M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

xckjoo · 20-10-2022 1:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770112#Comment_119770112

We are bypassed. M17+M18. This is a ring road proposal. There's no major settlements further West of Galway so no need for a East-West bypass

brianc89 · 20-10-2022 1:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119769340#Comment_119769340

Fantastic comparison. Not open to x, y or z, not even for a second.

Ghent:

Screenshot_2022-10-20-14-04-15-67_3d9111e2d3171bf4882369f490c087b4.jpg

Galway:

Screenshot_2022-10-20-14-05-12-04_3d9111e2d3171bf4882369f490c087b4.jpg

brianc89 · 20-10-2022 1:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770236#Comment_119770236

Population of Galway city: 83,456

Population of Galway county: 276,451

Population excl. city: 192,996

But yeah no one lives in East or West Galway. Maybe that 192k live underground with the mole people and move around using an advanced system of tunnels.

xckjoo · 20-10-2022 2:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770368#Comment_119770368

Never said that nobody lives outside the city. I said there's no major population centre to the west of the city so a bypass serves no purpose. There isn't a bypass being proposed and never has been. Someone will come along in a minute to remind us of the percentage of trips that start and end outside the city that would necessitate a bypass.

Based on how badly you interpreted my post I'm not convinced you're posting in good faith so will leave it there.

brianc89 · 20-10-2022 2:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770650#Comment_119770650

Okay but this goes to the very heart of the broader argument. Galway is a sprawling county - it's the WORST example in Ireland.

No big towns, mostly one off housing, and people absolutely dependent on cars. PT solutions within Galway City don't help these people with day to day living.

WAY MORE people should be commuting sustainably, no question. But if we continue to ignore the sprawled nature of county and compare to Ghent, then we're just going to keep arguing and go nowhere.

xckjoo · 20-10-2022 2:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770716#Comment_119770716

That's one of the main problems with the proposed ring road; it'll encourage more sprawl and one-off housing. Build transport hubs and the housing will naturally gravitate towards it.

20-10-2022 3:09pm

Seems like due to the recent quashing of the planning permission for the ring road, the Galway Advertiser has decided to run a number of transport related articles in this weeks edition

First up, Cllr Ollie Crowe almost getting it, but still maintaining the "let us build this then everything else will be fixed" without anything to back it up

"Those who oppose the ring road on ideological grounds fail to recognise that the ring road will enable much of what they wish to advance, by taking cars out of the city, there will be far more scope to promote bus lanes and cycle lanes."

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/132207/a-bus-stuck-in-a-traffic-is-no-better-than-a-car-says-ollie-crowe-after-ring-road-setback

Then we have IBEC, repeating the same mantra, yet everything they are referring to from the GTS is due for implementation ahead of the GCRR anyway so the GCRR has no bearing.

“The ring road will support improved mobility in the city. It will tackle the city’s congestion challenges by reducing the number of cars in the city, creating a city centre more conducive to walking and cycling, and more efficient for cross-city public transport journeys."

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/132206/decision-on-gcrr-a-major-setback-ibec

Next up we have the well known Ind TD (well known for his racist rants) Noel "I'm not a racist" Grealish who doesn't seem to understand the purpose of the ring road as it will not do anything of the sort that he is claiming. Well, to be fair, it might for like 15-20 months and thats about it

“Galway is suffering extreme congestion in the city centre and increased journey times, as I have experienced myself. The ring road has the potential to reroute traffic from the city and alleviate capacity constraints.”

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/132186/grealish-tells-dil-that-never-ending-ring-road-saga-shows-need-for-planning-laws-change

The ever motoring Sean Kyne gets his tupence in with the same claim that the GCRR is needed to make the city a better place. The last 3 words of this quote pretty much kill his whole argument as there has always been too many on the council claiming AT/PT measures are not feasible.

"It will make the inner core of our city more liveable and more able to accommodate the public transport measures in the strategy and future plans. The GCRR provides the space in the existing road network for more bus lanes, cycling and pedestrian projects and light rail, if deemed feasible."

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/132173/ring-road-an-integral-part-of-the-solution-to-get-galway-moving-again

On the other side of the coin we see Sen Pauline Reilly calling out populist politicians for their dishonesty

"I believe too many politicians have been using it for their own election platforms, instead of being honest with us all in Galway. The Ring Road was never going to solve the traffic problems. It was only ever going to lock us in to more car dependency."

