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The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V3

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,133 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    After giving up so many picks to get Wilson, now these ... where will Denver get better players from?

    Payton will have to work wonders with what he has?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,934 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    The big question mark is Wilson. There's gotta be a suspicion that Pete Carroll's offense made him look better than he actually is given what's transpired. You've got Wilson looking awful and Geno Smith who always looked awful now looking like a great QB.

    If Payton can't get Wilson back to where he was in Seattle they are in big trouble for the foreseeable future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,133 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Yeah, that's a strong possibility.

    And as this is a banter thread, I'll add Pete Carroll could probably win a game with Josh Johnson as QB :)

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭cosatron


    TB12 has retired again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,902 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,044 ✭✭✭Ohmeha


    Yes Payton will have to work wonders whether he will is another story, but he is one of few coaches who will give Denver a chance to get back into the play-offs



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,427 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    Or else it'll be like the Patriots and we realise the HOF QB had an awful lot to do with making Saints competitive for all those years



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,934 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    How would that even be in doubt? When you have a QB of the level of Brees it's pretty clear he had a lot to do with the impressive numbers the offense put up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,767 ✭✭✭Mr. Guappa


    It's actually the 2023 1st, plus a 2024 2nd, but Denver get a 2024 3rd back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,427 ✭✭✭Shedite27




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,934 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Aaron Rodgers is at Pebble Beach for the golf and he said this....

    “I'm just going to say that the predominant team that we hear as we're walking is Raiders. A lot of Raider fans are encouraging me, a lot of 'Davante misses you' comments. We're having some fun with it”



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭cosatron


    Unfortunately the Aaron Rodgers annual soap drama continues in earnest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭franglan


    He's currently spending 4 days in a room with no light or external stimuli and hoping to gain enlightenment on his next career move. Yep. I genuinely hope he's taking the piss with this type of thing and laughing at reporters reporting this tripe but from previous ~opinions I'm not convinced.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,934 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I think the whole thing is just so like what happened with Brett Favre. A first round pick has been sitting on the bench in Green Bay for the same length of time.

    If he goes to the Jets that'll be insane. Imagine if he went there for a year and then signs with the Vikings just like Favre did.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,427 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    I saw that and had to check a few times if it was a parody news story



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,863 ✭✭✭hynesie08




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭franglan


    From the man himself he can wear adult dippers or there's a small toilet. No nightlight. Back to reality or lack there of as a Jets fan give me Carr over Rodgers unless we give little for Rodgers, he could be gone in a year if he arrives at all. Carr is in his prime, controversial opinion but I think there's an element that he doesn't get love around the league because of his older brother being a draft bust and the organisation he's being with for his career to date. You get more shots with a capable QB over say a 4 or 5 year contract rather than Rodgers. A playoff berth next year keeps Joe Douglas and particularly Bobbie Salah in a job to build on year 4.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,863 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    Carr should have a ring already if he didn't break his leg in 2016, if the jets can get him for a fair price, and trade for a proven WR1 to work alongside Wilson, and draft a couple of decent o liners, I could see them in the playoffs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭franglan


    Playoffs...Playoffs... They could win it all🙂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,213 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    So with Vince Wilfork not making the hall this year I'm legit pissed



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,902 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    Same with Hester, who should have been first ballot anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Disappointed Willis didn't make it too.

    Really hate NFL awards. So incredibly subjective and yet they put so much importance on them. You don't see the same elsewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,012 ✭✭✭BizzyC


    I'd be surprised if Willis got in tbf. Undoubtedly he was a HOF talent, but he retired early without winning anything.

    Himself and Luke Keuchly will go down as the 2 best inside linebackers of the last 10 years, but both will struggle to get a jacket due to shorter careers and a lack of rings.

    Zach Thomas as taken a looong time to get in, he's 5th all time in career tackles.


