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Ireland's defensive frailty exposed by Russian exercise

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,620 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    A lot of people here are emphatic that we should not be spending on the defence forces. They might not be aware the navy boards hundreds of vessels at sea every year, plays a huge role fighting smuggling, an air ambulance, and a surveillance and observation service for the Irish Coast Guard. It hasn't been able to perform these roles properly and we have had to bring EU boats to help. They also might not be aware that we are under sustained espionage from countries such as China, for example China is targeting retired Irish soldiers with bribes. We don't need F16s but we should beef up the navy, intelligence, buy some drones and the air corp improvements.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chinese-spies-tried-to-buy-defence-forces-security-secrets-w7hm2hwf8



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Too busy trying to shout down any one who thinks we should already have the equipment,

    For some reason several posters keep bringing up invasion ......



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 804 ✭✭✭techman1


    The Russians have always had very high developed submarine and space tech. It’s hardly beyond their capabilities. You’re talking about a country that has successfully landed probes on the surface of Venus. 

    Remember the Kursk disaster way back in 2000 when one of their new generation nuclear submarines sunk in the Barents sea. They didn't have any way of accessing the crew in the submarine and rescuing them. Eventually after a storm of protests from the families they accepted Norwegian and British help, it was the Norwegian and British divers that opened the hatch of the Kursk to find all the crew dead. However the Russians delayed asking for help for seven days, it was very early in Putins leadership and he looked very vulnerable and unsure at that time. His leadership was almost over before it started



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,924 ✭✭✭Polar101


    Yeah, military has some use during peacetime as well, that's why I don't think the argument that any money spent of defense is wasted if there's no war is very good. There is some ground between "full pacifism" and "anti-Russian invasion" level spending.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    Class, a hypothetical situation. Well I hope that on the off-chance a drone flying assassin tries to “take out” the great and the good during this imaginary scenario, that a Defence Forces soldier in a €500 beret jumps out to take the bullet while going “ahhhh.”

    I don’t deal with fantasies. In the real world Ireland won’t get invaded and the King of Constantinople won’t be assassinated while unwrapping a Ferrero Rocher with Michael D.

    Let the aviation authorities worry about plane crashes, let the foreign dignitaries worry about their own security if they’re at risk of getting Jason Bourne’d, and let’s not pretend we need a big kick ass army because we don’t.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    It is the job of the DF to engage in such hypotheticals, as they are realistic.

    If such things were totally unrealistic, why did the Irish government spend so much money deploying the Irish military, complete with surface to air missiles (not that Ireland has many of them) to provide security for the visits of people like the President or the Queen? Even Trump cost the taxpayer $10mn for his unofficial visit. Air security was provided by the US Air Force as Ireland had (and still has) no such capability.


    Your mockery of the real-world requirements but undermines your understanding of the everyday purpose of the Defense Forces.

    let the foreign dignitaries worry about their own security if they’re at risk of getting Jason Bourne’d, and let’s not pretend we need a big kick ass army because we don’t.

    Do you want foreign nations to determine whether or not to shoot down aircraft in Irish airspace? Do you travel? Do you expect the police forces in those countries to create a safe environment for you, or would you expect the Gardai to do it, because it's your decision to go into another jurisdiction?



  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭Black Noel




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,272 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    It is no coinsidence that the Russians have a fleet off our (the EU) coast. It must be related to their plans for the Ukraine in some form or other. Would Russia threaten Shannon if the US started sending troops/equipment to the Ukraine?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    It's a possibility id imagine cyber warfare and electronic interference could come into play ,both would give the Russians deniability and put it down to others.

    Some on here would lap it up and blame the CIA trying to make Uncle vladi look bad.

    Similarly when the Russians fleet came through Scandinavia military grade drones were spotted over Stockholm and several sensitive locations around Sweden



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    But these are Russians after entering ukraine,lots of other examples



  • Registered Users Posts: 11 Micko67


    The way I see it, times up for the Irish government in kicking the can down the road in its underinvestment of the Defence Forces, it’s hand will be forced by the us,eu &uk. They won’t care if Ireland are in nato or not and will coerce economically if they won’t step in with investment as they will say they can’t protect western economic infrastructure.

    the Irish government will use the next release of the defence paper as the catalyst for investment and say it’s not a result of the above powers.

    I’d expect to see a sizeable investment in the defence forces in order to monitor and harass any aircraft or ships military or otherwise operating in or transiting the Irish EEZ.

