails a transfer of jurisdiction in patent litigation from the Irish courts to an international court.

You say you want to know what you are voting on yet every comment on it thus far shows you have done absolutely no research or investigations on this yourself bar come up with your own conspiracy theories based on absolutely nothing.

Its obvious you haven't even read the wording on it.

11° The State may ratify the Agreement on a Unified Patent Court done at
Brussels on the 19th day of February 2013. No provision of this
Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by
the State that are necessitated by the obligations of the State under
that Agreement or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted
by bodies competent under that Agreement from having the force of law in
the State.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972985#Comment_121972985

I've said I haven't made up my mind and will follow any debate with interest.

It is perfectly reasonable to ask just why we conducting this referendum and at who's behest. Who are the primary beneficiaries if it passes. This is baby stuff.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973427#Comment_121973427

If you truly wanted to know, you'd google it and do some work on the topic. Instead, you're pushing a conspiracy narrative. The difference is clear.

To me, it looks like a technical adjustment to deepen the single market which makes sense. A referendum is only needed because of Ireland's constitutional setup.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973464#Comment_121973464

Hmm….. I've heard a couple of interviews concerning it and will follow future debate with interest. Why do you just assume that I am pushing some conspiracy narrative. That I believe is the sort of argument used to try and shut down conversation?

We are often reminded that there are many matters in the constitution that could do with change but since they aren't a priority or causing a major problem, are just left as is due to the nature of referendums. So it is perfectly reasonable to question why this particular proposal for change is being run. We are in a democracy I believe and my view & vote is as good as yours or anyone elses.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973514#Comment_121973514

Again, no details on the shadowy organisations are allegedly pushing this referendum. I think it's best to leave it at that.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973427#Comment_121973427

We are conducting it because a Supreme Court judgement in Ireland ruled that we have to.

We are doing it at the Government's behest because they would like to join the incredibly sensible EU wide patent system to simplify and streamline the ability of Irish companies and companies based in Ireland to be able to have EU wide patents enforced.

There you go, those are your answers.

StrawbsM

I’ll be voting yes to this based on what I have read so far. I’ll never have any reason to be seeking a patent but looking at the bigger picture, a patent law across all countries is really what EU membership should be about.

With regards to the local and European elections, I will be voting against the current crop we have. I’ve a suspicion that there will be many protest voters that may have never been inside a polling booth before but will do so in June. More than likely they would vote No in the referendum for no other reason than to give two fingers to the government.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973570#Comment_121973570

"We are conducting it because a Supreme Court judgement in Ireland ruled that we have to."

Now yer talking - thank you. Do you know who took a case to the Supreme Court that resulted in this judgement?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974048#Comment_121974048

Who cares and why does it matter?

It was decades ago and nothing to do with this particular issue.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974108#Comment_121974108

Well clearly it does matter, if as you say "We are conducting it because a Supreme Court judgement in Ireland ruled that we have to". This case must have some compelling relevance? And therefore we should care about it.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974152#Comment_121974152

The Supreme court judgement was not on this case.

This is very basic information that has already been provided to you.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974152#Comment_121974152

Yes if we want to implement the EU wide patent system we would need a constitutional amendment, how are you still not getting this? Not everything is a conspiracy theory.

The Supreme court has nothing to do with this.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974178#Comment_121974178

Ah look, you have us totally confused now! You wrote

"We are conducting it because a Supreme Court judgement in Ireland ruled that we have to.

We are doing it at the Government's behest because they would like to join the incredibly sensible EU wide patent system to simplify and streamline the ability of Irish companies and companies based in Ireland to be able to have EU wide patents enforced."

Now you advise that "The Supreme court judgement was not on this case."

Which is it?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974197#Comment_121974197

You wrote "Yes they ruled if we want to implement the EU wide patent system we would need a constitutional amendment, how are you still not getting this? Not everything is a conspiracy theory."

No conspiracy theory here!! Just basic questions as to why we are conducting an expensive referendum on this matter, which has been noted is of minimal if any relevance to the ordinary public.

Podge says there was a case and that's why we're having. You initially wrote 'Yes they ruled if we want to implement the EU wide patent system we would need a constitutional amendment'.

So it looks like there was a Supreme Court case and there was some relevant ruling?? But Supreme Court cases don't just happen of their own accord, who took and why. Was it our President or the AG or a commercial entity?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974205#Comment_121974205

It was the Crotty case in the 80s. You can read the judgement here.

https://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IESC/1987/4.html

This judgement requires that essentially any EU treaty that involves any change in our relationship with the EU or transfer of any autonomy needs a referendum. Frankly I think it was a stupid judgement, but it exists.

VinLieger

JFC this is absurd please can a mod step in and stop this posters nonsense? Already reported several of their obviously bad faith argument posts and nothings happened

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974272#Comment_121974272

Thank you. Now I recall Mr.Crotty alright, a thorny individual. Like Ms.McKenna, an upholder of basic standards and keeping the authorities in line, even if the consequences are sometimes awkward.

So this is why legally we are required to have a referendum rather than the government just passing it. Still leaves me wondering why the government considers to be an important matter that requires the political risk of a referendum. I'm sure this will become clearer in the coming weeks.