    Wilfork deserved a nod too, but looking at the list of who got in it's hard to say who should have been left out in his place. I'm sure he'll get in in the near future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,934 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Big Vince will get in by year five, I'm fully with you on Willis and Kuechly. They retired too young and they'll be punished for that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    People should not under-estimate how bad Hackett was as a HC - he was probably top 5 worst ever. Jerry Rosburg showed what an adult in the job can do in two games. When he took over after Hackett was fired one of the first things that he did was fire Butch Barry - the OL coach - when Rosburg announced it at a team meeting then entire roster cheered. In those last two games Wilson actually looked a decent QB.

    One thing that is clear from the season is that Wilson is not a pocket QB, no matter how much he wants to 'cook' - he needs a strong running game and a good OL to be effective. The Broncos were down to fourth-string players along the OL by the end of the season.

    Payton is noted as a coach who builds O lines - that is his forte - and he is capable of designing an offence that maximises Wilson's skillset and will minimise his weaknesses. I do think that Wilson is capable of being a top ten QB under Payton. If it turns out that he has fallen off a cliff then the Broncos will dump him after next season.

    A much bigger concern is who Payton will have as his DC. Evero should have stayed in Denver - he had a winning defence to work with and would have been a hot HC prospect after next season. Instead he behaved like a petulant child, blowing interviews by defending Hackett. Denver does seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel by interviewing Vance Joseph. Rex Ryan is apparently the front-runner - the big question if he gets the job is not his ability as a DC (he was one of the best ever) - but whether the game has passed him by in the 7 years he has been out of coaching. Messing up the DC hire could undermine everything that Payton is capable of doing with the offence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Bit harsh on Evero. He is understandably loyal to Hackett given their history.

    Denver DC role isn't really an attractive spot for Evero to stay or a new hire. As you said, the defense is good and performed well last year so any step back by them will be all blamed on the DC, while any improvement to the team at all will go to Payton. Over all Payton's years he hasn't been one to really develop too many successful HCs under him, which again doesnt make him a draw.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,934 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    The Franchise tag pay for this year.

    I can see the Giants and Raiders tagging Barkley and Jacobs at that money. Tight end and safety pretty friendly too. No issue at QB either.

    Quarterback

    $32,416,000

    Linebacker

    $20,926,000

    Wide receiver

    $19,743,000

    Defensive end

    $19,727,000

    Defensive tackle

    $18,937,000

    Cornerback

    $18,140,000

    Offensive line

    $18,244,000

    Safety

    $14,460,000

    Tight end

    $11,435,000

    Running back

    $10,091,000

    Kicker/punter

    $5,393,000



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    There is loyalty to Hackett and then there is stupidity - by most reports Evero bombed the HC interviews because of his defence of Hackett. When ask to stay by the Broncos he reacted like a petulant child. He will have to get over that stuff if he ever wants to be a HC.

    Evero could have stayed and shown that what he did last year wasn't a one-hit-wonder - putting him in a prime position for a HC job after next season. he is basically starting over again in Carolina. If that defence takes a step back from what Wilks did with it (and Carolina wanted Wilks to stay) then that will have a bigger negative impact on Evero. By the way - all the credit for the defence should not go to Evero - Dom Capers and Bill Kollar had a major input into what was happening last season.

    You are right - Payton has not fostered much in the way of a coaching tree - Payton is a product of the Bill Parcells school. There are two reasons for this - 1. few of the Parcells school have produced down the line coaches (BB is the prime example of how poorly his offspring have performed) - 2. more importantly for Payton, he had relatively little turnover of coaching staff during his time in New Orleans. Despite this some HCs have come out of his staff - Doug Marrone - Denis Allen (who I think is a good coach) - Dan Campbell, who looks like he could be a really good HC.

    Payton will rise or fall with the decision on the DC - mess that up and no matter how good Payton does on offence, the Broncos will struggle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭Blut2


    $10mn for RB tag is a good price. If the Giants are smart they'll tag Barkley and give him a big year this year then let him go. Giving a massive contract to an injury prone RB as hes hitting his late 20s is surely at this stage accepted to be a bad idea.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,934 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Derek Carr signs with the Saints, apparently 4 years $150 million. No idea how much is guaranteed, one site reporting $60 million.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,427 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    If I'm a GM, I'd never do these type of deals. Do they every work out? Middling Veterans going to another team?