    Anyone who thinks it’s a black and white situation in that we either can’t stop foreign powers at all so why bother or we have the capability to go toe to toe with them is not living in the real world.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    How exactly can Europe encircle Russia?

    We’re allowing the Russians, specifically Putin and his mob, to set their own deranged agenda here. The Soviet Union disappeared 30 years ago. It should be Russia trying to join NATO, and the EU for that matter. Why can’t Russia be a normal country like Germany or Canada? And why are most people in Russia still so poor despite the incredible scientific and technological achievements of that country in the past? The answer lies in a dreadful, corrupt government that steals from its own and seeks to terrorize its neighbours.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    What aircraft? None of this is happening except in your head. The guards following me as I travel abroad? Talk some sense good man.

    You mentioned Ireland paying €10million to host Trump, that’s several orders of magnitude less than the €1billion increase you originally suggested. You’re suggesting we should invest billions of euros purely to host war criminals and sex pests on jollies every few years.

    If the likes of Trump, Biden, Clinton, Bush et al want to visit Ireland then they can do it on their own dime, or it’s at the very least not worth investing billions of euros annually into the Defence Forces in case a fanciful London Has Fallen scenario might happen. Life isn’t like the movies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Shao Kahn


    All the arguments I've seen here (from yourself and others) for building up the scope and capabilities of our military, don't actually involve military operations.

    Most of you are now going to great pains to distance yourself from the actual primary reason for military organizations to even exist - which is traditional military deployments / operations.

    You are promoting the civilian use and benefits of the armed forces. The reason you have switched focus, is because you know how deeply unpopular war and militarization of a country is among the average joe and jane on the streets. You can't get these people on board if you promoted the militaristic rhetoric you'd prefer to use.

    But the reality is, if we're talking about the civilian benefits of the armed forces... you'd be far better off just funding those civilian institutions rather than re-purposing your armed forces for such tasks.

    I can completely understand nations that have a historical need to maintain a sizable military, using their skills and capabilities in everyday civilian duties. It makes perfect sense to give these men/women and expensive equipment something useful to do in everyday life outside of traditional military operations.

    Some nations have no choice in the matter. Lets take Israel for example: Because of their everyday reality, and the fact that most of the neighboring nations are hostile towards them, they have no choice except to spend obscene amounts of money on their military "just in case" something huge kicks off and someone tries to wipe them out.

    Ireland is actually very fortunate in that we don't really have any such enemies. And even when we were actively fighting the largest empire in human history right on our doorstep, we still had no need for a huge bloated military with expensive hard wear etc as it would have been fairly useless for the manner in which we chose to fight the Brits. We would have easily lost a traditional war against Britain.

    So, you can see how it's very hard to convince your average Irish person of the merits behind dumping significant expenditure on our defense forces. We managed to fight off one of the most powerful nations in history, without the need for such infrastructure. Why would we need it now, when there are even fewer threats to our nationhood or sovereignty?

    Any of the civilian areas you are highlighting, can be much more adequately served by funding the appropriate civilian institutions - gardai, coast guard etc etc.

    There is a huge amount of ego and nationalistic pride wrapped up in nations that heavily fund their military's. This is very much a hangover from previous generations, when overt military symbolism was one of the best ways to promote national strength and unity.

    Ukraine are sadly one of these nations, that still falls into this category. If Russia did in fact commit to a large scale invasion, their old school nationalistic pride would prevent them from backing down from that confrontation. The result, would mean initially they will face down the Russians in a traditional head-to-head military campaign... sustaining catastrophic loses to men and equipment. Before eventually falling back into a guerrilla warfare style like we did with the Brits.

    That brute force strong man image, that still infects Putin and nations like Russia... sadly is also present in nations like Ukraine too.

    Here in Ireland, we actually fought the smarter war. You're much better off just falling back into those hit-and-run tactics right away when faced with an enemy who is much stronger than you. Taking pride and ego out of the equation.

    I've had these types of discussions with many of my eastern european friends over the years. And even though most do tend to agree, it's very hard to detach from this mindset. It's a big part of who they are. We are actually lucky here in Ireland, as we don't really have the same hangups and militaristic mindset.

    Building up our military would be mostly about ego and vanity, nationalistic pride. Not actually about creating an adequate defense of our Island. And certainly not about civilian everyday usefulness.

    "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives, and it puts itself into our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)



  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Back to this.