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/132174/road-decision-ensures-better-future-for-our-children

Then you have an article about parents who have given up waiting and instead are having to create a protection detail, aka cycle bus, to allow their children to travel to school without fear of injury or death

Parents were concerned that the lack of segregated cycleways made it unsafe for children cycling to school. They decided that, until such infrastructure is in place, a cyclebus could provide protection for children and families who wish to cycle. The cyclebus operates like a moving cycle lane, with the children protected by a row of adults cycling on the outside.

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/132137/pedal-power-parents-form-school-cyclebus-for-salthill

Lastly, for the 2 time in as many months, we see another Doctor getting "doored". Again another lucky escape, but how long until we see someone killed. Its only a matter of time

Dr Vinny Griffith, was cycling back home from University College Hospital Galway (UCHG ) on the evening of Wednesday, September 28, when he was “doored” by a parked car.

This is the second time a healthcare worker has been “doored” on the streets of Galway while on their way home from work in the last few months. Dooring, a term which is used to describe the action of when a car door is opened into the path of an oncoming cyclist, and can cause extensive injuries to the cyclist.

In August, Dr Ciara Curran was cycling along The Prom in Salthill, when she was doored by a parked car. The “dooring” resulted in her handlebars being knocked which sent her flying off her bike and onto the next lane, where oncoming traffic was approaching, Dr Curran, a “seasoned cyclist” said on Galway Bay FM show, Galway Talks, that she was “lucky to be alive”.

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/132196/doored-doctor-calls-for-better-cycling-infrastructure

I'll let ye draw your own conclusions

Seth Brundle · 20-10-2022 3:42pm

Given @[Deleted User] mentioned the profound wisdom of Cllr Ollie Crowe, architect Ciarán Ferrie disected his article's last paragraph (which DaCor has repeated above), this one tweet from Ferrie is a good representation of how Galway got to where it is now...

https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1583002885415395328?s=20&t=djG_Y4OUtkhwYGwFpWXYCg

I also saw this old skit in a response to his tweet - it seems quite apt...

https://twitter.com/LiorSteinberg/status/1536221889206669313

For those unfamiliar, I give you the death metal band Jevons paradox!

20-10-2022 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119771229#Comment_119771229

That clip is from a much longer bit (5 mins). Its honestly quite funny regardless of your stance on the GCRR

https://youtu.be/pCzCJzwrB_c

brianc89 · 20-10-2022 5:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770823#Comment_119770823

You can't develop denser towns without a baseline road network to get materials, lorries, cranes, (wo)men in white vans in to actually build anything.

What's your suggestion?? Ban one off housing (fine, I agree), but then what??? Everyone needs to start praying that apartments grow out of the ground? It rains enough in Galway, maybe a fungus will evolve into high rise buildings which answers our prayers.

KrisW1001 · 20-10-2022 5:45pm

A new low.

Do we have a way of muting or hiding a thread on Boards?

Unrealistic · 20-10-2022 6:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119771667#Comment_119771667

The road network we already have didn't prevent Bonham Quay being built and the tall cranes currently in the University grounds seem to kept very busy. We also manage to get wind turbines through the city and out to Connemara using the current road network.

While there may be some reasons for a ring road that have some validity the idea that construction in the city is impossible without it is farcical.

Juran · 20-10-2022 6:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770236#Comment_119770236

No major settlements west of Galway ?

West of Galway is: Largest gaeltacht in the country which almost doubles in the summer with gaelgoirí, one of the key fishing ports and ferry port to Aran, (and planned to be the main Galway commercial port), Connemara south (Spiddal, Cois fharraige, Ros a Mhíl, Casla, Cararoe, Na hOiléain, Rosmuc, Carna), Connemara north (Clifden, Roundstone, Ballyconneely), Fubro/Barna, Knocknacarra & Sathill.

<snip> Mod: Do not attack the poster.

Unrealistic · 20-10-2022 6:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119771799#Comment_119771799

Saying there are no major settlements west of Galway is not the same thing as saying no one lives west of Galway. Like it or not the main settlements are all in the part of the county that is east of the city.

Juran · 20-10-2022 7:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119771877#Comment_119771877

I don't disagree with your figures.

Tell me, how many tourists visit Gort, Oranmore, Tuam and Loughrea every year ?

This is the difference between East and West Galway.

brianc89 · 20-10-2022 7:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119771877#Comment_119771877

This is HILARIOUS.

