M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122746872#Comment_122746872

Not sure what you mean by "rammed through" but the likely situation is a decision at least a year from now that the further info has been submitted. If ABP do approve it, legal challenges will almost certainly follow. If it is still standing, things might start moving in 2027. As predicted, the city will have lost a decade and the road may not even proceed at that point.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122747476#Comment_122747476

Yes, this is going to slowly grind it's way through the planning system, and then it is 100% going to go to the courts, regardless of planning outcome.

ABP are in a tough spot with this one. It clearly increases emissions, the opposite of the stated aim of all parties in government, and beyond, so do they take account of that? Are they going to assume the position of enforcing the governments plans for emissions reductions? The Climate Action Plan doesn't say that ABP are in charge of how the government reduces emissions, but the courts have already signalled that ABP should be taking it on board in the last round of court cases.

As I said, a tough one. The last permission was overturned on a process error, i.e. ABP didn't even look at the CAP, despite it being in force. Is there a way to take into account the CAP while also approving this project? ABP might view this as not their responsibility (I'd actually agree, as you can have projects that increase emissions being offset by other, emissions reducing projects, which is the governments responsibility), but the court system have very funny, unpredictable views on this. Entirely possible that the courts decide that ABP do have responsibility, which will really throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

Pale Red

Not sure that an increase in emissions is a given. Battery powered cars will use the road. The phasing out of fossil fuel cars would mean any increase in car journeys on account of the road would not be long term.

hans aus dtschl

Yep, to my mind the responsibility needs to be with some kind of planning authority because it needs to be dealt with on a "project" basis rather than a "holistic" basis.

Any project can increase emissions, but needs to be bundled with equivalent counter-efforts or offsets. The responsibility can't be with a government department IMO, that just won't work. You'd have people in Dublin metro offsetting a ring road in Galway and it would be very difficult to have transparency and accountability. ABP look like the least-worst option unfortunately.

Again, as many of us keep saying, why on earth don't they just bundle a few cheap sustainable projects with this one and get it over the line? The cost would be minimal. It smacks of pure stubbornness. I've dealt with some designers on these big roads projects, they'd argue black is white when it comes to sustainability and regulations, and unfortunately the department and authority have historically been letting them get away with it, so here we are again: "throw it at the wall again and hope it sticks this time". Very frustrating for everyone, whether strongly in favour or strongly against the road.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122748014#Comment_122748014

The predictions and estimates in the planning docs have the ring road as producing an increase, which, from a legal and planning point of view, is the only thing that matters.

That prediction also came about with an ever-growing increase in the adoption of EVs, which, as we can see now, isn't the case.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122748025#Comment_122748025

To be fair, this was submitted to ABP six years ago this week. It was a different world back then. I'd have no doubt if this was submitted this week it would be more holistic in its approach.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122482663#Comment_122482663

Old post i know, but this is just blatantly false. Traffic in Tuam and Loughrea are a fraction of what they were before the bypass. Loughrea has been completely transformed since the M6 opened. Tuam as a commercial town experiencing massive recovery. Only time with traffic is school drop off and pick up and maybe a 10 minute delay at about 5pm. Ballinasloe, Moate, Athlone. Traffic in Oranmore has increased due to the massive amount of building post it being bypassed

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122748181#Comment_122748181

I'd like to think so. Things are improving, albeit slowly. But I think this is going to be submitted again now with a calculated big net increase in emissions.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122748014#Comment_122748014

Cars have more emissions than just tailpipe. Road wear and tyres for one.

Also the emissions from the build will be very large too - interesting one is how the carbon reduction targets will go assuming all cars will be EVs in future.

You can't justify a road project by saying it will reduce car emissions as they'll no longer be stuck in traffic - because cars will be near 0 emissions in the first place.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122748181#Comment_122748181

That's the problem, it was an odd shaped peg for the hole to begin with. The shape of the hole has changed further since then but yet they are determined to keep trying to hammer it in.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122750084#Comment_122750084

They were told ALL this from the get go back in 2013 when the process started here on the ground in Galway City for the second iteration. Not able to imagine or have any type of overall vision except more of the same; lets bring it in a bit closer so won't impact on the bog(the real bypass) and tunnel under Menlo to save the Limestone but had no real plans for the Centre. Still playing the same old trick. Time is catching up with them now. Trying to hammer a screw when they think its a nail.