    I was watching The Last Leg on Channel 4 last night and the host Adam Hills (Australian) made a joke to Sandi Toksvig (Danish originally) that Denmark had sent both its planes to help Ukraine.

    Having a flight of F16s with F35s ordered and the ability to deploy them to a potential front line wouldn't stop those that think they are superior from laughing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭XsApollo


    Hold on, Adam hills might laugh at us?

    We better Breakout out the tissues and chequebook.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,620 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    You say that 'Any of the civilian areas you are highlighting, can be much more adequately served by funding the appropriate civilian institutions - gardai, coast guard etc etc', but many of these non war tasks have no civilisation institution. Coast guards are unarmed and their rescue boats top out at 27 tonnes, while you have illegal fishing boats up to 14055 tonnes with armed illegal fisherman. What about cartel boats. The Air Corps fixed wing craft provide an important job in this respect which the Coast Guard lacks. You absolutely cannot stop these guys with coastguards in rigs and rescue boats. I have no idea why you think coast guards are cheaper. All of these workers are public servants with wages at relatively similar levels. The Gardaí are not equipped to do rescue missions in Afghanistan or to provide high level security for civil unrest or foreign dignitaries. Our navy has been singled out for criticism by the European Commission for not being strong enough to enforce EU fishing policy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭Black Noel


    There's a lot of deception and propaganda in war and international relations 👍



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    But still these are Russian tanks in Ukraine ,💥💥💥



  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭Black Noel


    I've often thought our best, most efficient approach to defence would be to adopt the Swiss model, arm and train every reliable citizen.

    If a large number, say 1.5 million of the population were armed or at least trained, you would have a formidable force outside of the permanent DF.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire




  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭Black Noel




  • Registered Users Posts: 11 Micko67


    I would have thought the primary reason for the Defence Forces to exist is for defence not for military deployments/operations.

    you talk about ego and national pride in historic sense as a reason not to increase military funding but in fact the reason Ireland needs increased military funding is to give us some capability to detect aggression in the future.

    In any event whether the defence or civilian authorities have the hardware that is required the bottom line is we still don’t have it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭Black Noel


    Well, let's hope it never will. But if we believe we need an army, why not an armed citizenry (Switzerland hasn't been invaded for centuries)?

    A lot cheaper than many alternatives.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    @Shao Kahn great post, I totally agree.

    A lot of the army-man types are totally in love with the hyper-competent military trope you see in films and think that carries through in real life. Who can discipline our wild kids? The military. Who should look for missing civilian airplanes? The military. Who goes out to fix the boats? The military. They're the best of the best.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    I suppose the mentality behind the idea of not investing in the defense forces is a simple case of cowardice , chickenshititis,

    The idea of we ( like they represent a majority) don't need to spend on any military infrastructure because there is nobody is going to invade us ( nobody mentioned an invasion ) ,they are afraid of national pride in having a decent military , Every other country in Europe can afford to defend their own Borders skies and waters ,and most are set up as purely defensive posture ,they don't threaten their neighbors,they don't want to expand their territory ,but they can defend themselves .

    Oh but someone's military will come and protect us if a global conflict breaks out of course they will because we have zero ability to do so ,and if they don't then what ehhh ehhh ehhhhhhh.

    Maybe they it's about national pride ,or it's about keeping the country down as a whole ,I'd imagine if we did get invaded what the people saying don't spend anything on the military would be doing , hiding under a bed drowning in bodily fluids crying about being a pacifist or knocking on their own neighbors telling grand tales of which political parties they follow as seen in a lof of conflicts.

    It's either arguments for arguments sake or just looking for a bit of attention,I doubt they are actually being serious more likely wind up merchants



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    They have a professional army and air force supplemented by reserves and use national service ( great national pride) and they are set up to defend their country ,

    Civilian Army -😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,620 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    It was mentioned above that "And even when we were actively fighting the largest empire in human history right on our doorstep, we still had no need for a huge bloated military with expensive hard wear etc as it would have been fairly useless for the manner in which we chose to fight the Brits. We would have easily lost a traditional war against Britain." However this is not so accurate because during the Civil War the army hit 60,000 and 20,000 during WW2.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    True but expect alternative hypothesis solely based on what they saw on Netflix



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,022 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    @Shao Kahn

    All the arguments I've seen here (from yourself and others) for building up the scope and capabilities of our military, don't actually involve military operations.