All the towns you list have motorway bypasses or a ring road. LOL

I'm estimating (so please correct me), but I estimate the following populations:

Galway city: 74k

Galway West (excl. City): 75k

Galway East: 117k

The one off housing across the county is appalling, particularly bad in Galway West. Improving road infrastructure won't lead to more one off housing if you ban one off housing, which GCC basically have?.....

20-10-2022 8:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119772132#Comment_119772132

You are overestimating the population west of the city.

When you say Galway West do you mean the Dáil constituency?

If so that number includes well populated areas such as Clarinbridge, Oranmore, Claregalway and Annaghdown.

The city was a double decker short of 80k in the 2016 census.

CruelSummer · 20-10-2022 8:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119770148#Comment_119770148

Nothing personal meant, apologies if it appears that’ way. I am demonstrating that many posters on this thread who are vehemently against the road are not affected by the outcomes as they’re not commuting or living in Galway. Many of the posters also appear completely anti any roads being constructed and totally anti car.

brianc89 · 20-10-2022 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119772240#Comment_119772240

Okay thanks for that. It was difficult to get this info, so yes I used constituency data (from 2011 before GE split with Roscommon).

It would be nice to see population separation East and West of the Corrib, if anyone can help ....

By the way, the articles linked above are farcical. I mean seriously - the lack of PT investment has resulted in traffic congestion but this is what they think......

......He said that Galway has been a victim of its own success as industrial growth has resulted in traffic congestion.

Seth Brundle · 20-10-2022 8:44pm

Many of the posters also appear completely anti any roads being constructed and totally anti car.

Whilst neither of those would reflect my views, people having an opinion different to yours does not mean that their opinion is any less valid than yours assuming that it is based on the facts and the evidence. Plus, as taxpayers they have a fiscal interest in whether or not the road is built! One could also argue that were the road to go ahead then the air quality in Galway will deteriorate (as per the TII/councils own studies) which has an effect on the health of all of us.

20-10-2022 9:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119772331#Comment_119772331

No harm no foul :)

Just to be clear, I don't think all roads are evil, quite the contrary, there are some that are needed and urgently due to the way we've allowed planning and transportation to evolve. Same for cars, they serve a purpose and while I sold my own, I still have a license and still make use of GoCar when the rare occasion calls for it but mostly I walk, cycle, bus, train everywhere now and prefer it that way

marno21 · 21-10-2022 12:39am

MOD:

I am temporarily closing this thread and will discuss with the other mods how to proceed. It’s a complete train wreck at present

marno21 · 07-11-2022 4:51am

MOD:

This thread will remain closed until further developments on the project. If something happens related to the project please PM me and I will reopen for discussion.

At the minute it's like Groundhog Day in here and without something new to discuss it'll be the same old arguments that have gone on here for years.

Sam Russell · 30-01-2023 7:01pm

MOD

ABP has collapsed its defence of the HC action so the current planning is cancelled.

I will reopen this thread for discussion but include the PT aspects of solving the Galway traffic problem as the GCC will hardly be built within the next 5 to 10 years but the traffic problem cannot wait that long.

hans aus dtschl · 31-01-2023 12:19pm

I've just read an article on BreakingNews saying "Galway County Council’s planning application for a €600 million ring road around Galway will be remitted to An Bord Pleanála for fresh consideration." does this mean that they are going to try and resubmit it?

31-01-2023 12:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181514#Comment_120181514

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/01/30/application-for-600m-galway-ring-road-to-be-considered-afresh-by-bord-pleanala/

It means that ABP are going back to the point of the inspectors report in Jun 2021 and reassessing from that point.

This reassessment will take account of the Climate Action Plan and the project will have to meet the criteria of that.

Hard to see how it'll be granted permission with that in mind

It's estimated that this review will take 12 months which means its most likely to take about 18-24 months

Sam Russell · 31-01-2023 12:45pm

I think the whole set of mitigation of city centre traffic needs to be carried out and many mitigation measures implemented for PT and sustainable travel - bikes and walking.

It is unlikely that the GRR will be opened within a decade, and so many actions are needed before then. Why is there no PT crossing the QCB? Why can there not be a cycle lane in Salthill along the sea front? Oh, yes, the cars need to be parked there!

The alternative project that have been shelved pending the GCC need dusting down and reconsidered.

Edit: Galway Ring Road meant above.

CatInABox · 31-01-2023 12:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181534#Comment_120181534

Extremely difficult to see where an approval is going to come from on this. If ABP do somehow manage to convince themselves to ok a project that increases emissions while our climate plan says we must reduce emissions, then this will just end up back under judicial review. If, somehow, the courts decide that this project is ok, then it'll be taken all the way to the ECJ.