CruelSummer

Galway city is a complete sh**show with traffic and will continue to get worse when they close roads for buses with nowhere for the through traffic to go because nimby and ‘Green when it suits me’ agendas has delayed a much needed piece of infrastructure in Galway City. The road should be completed and in use now. Buses and bike lanes should be in the city centre and the rail expansion should be well underway. That’s what’s required and if the Government want to keep Ireland’s population growth at its current rate - they need to find a way to get these projects going or places like Galway will fail to function and this will create unrest.

what_traffic

Galway has a car traffic problem.

How do we get more Galway County Car commuters etc into buses is the question that I don't see much work been done on.

Strategy currently seems to be just about displacing City Car users onto buses or bikes that provides capacity for the non-city car traffic.

dconline

Public transport within city limits is unreliable at best, buses don't turn up according to schedule and if they do there is a reasonable chance that they will not stop because they are full. The public transport system in the city needs huge improvement if its to convince people to give up their cars, hopefully the bus corridor is effective in eliminating some of the current problems but some of the issues could be resolved now and there doesn't appear to be the will to do so. A big issue commuters in Galway face is sprawl, no public transport system could ever deal with how spaced out the population is outside city limits, so there will always be a significant dependence on cars in the west of Ireland. As the population grows infrastructure needs to improve with it and to be fair outside of city interconnect motorways there has been very little improvement to the Galway city road network in the last 40 years.

CruelSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122752157#Comment_122752157

I’m not going to engage in the endless rubbish on this thread re people blaming this all on cars or cycling enthusiasts. Your post is part of the problem as to why there isn’t solutions ongoing. NIMBY laws should be gotten rid of in Ireland, the road should be long built along with many other forms of public transport in the City. It’s frankly embarrassing that Galway in its current form is what Ireland calls a developed ‘City’ in 2024. How is anywhere in the country going to develop properly if this is a blueprint and how can we support population growth with proper infrastructure going forward.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122752255#Comment_122752255

It is stuff like this post that explains why the Engineers and Planners in Galway City and County could not implement the Original bypass and now the Ring Road in a reasonable time frame. Not able to imagine or have any type of overall vision except more of the same for the last 20 years is a failing strategy. It fails us all.

thecretinhop

Riddle me this the traffic chaos because of lack of ring road how many millions of tonnes were spewed out of evil emissions would be gone.

Yet the greens want no emissions it's such s...

CruelSummer

This thread has long been hijacked by a minority viewpoint and is an echo chamber of a deeply unpopular party and organisation of the same view and isn’t relevant to reality. To suggest no roads should be built ever again in Galway city is of that viewpoint and I’m not engaging with posters who blame the car driver for living their life trying to get to and from work like it’s a criminal offence, what a joke. If there was public transport and a functioning city, people would use it. They do everywhere it’s there already. People’s lives have been badly affected by the blockers of this development. My bet the faceless opposition to the bypass posters are not even remotely connected to Galway…I’m out. Voters on the doorsteps will be making theirs views known.

hans aus dtschl

The line of discussion of the past few posts is unhelpful from both sides.

Anybody saying that this road will solve Galway's traffic problems is blatantly wrong. Similarly anybody saying that no road should be built is wrong.

The problem seems to be that both sides are failing to take a holistic view and are each blocking the other. If everyone got on the same hymn sheet it would probably be better for everyone: "this road should be a true bypass rather than a glorified distributor and should be accompanied by sustainable transport measures to offset the unsustainable traffic growth it will generate".

The people who designed the road are partly to blame here for the stupid fudged design. Make Bothar na dTreabh a proper distributor. Make the new road a proper bypass. Do not mix the two. Re-do the design and add the countermeasures as part of the project scope, and get on with actually solving Galway's traffic problems.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122752800#Comment_122752800

They are NOT partly to blame - but are fully to blame.

