M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

pad199207

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

No. I am pointing out that it is not a spaghetti junction.

The first plan was superior and full free flow - they changed it to the inferior option.

No surprise. People will continue defending this nonsense which is why nothing changes.

Why would they change it! Surely to god there is an extra few bob lying around to develop the junction to its former plan(free flow).
Is there any detailed drawings of this proposed partial free flow plan?

You really do have a hard on for the very worst of US infrastructure development

Two lanes in each direction (with space for an extra lane if required) is sufficient for this project.
Unless Galway has a massive expansion policy over the next couple of decades, or the public transport options fail to materialise, it will never need expanding.

Sam Russell

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

<snip>

The current M6 is basically empty from Athlone to Galway for most of the time. It is busy at commute times near the roundabout at its end in Galway, but other than that it is not busy. The same goes for the M17 and M18. The only photo of the M17 posted on the M17/M18 thread that showed heavy traffic was of the tractor run prior to its opening.

The picture you quote in a previous post of a USA motorway, if built in Galway would require all of the vehicles in the west of the Shannon to be on it at the one time to show the same level of activity. Where would they be going?

You are posting nonsense.

guylikeme

Sam Russell wrote: »

The current M6 is basically empty from Athlone to Galway for most of the time. It is busy at commute times near the roundabout at its end in Galway, but other than that it is not busy. The same goes for the M17 and M18. The only photo of the M17 posted on the M17/M18 thread that showed heavy traffic was of the tractor run prior to its opening.

The picture you quote in a previous post of a USA motorway, if built in Galway would require all of the vehicles in the west of the Shannon to be on it at the one time to show the same level of activity. Where would they be going?

You are posting nonsense.

Agreed. Look at any city in UK (or any country really) of circa 10k population. 2 lanes each way is plenty for their needs on the bypasses.

Remember that Galway is not on the way to anywhere major either, so most of the traffic is simply going to west or east extremeties of the city.

Public transport will still need alot of attention even when this is built.

Sam Russell

guylikeme wrote: »

Agreed. Look at any city in UK (or any country really) of circa 10k population. 2 lanes each way is plenty for their needs on the bypasses.

Remember that Galway is not on the way to anywhere major either, so most of the traffic is simply going to west or east extremeties of the city.

Public transport will still need a lot of attention even when this is built.

I would think it needs attention now. Public transport is hardly available at all in Galway.

Cookiemunster

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would think it needs attention now. Public transport is hardly available at all in Galway.

In fairness that's not unique to Galway. Limericks bus network for example is also terrible.

Sam Russell

Cookiemunster wrote: »

In fairness that's not unique to Galway. Limericks bus network for example is also terrible.

What is unique is the spending of €600 million on a bypass prior to making publin transport a priority.

Hoe long could you run a full free public bus service in Galway on €600 million? Perhaps if PT was free in Galway, the traffic might be much less of a problem.

Cookiemunster

Sam Russell wrote: »

What is unique is the spending of €600 million on a bypass prior to making publin transport a priority.

Hoe long could you run a full free public bus service in Galway on €600 million? Perhaps if PT was free in Galway, the traffic might be much less of a problem.

Again no, it's not unique. Limericks PT was rubbish before the Southern ring road and tunnel and it's still rubbish now. Despite having the ring road the traffic in Limerick is chronic every morning and evening. It's a national problem and it's not just Galway that's suffering from it.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

What is unique is the spending of €600 million on a bypass prior to making publin transport a priority.

Hoe long could you run a full free public bus service in Galway on €600 million? Perhaps if PT was free in Galway, the traffic might be much less of a problem.

Implementing public transport measures takes a lot less time than this project. This project will take 13 years from concept to completion. BusConnects Galway is planned to go to public consultation in Q4 of this year with implementation starting next year.

Sam Russell

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

What is it with these "whataboutism public transport" posts?

One is not exclusive of the other, we can have both a bypass and public transport, if anything the bypass will help take cars out of city that don't need to be there and free up lanes for buses

The point I am making is that €600 million is a lot of money to spend facilitating cars, while a lot less could provide an excellent PT system, even if it had to be free. Galway is not a big place, and has had a few goes at road plans to solve its traffic problems. Look at the Moneenageisha junction. First it had traffic lights and tailbacks. Then it had traffic filter lights and tailbacks, and then it had a roundabout with tailbacks. Now it is back to traffic lights and tailbacks.

Galway has tried everything, except PT.

what_traffic

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Again no, it's not unique. Limericks PT was rubbish before the Southern ring road and tunnel and it's still rubbish now. Despite having the ring road the traffic in Limerick is chronic every morning and evening. It's a national problem and it's not just Galway that's suffering from it.

Exactly - thats why many groups in Galway are sceptical including the Chamber of Commerce who have givin this ring road a cautious welcome. They know for the City Centre that this ring road will have very little impact unless there is huge shift to public transport and cycling. No concrete plans developed yet here on that - the fear, and its well founded as we just have to travel 1h20 down the NEW M18 is that we will get Limerick Mark II job here.

