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Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

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Comments

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Mod Note

    I've deleted a bunch of posts and warned two people.

    If you're just here to wind people up or hurl insults, this isn't the place for you. You should open a Twitter account instead. This is a forum for discussion and debate.

    If you think someone is breaking the rules, don't derail the discussion by calling it out on thread. Report their posts and leaving the moderating to the moderators.

    If you're new here, please read the charter before posting. You're expected to make your own points and back up your own assertions. Dumping links to videos or articles saying "watch this" or "read this" is not an acceptable contribution. Links are meant to support your assertions, not replace them.

    Thank you



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Mod Note

    @olestoepoke is now banned for PMing me to suggest that I have intercourse with myself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,600 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I haven't seen any Ukrainians who wish to stop fighting if it means losing the territory that Russia is currently squatting on. I think we should listen to them about what they want for their own country.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I'm not entirely sure the "give Russia whatever it wants ... for peacccccce!" is a particularly amazing or sound strategy. It's so nauseating in its hubris and intellectual insincerity. Oh Brussels Sprout, don't you love peace?? Contrarians volunteering parts of Ukraine like it was nothing; said it before so many times, but for all the ranting about "the west" it's a helluva imperialist, western outlook to simply chatter that Ukraine cede its territory "for peace".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Where are you getting that from Ukraine is sending people to the front with no training ,

    They are being trained and equipped by Nato forces something like 10,000 at a time across multiple countries before being returned to Ukraine where they are then placed in units ,

    Russia is picking people up and 24 hours later they are in Ukraine with no training and very little equipment,

    Also Russia is stopping men leaving the country too ....



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭JL555



    'Russia is picking people up and 24 hours later they are in Ukraine with no training and very little equipment,' is this true? Could you post a link?

    It would be good to compare the actual level of training each side has against each other. Because if what you say is really happening, then you'd have to wonder about the effectiveness of the kind of training NATO are dishing out, as by now, the Russians would be gone back to the motherland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,621 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    Putin talks in his speech about natural resources being the true currency of the world. He thinks the resource starved west is on the point of failure. He demonstrates a truly Neanderthal level of understanding of how the world works. Resource rich countries are often the most kleptocratic starved of work ethic, innovation and economic diversity

    Post edited by 20silkcut on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,571 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Your problem is that you think it is unnecessary to push genocidal invaders out of your land.

    You are wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,022 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    He's really a very limited leader alright. Though I suppose these kind of corrupt + stagnant resource-cursed countries run by dictators or monarchs are just wonderful if you are living high on the hog as one of the main kleptocrats, or the kleptocrat-in-chief ordering everyone else around (i.e. Putin)!

    Also the key country of the West is the US, and like Russia it has vast natural resources. Europe is oil and gas poor vs ME/US/Russia certainly, but don't think it's badly off for most other things if push comes to shove and it (we) needed to be more self reliant in future (which seems to be becoming more necessary now the way the world is going).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭rgossip30


    The Russians claim is was the AFU . How many have the AFU killed .



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Yes, we do need to be self reliant, and we have been good at some of this.

    We have invested heavily in education which has resulted in the FDI and multinationals operating the European and Middle East headquarters her. Pharma and information tech is very well represented. Beef and dairy are doing very well. Wind is doing well and could do more, but held back by planning.

    The 'west' has allowed China to become the world's manufacturer. This must stop. It is based on global supply chains, which have been shown to be unreliable, when just one ship running aground gives rise to global chaos.

    Russia is a one trick pony - gas and oil and that is it. Apart from some agriculture and fertilizer, they have nothing the world wants. They are not wealthy as an economy, and are very vulnerable as they are dependent on the 'west' for technology and China for manufactured goods.

    Even if they annexed the whole of Ukraine, and even Belarus, they add no solutions to these deficits because they do not have the managerial nor political skills to take themselves out of the abyss they are in. Kleptocracy is not a good political system for a nation because too much goes 'missing' and the lid is kept on society by brutal suppression and propaganda.