The had a second bite of the Cherry and still failed while getting paid millions in the process.

Third time lucky perhaps, proper bypass like the original and a huge shake up existing road network in City Centre and inner suburbs with focus on public transport and cycle network will get it over the line. So much time wasted

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122752800#Comment_122752800

I'm not quite sure if people said that no road should be built. However, the approach to date has been one of "we will build the road and then consider some public transport and active travel stuff, all of which will be defined at a later stage". The approach is simply yet another car based (with no alternatives) approach which we must move away from.

By focusing on a car based approach only, you condemn those who could otherwise have taken a bus or bike to work to now drive which adds to traffic, adds to emissions, adds to increased household costs, etc. Making driving the default travel choice has shown itself to have failed the people of Galway so I'm not sure why repeating this approach should end differently.

marno21

Lads

I don’t like to stifle debate but this debate has been done to death on this thread.

As of right now, it is local and national policy to build this road. So discuss the scheme as is proposed and how it will be built/move forward. Start a new thread for alternatives or AT/PT related issues

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122753111#Comment_122753111

While I agree the soapboxing is a bit much, in fairness a lot of the discussion is relevant to the project insofar as this project will struggle to meet both ABP approval and avoid any legal challenges against it, on the grounds it won't actually improve traffic or emissions within the city.

That the project is going ahead as per government policy does not mean the project as it is will succeed. I think most of us have very low hopes for this current submission to ABP

what_traffic

I think that's the CRUX of the problem faced by the Councils for the last two decades - they have always used the boards.ie SILO model of looking at "solutions" in standalone modes.

The MODAL shares submitted in the ABP submission to any European transport engineer or planner who has been working the past two decades was an obvious and huge RED FLAG but they stuck with it.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122753111#Comment_122753111

I slightly disagree with you marno, in that I don't think the scheme as is proposed WILL be built or move forward. They're trying pretty much the same thing they failed with twice before. I think that's why the discussion is moving in circles - because the project team is moving in circles.

I'm all in favour of saying "how do we move forward" but it seems crazy for them to feign ignorance when everyone says "I told you the first time why it would fail, and I told you the second time why it would fail, would you please submit something that won't bloody fail this time!".

You know me by now, that I'm not against roads and cars and I also sometimes am affected by crappy Galway traffic, but how would I just get on with chatting about how they should get on with building something which likely won't be built until they resubmit it with serious modifications to the proposal? It seems like head-in-the-sand stuff. Especially when other project teams like the NM20 one show that it can be done well. We're not talking about rocket science here, just fix the design!

I actually dread discussing Galway traffic 10-20 years from now. It'll be like the Dunkettle Interchange project all over again, with people crying "I thought this would solve all of Galway's traffic problems" and all of us saying "it obviously couldn't ever have"!

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122753111#Comment_122753111

The road as planned will also go against government environmental policy. It cannot, as it currently stands, adhere to both policies.

flatty

It will be considerably reduce emissions once built.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122753714#Comment_122753714

Not according to those proposing it (and again were going around in circles because this has been pointed out so many times before)!

flatty

Actually it will solve an awful lot of traffic problems for an awful lot of people.

The other option is to ban further housing development west of the river.

That would hold things as they are (a disaster, but still).

Everyone knows that what has held this road up is wealthy objectors.

Bog cotton anyone!

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122753800#Comment_122753800

I don't think that's an accurate comment either. ABP didn't contest at the court because they didn't have a leg to stand on, precisely because they didn't address government policy. It had nothing to do with protesters, wealthy or not. The proposed design went against government policy and they didn't address that fact whatsoever and couldn't stand over that. It was an omission that many on here pointed at really early on and said "that probably won't fly".

Their next submission will almost certainly be "we actually don't need to adhere to environmental policy because…". Whereas the NM20 team just got on with it and moved the project forward with what looks like very broad approval.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122753800#Comment_122753800

Wrong bog, what's holding up significant housing Development East, North and West of Galway City and surrounds is Wastewater treatment. Arduan which will not have one but has two dual carriageways servicing it to the East of the City - it cannot go ahead due to this.

scrabtom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122754261#Comment_122754261

Who is responsible for the project design?