Tuam Road is currently planned for the next major bus lane expansion. That alone will see a big shift to PT but BE won't provide a proper service along the route until the bus lane is open

There is a large portion of it that will be quick to implement. For a certain section they will need several CPO's which are currently being progressed

what_traffic

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

and thats only on east of the river part, west of the river there is 3 old narrow bridges (are they even expandable?) and even more narrow streets flanked by houses

So all in all to add more public transport we need bus lanes for which there is no space without major demolition, alternative is to ban all cars from 2-3km of city center so buses can flow freely and force even more cars to use the single modern bridge over the river.

What causes "gridlock" in Galway City are private cars.
Knocking even more houses is not the answer. This is 1960s stuff.
We don't need to do this here in Galway City. We need to remove the cause of the gridlock which is private cars. We need to start doing elements of your "alternative". What you consider alternative - would be a normal suggestion in many other European Cities today.
Close off certain City streets and Bridges will create a bus network in itself with little cost. Would start with closing off Salmon Weir Bridge and Eglinton St to private car traffic.
We need to start converting those single occupancy car users in the City Center to use the bus and other modes.

JCX BXC

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Again no, it's not unique. Limericks PT was rubbish before the Southern ring road and tunnel and it's still rubbish now. Despite having the ring road the traffic in Limerick is chronic every morning and evening. It's a national problem and it's not just Galway that's suffering from it.

The traffic in Limerick is 'chronic'?

It's far from chronic. The dock road and Dublin road get a little busy at peak hours, outside of that it's a breeze compared to Galway. There are evenings in Galway where I walk faster than the cars. Have walked over the quincentenary bridge and beat the traffic on more than a few occasions. Add a wet day coupled with traffic light failure/accident and the traffic grinds to a halt.

Public Transport is great and all, but without another bridge over the Corrib the traffic issues will never improve.

youngrun

Has the Bus Connects element of the N6 Project been dropped , anyone know

This project if it gets go ahead - And very likely will ,perhaps with some minor variations in route with some associated delays- is still 7/8 years away. In the meantime Galway is full to the gills , a logjam , and with almost addiction levels of car dependency

Is the Public transport element still a runner

I would have thought immediate actions such as park and rides on all arterial routes with bus connections ,extra buses on N59/N17/N84/ extra train capacity on Oranmore/Athenry commuter lines would be an Essential immediate series of actions ,
Is such action in the power of Galway councils , or NTA or a combination

Cookiemunster

JCX BXC wrote: »

The traffic in Limerick is 'chronic'?

It's far from chronic. The dock road and Dublin road get a little busy at peak hours, outside of that it's a breeze compared to Galway. There are evenings in Galway where I walk faster than the cars. Have walked over the quincentenary bridge and beat the traffic on more than a few occasions. Add a wet day coupled with traffic light failure/accident and the traffic grinds to a halt.

Public Transport is great and all, but without another bridge over the Corrib the traffic issues will never improve.

Have you ever driven on Childers Rd? Or the Corbally Rd? Try getting out to Annacotty in the morning. Or actually drive though the city. It may not be as bad as Galway, but a breeze it's not. And it would be a lot better if Limerick actually had a better and more reliable public transport service

And if you actually read my post properly you'd have seen that I mentioned mornings and evenings and that I was talking about poor PT across the country and not comparing Limerick and Galways traffic issues.

JCX BXC

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Have you ever driven on Childers Rd? Or the Corbally Rd? Try getting out to Annacotty in the morning. Or actually drive though the city. It may not be as bad as Galway, but a breeze it's not. And it would be a lot better if Limerick actually had a better and more reliable public transport service

And if you actually read my post properly you'll see that I mentioned mornings and evenings and that I was talking about poor PT across the county and not comparing Limerick and Galways traffic issues.

If you read mine you'll see that I mentioned 'peak'.

PT isn't great, no debating that. However saying Limerick has chronic traffic is far from the truth. I've never felt frustrated at Limerick traffic (excluding traffic related to accidents), but Galways an absolute nightmare on a good evening. Stories of people being told to get off their bus and run to get their connection at the station are common and frightening. Even with vastly improved PT Galway would still be in a poor state traffic wise. Plus we have this whole Irish attitude of every person having their own car and driving themselves to work alone.

marno21

youngrun wrote: »

Has the Bus Connects element of the N6 Project been dropped , anyone know

This project if it gets go ahead - And very likely will ,perhaps with some minor variations in route with some associated delays- is still 7/8 years away. In the meantime Galway is full to the gills , a logjam , and with almost addiction levels of car dependency

Is the Public transport element still a runner

I would have thought immediate actions such as park and rides on all arterial routes with bus connections ,extra buses on N59/N17/N84/ extra train capacity on Oranmore/Athenry commuter lines would be an Essential immediate series of actions ,
Is such action in the power of Galway councils , or NTA or a combination

BusConnects is being progressed as a totally separate project, it has a different timeline to this and is being done by the NTA

Details here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057881168

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we get back to discussing the Galway bypass or City Ring Road [Name change pending]

monument

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

All these European cities have orbitals on outskirts to route cars around center, galway does not

Galway already has a ring road and "All these European cities" do not have motorway-type ring roads around them when there's no notable population on one side of them.