    Most of you are now going to great pains to distance yourself from the actual primary reason for military organizations to even exist - which is traditional military deployments / operations.

    You are promoting the civilian use and benefits of the armed forces. The reason you have switched focus, is because you know how deeply unpopular war and militarization of a country is among the average joe and jane on the streets. You can't get these people on board if you promoted the militaristic rhetoric you'd prefer to use.

    But the reality is, if we're talking about the civilian benefits of the armed forces... you'd be far better off just funding those civilian institutions rather than re-purposing your armed forces for such tasks.

    Well at the moment I think all of the stuff discussed as requiring urgent investments (some of it is "defence" of Ireland from threats of sorts, but it's a long way off actually fighting a war against invaders) is supposed to be the responsibility of parts of Ireland's military & the Defence dept., but they obviously can't do it.

    For my part I don't agree with it, but won't mind much if military is officially wound down as not viable with resultant embarassment to politicians & potential public opposition (given it impies an end to UN peacekeeping missions which I think people like), so long as these jobs get done properly.

    Either way more money will need to be spent and some of it will go on actual "weapons" (f. e.g. am no expert but expect new vessels for likes of Revenue & Customs that won't be in a "navy" per se will need to be fairly capable of protecting themselves and compelling other ships).

    It's not good/healthy to just assume everyone discussing something is dishonest. In turn I or others could assume you make posts like this because for some reason you don't want to see Ireland do those jobs properly & argue against it by saying it is all "militaris[z]ation".

    Ukraine are sadly one of these nations, that still falls into this category. If Russia did in fact commit to a large scale invasion, their old school nationalistic pride would prevent them from backing down from that confrontation...That brute force strong man image, that still infects Putin and nations like Russia... sadly is also present in nations like Ukraine too.

    That is an incredible statement of equivalence between Ukraine and Russia. Why did you work that into your post? It has nothing to do with Ireland's military really?

    We managed to fight off one of the most powerful nations in history, without the need for such infrastructure. Why would we need it now, when there are even fewer threats to our nationhood or sovereignty?...Here in Ireland, we actually fought the smarter war. You're much better off just falling back into those hit-and-run tactics right away when faced with an enemy who is much stronger than you. Taking pride and ego out of the equation.

    No it is the weapon of those with nothing else to use + no allies of note. That is why the British were here in control of the whole island despite not being exactly popular rulers with the locals for hundreds of years. They could even still be in control if they'd been willing to be brutal enough during War of Independence IMO (i.e. use some more scorched earth Cromwell type tactics on Ireland again to put down any insurrection completely) but they were not motivated enough to do that/willing to ignore criticism that would have been heaped on them thankfully.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Considering that Northern Ireland could join the Republic is a realistic possibility, it would be prudent to have a decent military.

    Just ponder the fact that they had approximately 20,000 manpower up there:


    Even if the threat is lesser from the Unionist side than the IRA you still need a total overhaul of our military. You dont want to have to play catch up in that scenario. Of course there is the outside chance it might be worse. Who knows, its all about insurance against unnecessary loss of life, prolonging of a conflict, economic damage (who wanted to visit NI during the troubles?, bomb some multinationals and the Irish economy is toast as they leave in droves).

    Russians aside for a moment, not having a proper defence force in our position is madness.



  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Good god, after a presumably democratic popular vote for unity the last thing we should be doing is sending soldiers in as police men.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    You have to think when NI kick off they have to bring in re-enforcements from the UK both civilian police and military ,

    And the NI police are armed where ours are not for most part bar limited units ,if we are united policing and the military Will have no choice but to change and adapt



  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭Black Noel


    I think an armed citizenry is worth thinking about. The brits and yanks were faced with every other person in Iraq owning a rifle and capable of inflicting casualties.

    The yanks always put great store in their high gun ownership.

    Rather than the state forcing ppl to join up, you could have the state inviting ppl to join up for a few weeks training, perhaps using a pup style form of payment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    You still need a properly equipped and maintained military before can have any kind of national service ,you also have to equip them to the same standard , remember 3 people on boards don't want any kind of military spending ,and the military disbanded .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,924 ✭✭✭Polar101



    With little defense spending, there's no-one to train or organise or arm these civilian/paramilitary troops. To do that would need an increase in defense spending - there is a reason most countries either have a professional army, or universal conscription.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    The next spend for the defense forces is going on new uniforms , were ditching our traditional Irish DPM for MC which what the Americans , British,Danes , Australian and other EU /nato forces are using.

