Parking and traffic in Phoenix Park

02-03-2022 10:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118718407#Comment_118718407

No, I'm saying that 30KM is a ridiculous speed to drive at unless you are in a housing estate or somewhere similar.

I don't see why they had to change it at all. If anything it should have been increased to 60.

But as mentioned, it won't be enforced or obeyed anyways.

Flinty997 · 02-03-2022 10:36AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118718496#Comment_118718496

Well it's a park. They don't want anyone driving down the middle of it.

Which is why they are directing all the drivers down the middle of it.

"This is the way"

02-03-2022 10:38AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118718496#Comment_118718496

It won’t be obeyed, but maybe speeds from from 60 to 40 or 45.

gerrykeegan · 02-03-2022 10:45AM

I was running in the park this morning, it was funny to see one driver observing the 30km which resulted in about 15 cars all wedged behind them forced to do them same, all it takes is one. On the way back out I saw exactly the same thing happen.

Flinty997 · 02-03-2022 10:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118718568#Comment_118718568

Maybe they could hire that driver to do that all day. Maybe they could call him something like a ranger, park ranger or something....

Maybe a couple of speed cameras disguised as deer. Maybe that would too dear for the opw though.

Seth Brundle · 02-03-2022 11:27AM

Looking on Twitter just now, it seems that Pat Kenny had former AA lobbyist Conor Faughnan on his show.

Faughnan apparently claimed that the 30km/h limit risks risk undermining the 'credibility of speed limits'. Apparently a slower speed limit is not necessarily the safer one. Somehow!?!?!

Seemingly Kenny went on to say "When the speed limit is only 30km/hr, the temptation to be on your mobile phone may be overwhelming"

Flinty997 · 02-03-2022 11:46AM

Lots of things are counterintuitive.

There are studies that show inappropriate speed limits have a net negative effect. But generally higher speed has worse outcomes. But not always, motorways are generally are high speed but low accident rates.

But to know what's appropriate you have to have lots of statistical data and engineering studies. Sometimes even with that there some other reason to set the limit.

However in Ireland there doesn't seem to be any method to it.

Seth Brundle · 02-03-2022 12:24PM

There are studies that show inappropriate speed limits have a net negative effect. But generally higher speed has worse outcomes. But not always, motorways are generally are high speed but low accident rates.

Higher speed always has a worse outcome. Motorways are simply designed to remove the vast majority of risks that exist on non-motorway roads and therefore they allow for a higher speed limit. However, a collision on a motorway at speed will always be worse than a the exact same collision at a lower speed.

Larbre34 · 02-03-2022 12:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118718861#Comment_118718861

100%.

Not the Plank Kenny comment obviously.

Phil.x · 02-03-2022 12:38PM

Comedy central opw, complete laughing stock.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/phoenix-park-bus-route-delayed-as-gates-found-to-be-too-narrow-1.4815672

02-03-2022 12:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719244#Comment_118719244

Not really. the route was chosen, its been found to be unsuitable, and now a solution needs to be found.

The solution will be new buses, a new route or new infrastructure

Not a big deal and stuff like this happens in literally every project

Flinty997 · 02-03-2022 12:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719157#Comment_118719157

Roads with 20 and 30mph speed limits are MORE dangerous than motorways, say experts

Motorways are the safest roadways in the State despite the higher speeds travelled on them, according to new research from University College Cork. The most dangerous are three-lane roads (those with a climbing lane) and undivided two lane roads, the study concludes

In the process they discovered that there is serious under-reporting of accidents, something that made the project difficult. While almost all fatal accidents are reported, many injury accidents, especially those involving minor injuries, are not.

But what would they know.

Seth Brundle · 02-03-2022 01:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719357#Comment_118719357

I'm not sure what you're getting at. I made the point that higher speed always has a worse outcome when you compare the same incident at a lower speed. I made this claim in response to you saying "But generally higher speed has worse outcomes. But not always". Speed will always make an incident's outcome worse.

What you are doing is comparing different road types and different incident types as well as different speed types to prove wronog something I never said.

Flinty997 · 02-03-2022 01:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719355#Comment_118719355

Considering they've refused for years to make changes to the gates for modern practicality or safety, I can't see them doing it for this.

Last time they had a bus the OPW caused caused so much gridlock with traffic that the bus was unable to move around the park.

At least we have a cycle lane now. Which fits nicely into the historic and natural aesthetic they've refused to compromise on with the gates.

02-03-2022 01:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719428#Comment_118719428

Eh? The gates are a protected structure so they are not going to be changed regardless.

As I said, the solution will be new buses, a new route or new infrastructure, with the new infrastructure being a new bus only access point into the park.

Really not a big deal

daymobrew · 02-03-2022 01:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118718496#Comment_118718496

If you have cruise control you can use it to maintain the speed limit when the "design speed" is much higher, as it is on Chesterfield Avenue. At a lower speed it's quieter, less stressful, there's lower emissions and you have more time to react to any issues.