31-01-2023 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181669#Comment_120181669

Do you mean the GCRR as opposed to the GCC?

It is unlikely that the GCC will be opened within a decade

I think at this stage we're looking at the 2040's

2024 - ABP Decision

2026 - first appeals heard

2028 - Appeal decisions

2029 - Further appeals to the Supreme Court

2031 - SC decision (let's assume no EU referral

2033 - PSC review completed

2034 - Cabinet approval

2035 - Tendering

2036 - Tender approval

2037 - Construction starts

2040 - Road opens

That's best case imho

As you say, AT and PT solutions are required now. The GTS review will likely ramp those up to a much greater level than is currently proposed.

Why is there no PT crossing the QCB?

Simply put not enough demand lives along the route you propose plus it would bypass 30% of the population of the city by not going through the city centre

There is a route planned to do this though its by a private company afaik. Last I heard they were trying to hire drivers

marno21 · 31-01-2023 1:06pm

Extremely difficult to see where an approval is going to come from on this. If ABP do somehow manage to convince themselves to ok a project that increases emissions while our climate plan says we must reduce emissions, then this will just end up back under judicial review. If, somehow, the courts decide that this project is ok, then it'll be taken all the way to the ECJ.

Hard to see where it stops if we go down this road. Where do you draw the line? Stopping construction of houses because emissions targets aren't being met? Forced reduction of car numbers? It's a slippery slope and eventually that line of thinking will hit the buffer stops politically.

A large majority of people in this country know that not building this road will do sweet **** all in the aim of averting/stopping climate change. It will, on the other hand, have a massive impact on people in Galway who want to see this built. And they do have votes and will vote with their feet.

The whole inflicting hardship on people to cut emissions will lead to a very sharp U turn by the Government when people start getting angry about it. And if they don't undo it, the people will vote in someone who will.

31-01-2023 1:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181782#Comment_120181782

No govt has ever been elected on the basis of ability to deliver a capital project afaik, open to correction 2

Hell the same applies to the individual candidates with Ollie Crowe being a good example. He ran a massive campaign on being the man who could get it delivered and he couldn't manage to get elected

marno21 · 31-01-2023 1:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181793#Comment_120181793

Governments don't get elected, TDs do. TDs get elected in constituencies where local issues dominate.

Sean Kyne, a TD in this area, recently remarked at believing he lost his seat partly because he went against local constituents in Oughterard on an issue in 2019. Today he was defending the Ring Road on Twitter. When following the "Climate Action Plan" leads to TDs losing seats because they are allowing the CAP to take precedence over their constituents, the wind might start blowing in a different direction on this issue.

cgcsb · 31-01-2023 1:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181782#Comment_120181782

Housing is essential and building it reduces emissions because it means more people living in modern housing as opposed to more energy intensive dwellings, the people will still exist if housing is built or not.

This is unlike urban or semi urban Road building. Building it generates car journeys that otherwise would not exist.

Seth Brundle · 31-01-2023 1:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181852#Comment_120181852

The only thing I can see is him saying how it is going back to ABP but there is sweet FA in terms of "defending the RR" aside from a non-committal [stupid?] comment about delays for the hard pressed commuters...

https://twitter.com/SeanKyneGalway/status/1620096214271397888

Furthermore, your reference to the CAP has nothing to do with stopping a road which would not be beneficial to Galway commuters in the medium to long term. Agriculture is definitley something that needs to be properly addressed but that doesn't mean that a city which has allowed itself to become shockingly dependent on car journeys should dig deeper into that position simply because!

what_traffic · 31-01-2023 2:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181852#Comment_120181852

Re losing his seat. Did the derelict Connemara Gateway Hotel in Oughterard really "cost" him his TD seat? He has "delivered the Moycullen bypass" currently under construction imagine that would trump getting a hotel reopened and getting used again.

One issue I have not heard our local "Senator" take on - he may have; but I read local papers here in Galway City and County. There is no Secondary School in Moycullen. He himself is based in Moycullen. That would take some volume of peak car traffic off the N59. There is big difference on N59 when we have the School holidays. The local National School can accommodate up to 416 pupils. Some kids West /Northwest of Moycullen will goto Oughterard and some also to Spiddal but there is a huge volume of kids going into Galway City during the school term.

serfboard · 31-01-2023 4:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120182153#Comment_120182153

I never realised that there is no Secondary School in Moycullen. I've often thought that the huge volume of traffic on the N59 in the mornings was just people going to work, but a Secondary School run makes sense. I wonder what the criteria are for building a Secondary School?