    Just keep shooting in the draft until you get your Allen/Mahomes/Lamar etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,934 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    How long do you think a coach will keep his job in that situation?

    Carr is a significant upgrade on what they've had the last two years. He's been above average his whole career despite being on some awful teams. He's made some receivers look better than they've shown when they left the Raiders. Players like Amari Cooper, Nelson Agholor, Jared Cook and Michael Crabtree never performed to the same level after leaving the Raiders.

    Give him a good offensive line and he'll do damage.

    Carr is a good leader too. He's been asked about his OL many times over the years and he's always backed them or blamed himself when they've been poor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,427 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    Yeah I understand it from the coach's position, that's why I said "If I'm a GM...."

    I guess it comes down to what the drive is, if it's just keep a job and have an income for 3/4 years you can understand it, most coaches aren't keeping their jobs more than 3/4 years anyway with 8-8 records and a veteran QB acquired via trade like Goff, Ryan, Carr, Cousins, Tannehill, Wentz. I think to build something special you need to take a shot with a Ridder, Malik, Zach Wilson, Fields and hope it works out.

    I'm not sure Carr gets that New Orleans team any more wins than the 7 they got last year with Winston/Dalton. I certainly don't think they're contenders. Why not take a shot with a young guy, if it fails, you've a top 5/10 pick in 2024 draft to build something big



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,934 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Well I think he's a lot better than Goff, Tannehill and Cousins. Putting Wentz in that category is ridiculous. Ryan is an old guy, he looked done while still in Atlanta.

    You have to remember that Carr has been with a Raiders team which has been awful for most of his time there.

    If you remember the season he had a pretty decent roster he got injured when he was one of the favourites for MVP.

    That season he got injured early in the second last game of the season and the Raiders fell apart as soon as he went down which shows how valuable he was.

    Carr is 31 now, he's got plenty of football left in him. If the Raiders can protect him I think we'll see big things from him. He's got the receivers in Olave, Shaheed and Thomas, if he can stay healthy. He's also got Kamara out of the backfield.

    He's also got a coach he's worked with before.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,427 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    I'm not putting him in the same category now, I mean Indy giving up a 1st rounder for Wentz as a veteran, Washington giving up a 2nd+3rd for Wentz as a veteran, Indy giving up a 3rd for Ryan as a veteran. Point is they rarely work out for those mid-level guys.


    I like Saints, and they've a very soft division, but Kamara's getting suspended, Thomas will inevitably be injured, Juwan Johnston is leaving in FA, not convinced they're getting to the playoffs with Olave, Shaheed and Adam Trautman. I'd be very surprised if he passes last years 7 wins



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Agree - as a GM that is where you should be aiming for. If you dont have an at least close to elite QB you're spending every year hoping and praying that everything falls perfectly for you to be a contender - FA, draft, trades, injuries, form etc.

    Even from a coach perspective, where does being mid-tier get you? Nearly all their contracts are guaranteed at signing so they dont have much to lose, as if they get fired not matter if they play it safe or be aggressive get to walk straight into another HC jobs.

    I'm not surprised NO went for Carr though, they've been deluded for a few seasons about their team and they're dragging out a very much needed rebuild. I'm sure they think they're just a mid-tier QB away despite being significantly over the cap before signing Carr or anyone else in FA.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    The level of collusion regarding Lamar is incredible already.

    All these teams dying for a decent QB refusing to even speak a 26 year old former MVP who is available for just 2 firsts.

    Really setting that marker that owners do not want to get into anything close to a fully guaranteed contract (unless you're the Browns and really want a deviant).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,934 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    What's the world coming to? Daniel Jones four years $160 million with $82 guaranteed and $35 million more in incentives. That's insane imo, he's worth about half that.