    Ukraine must keep fighting while they still can and push Russia from all their land - there is no alternative.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭rgossip30


    Where did you meet these Ukrainians in Ireland easy to say when they are not likely not to be recruited to fight .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,143 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Russia is literally in the process of rounding up people to send to fight. Heretofore, Ukraine has been fighting trained professional soldiers and are on the front foot. They have wiped out a large portion of Russia's professional army, hence the need to cobble together more units from the dregs of society in their prisons. Russia stopped its offensive months ago when they realised they couldn't take the whole country, now they are taking the easier option of defending the south/east. Attacking is harder than defending but Ukraine are still advancing and liberating towns so yeah, the NATO training does seem very effective.

    The desperation of some people to find a negative angle for the Ukraine in everything is astonishing, if only they would put that brain power towards something worthwhile.



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭JL555


    I really don't think that's true, ie, your last sentence. I actually think there are people who are really trying to see more than one side to the conflict, might not always come across that way. I don't think people are intentionally down on Ukraine, certainly not me, they're decent enough people and it's a nice country, been there a couple of times. But I appreciate a mixed type of discussion as it makes you think and maybe even find out something that you might not have been aware of. For me, I do try to keep an open mind, I might not agree with everyone and vice versa, but I like having the freedom to express my opinions, with respect I hope.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,600 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout



    The Russians have claimed that practically every single one of their civilian massacres was a false-flag operation carried out Ukraine. They have no credibility. There is plenty of evidence that shows that they have repeatedly shown to be outright lying. If you don't want to believe that then that's up to you - you are free to believe any conspiracy theories yourself after all.



    Not sure why made the assumption that I met these people in Ireland. There's no shortage of Ukrainians online and on television. The overwhelming majority of Ukrainians still in Ukraine believe they need to keep fighting the invaders. They also overwhelming believe that they will be victorious in doing so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    @Pete_Cavan The desperation of some people to find a negative angle for the Ukraine in everything is astonishing, if only they would put that brain power towards something worthwhile.

    It's a common repeated across several threads and usually the same tactics I'm only asking questions I don't know anything about the conflict but my Ukrainian said the Russians aren't that bad and ukraine should give up their territory for peace and Putin will be happy and leave them alone....

    But the west and Nato caused all of this I don't blame Putin

    The same story or similar appears every Ukraine thread over the last 8 years,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Belarus is preparing for the arrival of 20,000 Russian troops,this could be Dangerous if they aren't poor unfortunate conscripts,

    An extra 20,000 on Ukraines border would mean them having to reenforce their flank while keeping the momentum pushing forward into the east




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,865 ✭✭✭amandstu


    I think we made mistakes** but Ukraine is fighting for its lives against a crowd of thugs and cowed who should be back home in their insane asylum


    There is no grey area ,but if Russia somehow prevails then we will have to accept that .


    Until then give Ukraine all the military, financial,moral and practical support it needs .


    If Ukraine can achieve peace with honour we should continue to assist them(along with reparations from Russia)as they have shown they are the best among us.


    **edit:not clear in my own mind what mistakes they were but this is not where we wanted to end up,for sure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Surely Belarus entering must be a reason for Ukraine to call on support?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,600 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout



    They're not entering - just acting as hosts and potentially allowing Russians attack from their territory, like they did at the start of the war.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,143 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    That sounds lovely but questioning the effectiveness of the Ukrainian troops or their NATO training is not "keeping an open mind". The Russian army has been stalled for months while Ukraine is advancing and has literally just liberated the town of Lyman. No idea what they were doing but the Russians stayed there as they were being encircled and it turned into a turkey shoot when they eventually tried to withdraw.

    "Keeping an open mind" in this situation is just an excuse for sympathising with Russia which deserves no sympathy. One country is invading and committing awful atrocities against civilians while the other side is trying to prevent said atrocities against its people. An open mind would recognise this and not spin both sides nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,143 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    As if he heard you and wanted to shut down this sort of crap, Zelensky does this;

    Apparently Ukraine has enough volunteers and conscription isn't required right now. Meanwhile the Russians are dragging lads out of prison because they can't flee like hundreds of thousands of potential Russian conscripts. I'm sure the atrocities committed by Russia is helping with volunteers coming forward for Ukraine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    They are being flung into the front lines ill-equipped, with few rations, few medical supplies , little in the way of tents, clothing and vehicles. Intercepted communications are detailing tales of misery and unpreparedness.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    May you live in interesting times curse seems to be happening as we speak. Ukraine may be pushed away by another European war in the making. Seems that coming economic crisis is going to be exploited by many countries trying to sort out border disputes and well blame economic collapse on the war. Happened quite many times.