Also worth bearing in mind for workers commuting along that road is that if the Connemara Greenway ever gets built, it would be an 11km cycle from Moycullen to the QCB (Using my best Google Maps distance estimate). Would be a lovely journey on a nice day.

Larbre34 · 31-01-2023 4:29pm

Elected representatives doing their constituents bidding??!!

Call the Guards, reestablish the Mahon Tribunal quick!

This road is going to be built. You all know it is, just some of you are more prepared to lie to themselves about it than others.

what_traffic · 31-01-2023 4:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120182819#Comment_120182819

Certainly nice Commuter Greenway route alright, sheltered and flat. With electric bikes - makes it even easier. IDA Danan, NUIG and UHG are about do-able from Moycullen. University and Hospital are probably two biggest employers in the City as well.

31-01-2023 4:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120182819#Comment_120182819

lso worth bearing in mind for workers commuting along that road is that if the Connemara Greenway ever gets built, it would be an 11km cycle from Moycullen to the QCB

Many years ago I was looking at buying in Moycullen for exactly this reason. A daily spin on quiet riverbanks, whats not to love

Pete_Cavan · 31-01-2023 5:39pm

TII should withdraw the application instead of allowing ABP go through the motions again. There is not going to be a satisfactory outcome to doing it this way. If ABP approve it, there will be just more appeals and a complete lack of action. There is no way this project survives the courts, to do so it would have to be in accordance with a plan it was not designed to be in accordance with. Absolute waste of time and resources.

TII need to take a step back and reassess options in the context of current regulations and policies, and post war inflation realities. They can either choose to start that process now or be forced to do so in 4 or 5 years time. Enough time has been wasted on this already.

cgcsb · 31-01-2023 5:58pm

If the original 600m budget was spent on bus lanes, a bus fleet and bike lanes, Galway would be a global sustainability mecca, Freiburg would be shamed.

brianc89 · 31-01-2023 7:04pm

Can they really be so naiive to put the same project in again? It'll 100% be tied up in courts for years.

At the very least, if they want to resubmit, they should remove some of the exits. Right now it's a distributor road that will increase traffic in the medium term back to congested levels.

People might disagree with that, but like it or not, Induced Demand is widely accepted. Any argument against this phenomena is going to fail.

31-01-2023 7:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120183649#Comment_120183649

Whatever about your X on the western side, the X on the Eastern side will never be removed

That junction has been designed with future road expansion in mind. It'll be congested from the day it opens. It will essentially be a single junction to serve approx the population of Oranmore (5k) going through it during peak times

brianc89 · 31-01-2023 7:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120183694#Comment_120183694

Excuse my very crude diagram - just to illustrate the idea of having less junctions.

If this road is designed to bring cars into industrial estates it'll never get approved. If they want to get it built, it needs to be seen as additional road capacity to enable Public Transport reallocation.

Seth Brundle · 31-01-2023 7:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120182844#Comment_120182844

This road is going to be built. You all know it is, just some of you are more prepared to lie to themselves about it than others.

Remind me again what you asserted would happen in Fairview once the schools opened last September 🤔

31-01-2023 10:00pm

A joint statement released by the councils

https://www.galwaycity.ie/news/2933/59/N6-GCRR-Joint-Statement-/

The link is just a blurb, the pdf statement is attached

Joint Statement from GCC GCiC TII 31.01.2023.pdf

Some seriously deluded folks in those councils

Larbre34 · 31-01-2023 10:51pm

Live on site debate on Prime Time now.

Larbre34 · 31-01-2023 11:10pm

Kyne is right here, the whole of the Galway Transport Strategy is the only game in town, not just cherry picked elements.

All the major interests in Galway City want this road to go ahead, so it will go ahead and Pauline O'Reilly needn't worry because there are unlikely to be any Green Oireachtas members come Feb 2025.

Bobeagleburger · 31-01-2023 11:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120184843#Comment_120184843

Greens or no Greens. I don't think it matters anymore. Climate change/action will be a big focus regardless of who's in government.

saabsaab · 31-01-2023 11:40pm

The RR or any major relief road is dead for a generation. What's needed is some simple solutions. Perhaps one way systems no private cars within a certain radius of the city centre. Perhaps a new bridge maybe the new Salmon Weir should have been for traffic and use the old bridge for cycles and pedestrians. How about a light rail along the coast from Barna to Oranmore with a feeder to the city centre?

M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

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