    They Steyr Aug (rifle) badly need updating or completely replaced ,the army got some updates flat top rail and acog sights , but all pretty much limited while the Aug is an ok platform it has its limitations as a bullpup , better systems are available ,

    Mowags are the same alright for Basic troop movements but lack any real offensive and defensive capability ,we could do with modern IFVs instead ,

    Helicopters both armed and scout , medium / heavy lift variants plenty of options available on the market,

    We're not talking squadrons of helicopters a few different variants for different mission sets

    Post edited by Gatling on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    Sounds like you’re writing a shopping list for Airfix kits.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Shao Kahn


    Unfortunately these militaristic types have been listened to by governments and leaders for centuries, which is why the world is effectively in a mexican stand-off with super powers aiming their big impressive nukes at each other, and beating their chests like a bunch of knuckle dragging neanderthals!

    You have people on this thread, who can't even decide why exactly we need greater capabilities with our military forces... but yet they're completely steadfast in their certainty that we need it. Brain dead stuff.

    "We need a basic ability to defend ourselves" ... "But we're not talking about war or invasion" lol

    Well, news flash guys. If you're building up your military to better defend yourself as a deterrent, that means being attacked or invaded. It means potential military engagement with foreign forces.

    Ireland directly engaging with practically anyone with enough military clout to invade another nation, would be suicidal. All that would happen, is we would look really cool like rambo with our flashy toys for a few short weeks until we got flattened by whomever we're fighting. Then if there is anyone left to fight, the real long war would begin just like our struggle with the Brits. (that's the less cool looking reality of war)

    Pointless egotistical nonsense.

    These guys just want us to look cool on international TV, sailing out into the Atlantic to wag our finger at the naughty Russians. They would have us dump billions on defense, just so we could look at bit more "respectable" on the international stage.

    I suppose it shouldn't be all that surprising considering we've slowly turned into this superficial nation. Everything is about "looking the part".

    "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives, and it puts itself into our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    @Shao Kahn

    You have people on this thread, who can't even decide why exactly we need greater capabilities with our military forces... .

    It's been explained to you and others by several posters and yet here you are are again with the silly militaristic types ,

    Names himself after a computer game warrior character

    ,cries about military spending

    Oh the irony



  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭ancientmariner


    There is/was sufficient hardware in the Naval Service to patrol and monitor the Area described by many as the "Bigger Map Of Ireland". The least we can do is electronically monitor the SW area at the Porcupine Trough and try to ascertain the nature of the Russian Exercise. The exercise and the intention to close off an area of the High Seas is contrary to the provisions of UNCLOS which Russia signed and acceded to on 12th March 1997. We could station some ships 20 miles to the north of the area and scan by radar and AIS. The main thing is NOT to move or deploy except to meet the Irish Fleet's needs. In other words don't become guardships for the Russian navy or control IFV's to suit the Russians.

    Some comments are OTT. in not recognising that our waters are crucial to sea lanes from the west which will be threatened mainly by sub-surface craft. The least we could do was to maintain the levels of defence provided by the Corvette era. Being afloat is one thing but being relevant is another. There is a deficit and we add to it by the attrition caused by operational deficiencies in manpower and planning. No normal ship costs a Billion rather a fully outfitted 100m corvette type at 110/120m per ship, and a Support vessel to attend them at sea.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,407 ✭✭✭AyeGer


    Looks like a combination of Irish diplomacy and the threat of disruption by the fishermen changed the Russians minds. They are moving their tests.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Won't mean anything it's not like we have the ability to police them ,the Russians won't change course



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,908 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Yes. Obviously with Ireland being neutral Russia will be expecting Ireland to complain when other countries plan to do likewise.


    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    The same russia recently wrote a strongly worded letter to the UN about the annexation of east Germany when the Berlin wall feel 25 years previously



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    This shows the pointlessness of the ops post, we knew they were coming and they moved when asked

    A great bunch of lads

    A lot making a mountain out of a molehill as usual



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,441 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel


    More likely a calculated decision on Russia's part to move the tests. They gambled we would not fuss and when we did, we fussed a lot. Then, to add to that the French got involved, combined with the possibility of Ireland thinking about NATO, Russia decided it was not worth the hassle. Opportunists behave a lot like that. I would think their Submarines will still do a bit of mischief-making underwater.

    Dan.



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