    One would hope that sanity prevails but in light of what is happening it may be just wishful thinking. Have a look at what is going on in Greek and Turkish media. They practically call for the war. It would be interesting to see how this develop considering both are NATO members.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I'd say a good chunk of those Russian "troops" in Belarus are there solely to suppress any would be insurgency against Lukashenko. If he falls, and he is deeply unpopular, much more so than Putin I believe, Putin's position becomes much more exposed and revolutions spread, especially when they share a common language and culture. Belarus could be the straw that breaks the camel's back. I would be amazed if the opposition there hasn't been planning something and as Ukraine is increasingly successful it must give them hope that they can do it too.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Belarus is a rotten pear just waiting to fall.

    There is a huge anti-Lukashenko undercurrent as he is hugely unpopular - even more so being kept in place by brutal coercion imposed with the aid of Russian troops. Any sign of support for the local partisans from abroad resulting in any unwise foray into Ukraine would bring the regime crashing to the ground.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭Economics101


    More "both sides" rubbish. People leaving Ukraine are overwhelmingly women, children and males of over-military age. The exodus from Russia could not be more different. And the huge voluntary recruitment in Ukraine could not be more different from the scraping of the bottom of the barrel going on in Russian prisons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Also, Ukraine has been attacked. If conscription is employed, it will be in self defence. The rag tag bunch of conscripts the Russians are using are the invaders. Enough with the "both sides" garbage already. One state has INVADED another here. There really are goodies and baddies in war sometimes. Ukrainian women are actually volunteering to fight in any case. They are absolute legends and the very, very least we can do to support that country, in what is a much bigger geopolitical fight between democracy and authoritarianism in Europe, is to take a financial hit and turn that thermostat down. Wear a jumper and reduce, reduce, reduce your energy consumption because that is Putin's only real weapon against us, tactical nuclear weapons aside but then it's game over for the world anyway.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    The standard, and only, response of those claiming Both Sides, or some degree of moral absolutism, is to waffle about Ukraine breaking the Minsk agreement - as if everything that has happened since is on them. So, ya know, boilerplate victim blaming: If Ukraine hadn't been so provocative then its citizens wouldn't have been raped. What's a Chechen death squad to do? Couple of blue hats on them and they're mere humanitarians really, protecting russian speakers. We come in peace, stop running away.

    Peace, as has been since day one, is easily achieved if Russian forces discovered the reverse gear in their vehicles. End of. Yet I daresay if Ukraine ceded its land to Russia -, for peace! - til Ukraine was nothing but a sorry vassal, the same absolutionists would suddenly cry worry that a belligerent Russia sat next door to the EU.

    Ah who am I kidding? They'd probably determine Poland should cede its eastern border; ya know. For peace!

    Post edited by pixelburp on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,707 ✭✭✭beggars_bush




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,022 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Don't think we know how most new recruits for the war since Putin's big speech will be treated (I suppose it will all emerge in time) but the precedents don't look great for them. Here is one on a recruitment drive in the Russian prisons for Wagner:

    One woman, Irina, said her husband, who was in jail in Nizhny Novgorod, had told her two weeks ago that he was departing for Ukraine the next day.

    Now these could be people who were in the army previously and had training, but that speaks of desperation (even leaving aside the issue of recruiting prisoners).

    Also been stories in media concerning either Russian military or Russian-backed forces in the occupied areas of Ukraine rounding up random people to fight for them. Again likely with little training or equipment - literal cannon fodder for their war, seems to me almost like Russia's WW2 "shtraf" batallions. Another one from Guardian website:

    On why Russia hasn't been pushed "back" fully, afair it had a massive military strength advantage over Ukraine at the start of the war. This has been reduced somewhat by Ukraines' successes and the Western (US/NATO) help (weaponry and ammunition, training of more soldiers for Ukraine's army, intelligence/information on what Russia is up to etc.).



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭JL555


    I beg to differ. It is undoubtedly keeping an open mind to question things. It may well be that their training is top class. But the question I have is: How effective is it? And is it achieving and will it achieve its goals. It is right to question all inputs into a conflict. If I can compare the conflict to a very complex process, which any conflict is, then I would always have to question the inputs to make sure they are effective and will have they desired outcome. I do note that the Russians have had significantly less than an invasion force that would be required to occupy an entire territory than traditional military doctrine would suggest it should have. So whether we like to admit it or not, the invasion force is probably doing better than they should have. And it may well turn out that Ukraine does bring an end with the help of NATO weapons, training and intelligence. But it looks entirely likely that this conflict will go on for years.