    Barkley franchise tagged after they got that deal signed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭Blut2


    The problem isn't the two firsts trade price for Jackson. Its the fact hes insisting on a contract in excess of $230mn, *fully guaranteed*. And that as a QB that relies on his legs and is entering his 6th season in the NFL already - so one whos a very risky bet for all that guaranteed money.

    It doesn't require collusion for most GMs to see that as a bad deal. Just common sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,934 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    And especially a guy whose played 12 games in each of the last two seasons.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,898 ✭✭✭✭Xavi6


    The Jones deal makes the Mahomes contract look like even better business.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,427 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    Man, if I see Daniel Jones is costing your team $40m a year, I'd bite your hands off for 5 years of Jackson at $50m a year. Kyler has $38 of $46m guaranteed, that's 83% guaranteed. If all it takes is another $8m guaranteed to get Lamar, that's market value.

    The alternative isn't just "pay someone less", it's playoff versus missing the playoff.

    This is 100% collusion by the owners.

    I think they should have left Jones walk personally, but form a business perspective...

    • Only $82m is guaranteed, so if they need to replace him at some point, it's not excessive.
    • Salary Cap has gone up 24% in 2 years, so $40m a year now is about the same hit to a team as $32m 2 years ago. In 2021 that's what Goff, Cousins, Wentz got, seems about his level.
    • This was the type of deal everyone preferred when they redid the rookie contracts way back when. In the past someone like Jones would have earned a packed by year 4. He's "only" earned about $6m a year to this point of his career. In the past he'd have earned double that by now, this is the way the owners wanted it




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,064 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Mahomes knows he has more endorsements but also he can look at what Kansas has done for him. He started off with Reid, Hill and Kelce which made a massive difference to his development. Not that he isn't great by himself but Kansas have really put in the effort to get the most out of him. I think that earned them a hometown discount. A lot of teams seem less interested in winning and would nearly be more interested in Mahomes for his star power as opposed to playing ability. I think Mahomes knows this and is happy where he is, remember he has stated he called up the Chiefs because he was worried the Texans would take him.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    I've no problem with teams negotiating with him and deciding not to meet his demands but all these QB needy teams leaking immediately that they aren't interested in even talking to him stinks that they all spoke beforehand and agreed to take this approach.

    Even the Ravens choosing to take the risk of this type of tag is fishy when the first few hours just happen to fall perfectly for them. If you were to write a script to scare players away from pushing for a highly guaranteed contract it is what is happening with Lamar.

    Shedite27 covered my thoughts on other QB options that show going to what Lamar wants isnt a stretch. The other one is Watson, even taking the Browns going rouge out of it - there were other teams who were willing to offer more draft capital and give huge guarantees for a player with all that baggage, bans hanging over him, and time already out of the league. Some of those teams are now leaking they won't even speak with Lamar, who has significantly fewer red flags.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    It isn't as if Mahomes is a martyr either - barring catastrophic Alex Smith like injury he basically guaranteed a contract for half a billion dollars by the time he is 36. It is basically a rolling 3 year guaranteed contract which means even in a terrible situation he's set up for generational wealth. For example if he got a horrific injury in OTAs next Friday and was never going to be the same player again he is guaranteed ~$120m from the Chiefs, and if he had a similar horrific injury two offseasons from now the Chief's would owe him even more than that that in guarantees (~$140m).

    Chiefs have also shown they'll renegotiate contracts of their stars and I'm sure there is a handshake agreement that if the cap continues to skyrocket that they'll redo his deal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,934 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Mahomes is awesome but it'll be interesting to see how he does without Orlando Brown protecting his blind side next season.

    I don't think there's any chance he stays in Kansas now, he'll get offered a lot more money elsewhere.

    Texans and Falcons are likely looking at new QBs whether that's through the draft or signing an FA and I'm sure they'd love to protect him and with their cap space they can well afford to.