Is it Galway City Council or TII?

And if the council has anything to do with it, is it possible to hand it over to some other body?

The council in Galway is a pack of useless eejits, and I actually very rarely say that about Irish politicians/governmental bodies.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122754355#Comment_122754355

I'm not confident enough to give you a clear answer, but my understanding/belief is that it is the County Council, City Council and TII together.

I've seen similar "dogs dinners" in Cork, where two LA's and the TII combine to design and commission roads that are well beyond "unorthodox" or "experimental" (Silversprings most recent upgrade for instance). These even fail safety audits but are constructed anyway, and nobody does anything about it. When a TII road reaches a city all bets are off IMO.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122756930#Comment_122756930

Correct: Galway County Council is the lead local authority for it even though majority (and the most substantial elements)of it are within the City Boundary, Western section of Ring Road is in the County. Possibly a legacy issue as the 1st Bypass was pretty much ALL within the County Boundary?

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122753111#Comment_122753111

I mean, it isn't government policy? The latest shove to try and get this road approved is being led by the local authority. The planning which was done as part of Project 2040 was quashed.

So saying that this road will be built per national policy just isn't accurate, especially given what "national policy" is basically will be out the window by Christmas. Policing this seems pointless.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122743792#Comment_122743792

It should be noted that the Quincentennial Bridge opened in the mid-1980s, 1984 I think, and at that time things were fairly grim in Ireland. A lot of young people were leaving, entire communities were gutted by emigration, long lines at the American embassy in Ballsbridge, etc. And those who stayed often had very little prospects, little money, few opportunities, little need for travel as they had nowhere to go and nothing to do when they got there.

A mediocre bridge and a few street-road hybrid "stroads" leading to it on each side may indeed have solved the traffic problems of 1984, but it was only a cheap option that was appropriate given the absolutely dire circumstances of the time.

I don't think a comparison between 1984 and 2024 is particularly good if the broader circumstances are taken into account and I really don't think the current N6 routing is in any way appropriate for a main East-West routing.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122767392#Comment_122767392

The MAJOR weakness of the GCRR is that there are ZERO plans to change this "mediocre bridge" and a few street-road hybrid "stroads" that you mention post GCRR been built. Could have gotten over the line by now if they had.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122775973#Comment_122775973

That's literally the issue yes. If they'd encompassed the current N6 corridor and wrapped it in bus priority measures and so on it'd probably have guaranteed the project would have moved forward! The additional junctions on the new road are a problem too of course, but the lack of ANY attention to this detail is a major failing.

GBXI

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122767392#Comment_122767392

It's still a monumental improvement. As you say, it's 40 years since we've had any similar, single investment. It won't solve all problems but given the lack of capital investment in Galway, bar the university, everyone should be jumping at this. It's so rare it happens.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122776244#Comment_122776244

It would not have to be the entire current N6 corridor. Probably at most 1/5 of the existing City part of the N6.

N6 from Browne Roundabout to the Menlo Park Hotel/N84 junction and also the R338 (Sean Mulvoy Road)→ Cemetry Cross → Moneenageisha Junction. For sure need additional Bus priority measures elsewhere especially on the East Side

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122776688#Comment_122776688

And as we keep saying, that effort may have safeguarded the project.

Without any kind of effort at all though, it seems likely it will go through loads more delays.

j62

Election must be coming because the whole monorail (insert Simpsons tune here) strawman has been resurrected to distract from any discussions of an outer bypass for Galway

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799065#Comment_122799065

In fairness, I think the tram thing has been bubbling along all the time.

But speaking as someone who doesn't expect to see a Cork tram in my lifetime, I don't think the Galway tram will happen in my lifetime either unfortunately. Both LA's are just not yet able for this level of strategic project. It's sad, because even ignoring discussion of the Ring Road I'd like to see trams in both cities.

And again to repeat myself I would be in favour of a bypass and a distributor. But I think the current proposed "ring road" is nonsense. Tram + bypass + N6 distributor projects please. And upgrade rail while we're at it.

Paddico

Anyone know what the next stage in the approval process is?