    It is counterproductive to suggest that if we question the effectiveness of something or suggest we keep an open mind is just an excuse to sympathise with one side or another. It is also very clear to me that this conflict is causing terrible pain and misery, and it is also clear who made the decision to invade in February and should be held accountable for the trail of destruction left. Just to be clear, I am not a Russian sympathiser. But my interest does happen to go further than one side = good and the other side = evil. Even though it is often clear who the aggressor is, no conflict is ever that simple, at least not for me.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    With Ukraine having taken back Lyman, a town supposedly now part of Russia - what now Moscow? We'll soon find out just superficial the referenda were. Donetsk, "Russia" has buckled and Lyman a supposed key logistics hub for Russia.

    Putin's little Chechen butcher seems to be keen to (low yield) nuke the Ukrainians;




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭fash


    Russia vastly outnumbered Ukraine in terms of weapon systems, aircraft, missiles, artillery, tanks, IFVs, etc etc.

    The fact that Putin was deluded enough to fail to bring sufficient manpower to occupy Ukraine doesn't alter that fact.

    The fact that Russia's verified losses are 4 times that of Ukraine- despite having the element of surprise and the choice of where and when to attack as well as vastly greater numbers of weapon systems to begin with does however. Furthermore those losses include the Moskva - the Russian Black Sea Fleet flagship lost to a country without a navy. Many analysts expected Russia to take over Ukraine in weeks - and early on, the western states only prepared for that possibility. Consequently, western states only provided handheld weapon systems- such as javelins.

    So no- Russia isn't doing "better than they should have", they've destroyed almost all of their elite/professional infantry units & much of their military leadership, burnt through a couple of decades of vast Soviet artillery and other weapon systems and their invasion culminated 3 months ago. At the same time western production of materiel is only beginning to crank up - and Ukraine was able to cripple the Russian army's logistics with a total of 20 Himars alone -35 year old American technology.

    Russia is in a situation where it tries to keep Kherson (as Putin refused Russian military requests to pull back)- despite being unable to supply it as all the bridges are cut to heavy traffic. They are now digging tanks from the 1960s out of storage. Between emigration and mobilisation they'll lose 10% of their working male population by next year. They've cut 10% from every public sector budget so far (except defence & security)- and the effects of sanctions will only really get felt in the coming months as the problem of lack of spare parts for industrial equipment starts to compound.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,141 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    To add to your excellent post, this war has also shown up so many Russian claims about the quality and quantity of tanks, aircraft and weapons systems as bogus... tanks that were supposed to have advanced reactive armour didn't have them etc etc

    Some of this is down to corruption and some of it is down to the systems not actually up to scratch.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭fash


    Early reports of a collapse of Russian positions in northern Kherson - the Ukrainians moving down the river (& thereby protecting their left flank)

    Appears to be another rout - and could allow another cauldron (as the remaining Russians in northern Kherson will be surrounded on 3 sides) - plus allows for targeting of important nodes on the other side of the river:


    Plus more good news in Luhansk with apparent Russian withdrawal from Novodruszhesk:

    Also a good indicator of where things are going is looking at the geometric rates of weekly (not just cumulative!) losses of equipment suffered by the Russians - whereas Ukrainian losses are slow & steady - despite being on the offensive.

    Edit:

    Also Ukrainians seem to be heading to Svatove from Kupyansk: https://twitter.com/mhmck/status/1576622683030048768?s=20&t=C_D3TICsYBhUVYMR8nuVMw


    It would be interesting if there are collapses of 2 fronts in one day.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,570 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    This will be the same Chechnyan leader who refused conscription in Chechnya. Easy to call to fire low yield nukes when it's none of your people in the firing line.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    If these are remotely true, then it just furthers the wonder at what on earth the Russian mobilisation will serve here, especially when "recruits" look like they'll have worse equipment and supplies than the ones currently getting totally rolled over. It'd be a farce if it weren't poor souls dying for the arrogance and idiocy of their leadership; they're not all rapists and savages, plenty would be confused, decent Russians who just wanted to earn a few shekels.