The existing ring road would have more than enough capacity if its local function was reduced and measures were put in place for modal shift and motorised traffic reduction.

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Right now those buses would get stuck in the very same traffic as the cars, goto my point about serious need for demolition if there is more bus lanes to be build

The main way of giving buses priority in similar cities is reducing space for cars.

L1011

Galway's existing ring road ceased to be capable of providing that function a decade and a half ago due to development. That can't be undone now. Motorway status protects new roads from that kind of development

marno21

monument wrote: »

Galway already has a ring road and "All these European cities" do not have motorway-type ring roads around them when there's no notable population on one side of them.

The existing ring road would have more than enough capacity if its local function was reduced and measures were put in place for modal shift and motorised traffic reduction.

Galway does not have a ring road. It has a dual carraigeway relief road which turns into an single carriageway relief road with traffic lights before stopping dead at a roundabout surrounded by housing estates

The main way of giving buses priority in similar cities is reducing space for cars.

Easily done by building a road for cars and using existing urban roads for public transport and active transport.

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

Galway does not have a ring road. It has a dual carraigeway relief road which turns into an single carriageway relief road with traffic lights before stopping dead at a roundabout surrounded by housing estates



Easily done by building a road for cars and using existing urban roads for public transport and active transport.

Or, alternatively making parking in Galway City centre somewhat difficult, but transport somewhat easy. It is the provision of parking that gives rise to some car journeys that an absence of being able to park nearby the destination would render them useless - bike, bus, or walk.

hans aus dtschl

Sam Russell wrote: »

Or, alternatively making parking in Galway City centre somewhat difficult, but transport somewhat easy. It is the provision of parking that gives rise to some car journeys that an absence of being able to park nearby the destination would render them useless - bike, bus, or walk.

I tend to agree too. The only think that will make me give up my car as a primary mode of transport is if it's significantly more difficult to drive than cycle.

cgcsb

I'm not convinced it's a good investment, considering the current bypass/relief road already exists, there's been no attempt to improve bus journey times and frequency, remove parking, put in cycle lanes and actually implement a workable planning system that bans unsustainable suburban/rural development. Remembering it's a City/Town with only 75,000 people and there hasn't been any money provided to improve sustainable modes and promote efficiency. We're basically blowing a massive % of the budget on encouraging more car use, and ignoring the need to improve bus and cycle options entirely.

hans aus dtschl

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Are you from Galway? have you seen how narrow the roads are and close in the houses are on both sides of every street leading into city center?

How would you put in more bus lanes and cycle paths without serious amounts of CPO and demolition on every single steet heading into city center.

We keep hearing about how nice it be to have this and that (yes of course it be nice), but completely avoiding the elephant in the room, narrow streets.

I'll hold my hands up and say I'm not a Galway native and don't drive through the city centre often, but I don't fully understand your argument. Why do people need to drive through the city centre: I presume because they're living in a Western suburb and working in an Eastern one and vice versa?

Should traffic not be minimised through the city centre, allowing private vehicles only to use the N6 and Salmon Weir Bridge crossings? it seems like there should be very little traffic transiting south of that. The same thing is currently going on in Cork where people are protesting heavily that there's a need to transit through the city centre.

But it seems fairly obvious that if you allow people to drive straight through your city centre as a shortest-route option, it will effectively lead to a dependency on that route. You can put the ring roads in place and people will still want to use this route as it'll be "shortest". That's not OK. Perhaps an option for Galway and Cork, where a bad-planning related dependency on city-centre driving has built up, would be a congestion charge on the city centre streets?

By all means build the ring road too, but the idea that it needs to come first to solve Galways traffic problems isn't necessarily correct from all I can see, I think people should be heavily discouraged from driving through a city centre, in general, and that there needs to be a modal shift.

The biggest problem here seems to be the very idea of weaning people off the car. I say seems, again, because I'm not a Galway native and don't drive through the city centre very often.

what_traffic

marno21 wrote: »

Galway does not have a ring road. It has a dual carraigeway relief road which turns into an single carriageway relief road with traffic lights before stopping dead at a roundabout surrounded by housing estates

Its likes your describing what the new proposal will be.
What is proposed is an Outer relief ring road with a dual carraigeway which will turn into an single carriageway relief road at Ballymoneen.

Cookiemunster

what_traffic wrote: »

Its likes your describing what the new proposal will be.
What is proposed is an Outer relief ring road with a dual carraigeway which will turn into an single carriageway relief road at Ballymoneen.

Which will be protected from development along the round and will have free flow junctions.

what_traffic

marno21 wrote: »

Easily done by building a road for cars and using existing urban roads for public transport and active transport.

So for example if the Outer Relief Ring Road was built and open - then on the same day done convert the Quincentenary to 24/7 Bus Lane + 1 car traffic lane and same for Sean Mulvoy Road and Moneenageisha Road?