    There's talk about the Bears moving on from Fields which I think is a year too early but again if they do then they can easily afford to pay Brown big money.

    Brown is worth the money in my opinion. I'd love to see him in New England.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭Blut2


    If a friend of mine decided to jump off a cliff and he got terribly injured, and myself and his 31 other friends all decided not to do likewise is that conspiratorial collusion? Or is it us seeing a terrible decision and deciding "nope, thats not for me".

    The idea that 31 NFL owners are all acting in collusion is a huge leap of faith when its far more likely they're just acting rationally. Lets look at the key points:

    • Jackson is a run dependent QB, entering his 6th season in the NFL, whos missed significant chunks of the last two seasons to injury
    • Jackson thinks so highly of himself that he refuses to get an agent, and is instead negotiating on his own behalf. Which would suggest (and is apparently the case) that hes not going to negotiate realistically
    • The Watson contract is objectively terrible value for the Browns and Jackson is on the record as saying he expects an even higher (massive) amount of guaranteed money

    Its completely logical for the Ravens to have told Jackson to go out and see what he can get on the open market because they know the lack of demand will soften his cough and make his demands more reasonable. And its completely logical for other teams to not want anything to do with him given the above factors.

    Jackson has far worse red flags in terms of ego/attitude, and in terms of likely injuries/age impacting his play style, than Watson had. Both which are of far more relevance to NFL team management than sexual assault claims, unfortunately.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    That is simply a stupid comparison, there is no upside to jumping off a cliff, however there is clearly significant upside in signing Lamar or the Ravens would be letting him walk.

    I agree it is completely logical for some teams to not want anything to do with Lamar, it however is far, far from 'rational' for practically all the QB needy teams to refuse to even speak to Lamar and hear directly what he is looking for and that they all also completely coincidentally leaked this news simultaneously to different journalists. This isn't even a situation where Lamar's agent could have been discussing things behind the scenes with teams for weeks, they're all coincidentally flat out refusing to try to speak a 26 year old former MVP who can be got at a draft capital discount.

    Thanks for using the term 'because they know' regarding why the Ravens made their move - I fully agree and it is my whole point. If they believe Lamar is their future, enough to be working hard to keep him and offer him the huge deal they did, then why would they risk him getting away on a huge discount unless they 'knew' what all the other teams were thinking. It only takes one team for them to lose their star asset for cheap but they 'knew' what was going to happen due to collusion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭Blut2


    Theres plenty of upside to jumping off a cliff too - lots of people do it every day into the sea.

    As far as I'm aware its only a handful of teams who've announced theyre not interested in Lamar, not practically all of the teams in the NFL. Which, again, is perfectly rational give his circumstances, and his apparently incredibly hard to meet demands.

    The Ravens 'know' other teams likely won't be interested because they know how outlandish Jackson's demands are after dealing with them for months, and how difficult hes apparently being to negotiate with.

    Its slightly hilarious to think that all 31 other NFL teams are engaged in a grand conspiracy against him based on zero evidence of that. Occam's razor would suggest its actually down to that hes a high risk, injury prone, high ego athlete demanding the most expensively guaranteed contract ever in the history of the sport, and insisting on negotiations entirely through him and not an agent. Which is a combination that results in teams not being interested until his expectations are dampened. Because we actually have ample evidence of all of that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,934 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Lamar is looking for a fully guaranteed contract. He's missed a chunk of games the last two seasons. There's a higher likelihood that his career could end at any time than most QBs in the league.

    I'm sure a lot of teams would be in for him and give him the money he's looking for but not the guaranteed money.

    As it stands the Ravens think they are in the best position but if he decides he's not going to play for them then it all changes. I don't think there's any chance he'll play for $32.4 million.

    Teams know there's a better deal to be had in a few months. Why give up two first rounders when you'll get him for less later on. And he'll back off the guaranteed money as well because there's no offers now.

    I do think he's personally decided he's not staying in Baltimore by now. I think he has too much pride to let it look like they beat him.



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