    At this stage the only problem Ukraine might have is curtailing an encroaching sense of invulnerability; I'm sure there's a loss coming, especially if Moscow makes a desperate move; the trick will be persuading these rampaging batallions not to get complacent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭fash


    The mobilisation serves 2 purposes:

    1. A bunch of Russian contract soldiers were planning on leaving at the end of their contracts & volunteer battalions were refusing to go to be killed - this allowed Putin to force anyone he wanted to stay.

    2. It serves as an internal escalation to dampen criticism against the upcoming collapses & looks like Putin is doing something.

    Those mobilized are mobilized without training and without trained officers - there have been many reports of Russians mobilized and then in the middle of a warzone 5 days later - with huge numbers of those getting mowed down. Modem battlefields are even far less welcoming to non-professionals than those from which the term "cannon fodder" came about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,143 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    So your idea of keeping on open mind is to assume that the Ukrainian army is doing worse than all the evidence suggests. Most would consider that denying reality but whatever, believe what you want to believe.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    It also callously eliminates tens of thousands of young men. These young men are likely to be the most disaffected as the Russian economy implodes under the sanctions and they find themselves out of work and surplus to requirements. Young men like that with little to lose in life are a powder keg no regime wants around. It's much easier to control middle aged people and pensioners.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,707 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    will they just surrender en masse?

    would they then be exchanged in the future or just held by ukraine?



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,539 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Yes those are two important factors, but there are a few more:

    3 . Mobilised troops, even with limited refresher training etc can still effectively occupy and maintain order away from the front lines, securing the rear of the army and also freeing up other troops for the frontlines

    4 . Specialists have been recruited to fill gaps in some frontline units e.g. if tank crews are undermanned, they can take on a new recruit who has experience in a tank from their conscript training, and they can get up to speed on the job.

    5 . The psychological impact of an impending deployment of 300,000 or more soldiers, even if they are not particularly well trained, is important. Even if the Ukrainians don't rate them as frontline soldiers, there is nevertheless an increased urgency to trying to capture Kherson before reinforcements can arrive, and this could lead to riskier tactics.

    6 . Some of the mobilised troops might be subjected to proper training in the background rather than being shipped out to Ukraine straight away. These soliders could get training over the winter and so next Jan/Feb they will have more troops to bring in

    While there are credible reports of new recruits being dumped in or near the frontlines with no clue what to do, I'm not sure that this is typical of the mobilisation. Maybe Russia, having not had to mobilise since WW2 are rusty on the procedures etc and these are just mistakes that they will learn from, rather than being deliberate policy. But then again, who knows!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,621 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    With 50 or so of the richest nations on the Earth stacked against them and two of the biggest nations sitting on the fence, Russia are facing impossible odds here. Modern wars are not necessarily won on the battlefield or by numbers of troops but by the factories and industry’s and economies behind the scenes. Ukraine have all the advantages in that regard. It’s taken until now for the effects of this to be seen but it can clearly be seen now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    From looking at the updates maps, it would seem that the Ukrainians are very close to Donetsk and Kherson.

    What possible scenarios could we be in line for if the Ukrainians reach the city limits? Kherson I'm not sure but Donetsk i imagine would be a fiery response



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,143 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The Ukrainians penetrated the Russian line and drove down the 30+km down the westen bank of the Dnipro in little more than 24hrs. Looks like another pincer which could trap thousands of Russian soldiers in northern Kherson Oblast. The Russian Army seem incapable of avoiding repeated outflanking and encirclement, what a shambles they are.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,341 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Well it's nice to see that Russia keeps their voting habits; this is from the Russian duma who were voting for the annexation (four rounds of voting in total due to four regions):

    • For "joining" the DPR - 413 votes
    • For "joining" the LPR - 412 votes
    • For the "annexation" of the Zaporozhye region - 409 votes
    • For the "annexation" of the Kherson region - 411 votes

    Worth noting that there were 408 members of the duma present at the time of the vote...



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    You are forgetting Putin's casting vote(s).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,209 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    The frontline has been on the outskirts of Donetsk for 8 years - its a heavily mined and fortified area on both sides. The Ukrainians have always been "very close" to Donetsk.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Russia doesn't know where to draw the literal line of the border for its annexed regions; presumably because those Ukrainians keep taking the land back. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't all so pathetic at this stage.




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