There's a very interesting video discussing speed limit signs and "design speed" at the end of this article: https://irishcycle.com/2022/03/02/sorry-but-putting-up-a-sign-is-not-a-good-way-to-lower-speeds/

It describes designing a street so that drivers naturally driver the desired speed e.g. narrowing a road slows drivers down while multiple wide lanes results in faster driving. In my submission to the OPW I did suggest such changes.

Flinty997 · 02-03-2022 01:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719426#Comment_118719426

I compared nothing. Its demonstration of something being counter intuitive when it comes to speed limits.

Flinty997 · 02-03-2022 01:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719476#Comment_118719476

The OPW progress in the park speaks for itself when it come these kind of projects.

02-03-2022 01:26PM

https://twitter.com/CiaranCuffe/status/1498983330846490625?s=20&t=9lEkN6lssL3RJWcajmA51Q

02-03-2022 01:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118718568#Comment_118718568

What will eventually happen there is people will get impatient and start overtaken which can be very dangerous.

Suddenly a road with a very safe history could have accidents.

Flinty997 · 02-03-2022 01:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719498#Comment_118719498

Do you think people drive fast because they lack the ability or technology to drive slow. Or they don't know the speed limits, or the journey time differences.

Flinty997 · 02-03-2022 01:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719586#Comment_118719586

What history? been asking for the statistics that cover the past 12 months. No ones provided any.

02-03-2022 01:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719586#Comment_118719586

Its going to go one of two ways

Either they'll enforce the limits through design elements (chicanes, speed bumps, tables, narrowing etc etc) or they'll use cameras.

Also, the potential for dangerous driving is not a reason not to try make things safer.

Flinty997 · 02-03-2022 01:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719682#Comment_118719682

You're basing that on what, OPW record on traffic issues, road design, or statistics, or a study of some kind?

daymobrew · 02-03-2022 01:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719640#Comment_118719640

I think that people have gotten so used to a lack of enforcement they no longer pay attention to speed limits; they drive what the road "feels" like (the "design speed" I mentioned earlier). Driving 30km/h is very different as it feels much slower than it actually is, because, with soundproofing, it will be super quiet inside the car. I set my cruise control to 30km/h on Delwood Road and it felt very strange. It takes getting used to.

As for technology, they probably never think to use it for such a situation. Some forget their car has indicators :-)

Flinty997 · 02-03-2022 01:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719756#Comment_118719756

Well that implies there no point relying on the driver.

02-03-2022 02:10PM

If this were a standalone piece of speed limiting I think it would be dropped, but I think the more likely outcome IMO will be that every road in Dublin will become 30kph (other than the main arterial roads up to a certain point)

Flinty997 · 02-03-2022 02:22PM

Working well so far..

Dublin City Council has done a few speed surveys on Western Way, which in recent years has had a limit of 30km/h.

In July 2016, when the road had a limit of 50km/h, roughly 53 percent of drivers broke the speed limit over two days, show the survey results.

But about three years later, another speed survey on 22 January 2020 found that 89 percent of drivers broke the speed limit.

Then, there’s the question of Garda enforcement. In the first quarter of 2021, Gardaí issued 1,157 fixed-charge notices for speeding in 50 kph, 60km/h and 80km/h zones in the Dublin Metro Region,

But there were no fines listed for breaking limits in 30kph zones, which, council officials...., Gardaí weren’t enforcing.

daymobrew · 02-03-2022 02:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719846#Comment_118719846

My reply was my uneducated opinion so please don't let it guide public policy. That said, the road does need changes to have a stronger influence on driver behaviour, to force them to slow down.

In the video I linked to it commented that drivers will slow down if they feel that a higher speed may result in damage to their car. One example was of tall trees parked very close to the edge of the road. The drivers move closer to the centre of the road, away from the trees, then slow down because of oncoming cars. Maybe this could be an idea for Chesterfield Avenue - cycle track/trees/lane/lane/trees/cycle track.

hardybuck · 02-03-2022 03:16PM

Driving through Chesterfield Avenue was an absolute pain in the a** this week. I note the benefit of lower speeds if there's a crash, but I genuinely can't recall any accidents apart from the time the poor cyclist and pedestrian collided in the cycle path a number of years ago.

I don't know how the new policy can be implemented without any evidence that it's necessary. One van a few cars ahead of me was getting very frustrated and was looking for opportunities to overtake.

The revelation that the buses are too big to fit through the gates is just more of it now. I see they've also put a bus stop in the middle of the segregated cycle path on Chesterfield Avenue - you couldn't make it up.

It just feels like the OPW, and a few committed stakeholders, have put the blinkers on now and have stopped listening to the people they're annoying.

Parking and traffic in Phoenix Park

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