Ireland's defensive frailty exposed by Russian exercise

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118561381#Comment_118561381

Strong deterrence implies we must improve on our present frail position. Their are bits within our PDF that are good from small arms to modern AFV's armed with 30mm. Our biggest short fall is in Surveillance, target acquisition, and dealing effectively at longer ranges using modern means. Equally ships at sea need a strike capability, good awareness in all dimensions and an effective ASW weapon system. Ships air defence must include CIWS including multi-barrelled options. The Air Corps need to control irish airspace by Interception and co-ordination with National ATC.

Ardillaun

We need to be able to detect incursions by Russian planes and boats, and cyber attacks as well. These are happening to us right now, not in some possible future scenario. On the cyber side, civilian contractors could be doing most of that. Given the lamentable state of our air force and navy, we should probably look at drones as much as possible to make up the shortfall. We can’t really depend on Cork fishermen to defend our territorial waters.

ancientmariner

If we are entering an era of repairing and repurposing our PDF we must look at the whole process of the building blocks of Defence and the planning necessary for a credible Defence. Those overseeing Defence Budgets have the overall responsibility of making sure the PDF is fit for purpose as laid down . There must be an expert body that states the need for a certain capability. This in turn is agreed by the Higher Staffs and the Department sets in motion the means to acquiring the necessary equipment and competence.

Our Current State has to be laid at the door of those with the greater responsibility. The wanton plundering of military lands and closing down of Military units without offsets or functional replacements was conceptually weak. For instance an island that had Coast Defence wrote off the need and destroyed associated main armaments without providing for an alternative such as Coastal radar and mobile strike missile units backed by an armed MPA unit.

A continuation of a benign outlook will bring us to an AID to the Civil Power and ceremonial organisation with some piecemeal provision of overseas cadres and look-see patrols at sea.

The cyber area , as in all countries, is weakened by the technically infected processes in all of our systems including phones, PC's, corporate bugging, spurious pop-up data. We must have clean user only two way flow of data not available to an overlooking entity, especially on command and weapon circuits.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563395#Comment_118563395

Some might be in favour of just arming the Cork fishermen as a low cost option?

ancientmariner

In order to re-establish our surveillance capability of 1984 and restore an alternative deck for single ship helicopters, I would propose to refit P31 to extend operation life for another 10 years. Check and repair hull integrity. Repair and restore full stabilisation of hull. Remove crane on Flight deck and additional fittings on the F.deck as necessary. Extend flight deck aft by 1 metre or remark the deck to suit land on of current typical ship borne helicopters. Fit auto controlled 30mm guns with an associated Martlet type missile system in lieu of 20mm guns. Carry a larger drone within the hangar for required ship surveillance /defence tasks. Re-establish her sonar capability.

Refit all P60's with air/ surface radars and also auto controlled 30mm with associated missile systems. Evaluate the fitting of an ASW system including a weapon, perhaps containerised.

The Air Corps to provide target towing facilities to allow evaluation of all Naval ships AA capabilities.

ancientmariner

As regards recruiting and retention we must do two things. Make the Services entry system a traditional system with the only requirements to be fit, vetted by the local gardai, a stipulated referee, be of age, and be willing to join. All recruits subject to final approval. No interview boards except for the direct entries for specific trades and Officer cadet candidates.

Every person enlisting must have an open career channel subject to usual Military approvals. Those willing and suitable to extend must be retained.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118570634#Comment_118570634

The ship is nigh on four decades old, service in the North Atlantic has a habit of beating up on ship lifespans, and she hasn't been to sea in three years. I suspect the only reason she hasn't been paid off is political. An equivalent Atlantic navy ship might be the Spanish Descubiertas, about the same tonnage and age. They're being withdrawn, only two are left of 6. The French A69s also of similar age and size are all going to be gone in four years, and they had the advantage of spending some of their careers in the much less wearing Med.

The amount of cost inherent in performing such a capabilities upgrade would be a case of throwing good money at a bad situation. Besides, the Air Corps doesn't have any nautical helicopters any more, I don't know if AW139s can even be equipped with Harpoon landing systems.

ancientmariner

In other circumstances you are right. However we hastily allowed a ship with all the equipment needed for surveillance in all dimensions at sea, and full air capability to sink below it's designed function. The radar had a designed range of about 75miles on a 2m squared target and further in Secondary mode. We picked up wide bodied jets at 120 miles. Having the options restored until new tonnage arrives is above cost but certainly cheaper than a hiatus of capability when sorely needed. The deck options are, restore as is, but not the hangar except for drones. Ignore for now the harpoon grid and use a suitably adapted deck net system. perhaps lengthen the flight deck and get rid of the extra deck crane. Recalibrate the Glide slope indicator for the new after edge deck clearances. We had a Gazelle on board with no harpoon. He shut down for lunch and got started again for departure. In the overall we must learn not to dispose of assets for convenience rather maintain and train at any cost.

In WW11 the US dug up WW1 destroyers that many were glad to have to meet escort needs.

Manic Moran

I'm sure the Gazelle, which is a pretty small aircraft, landed in reasonably good weather. I mean, sure an Aer Corps EC-135 can probably do the same thing, but to what end?

This thread may be of interest to you, we're on Eithne right now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2056160359/3-new-navy-vessels-for-irish-naval-service

ancientmariner

These vessels were the delivered P60 series all at 90metre length. Bigger ships but not sure if they hit the need of matching presence with a relevant contribution to Defence. At some stage we need to match the wartime ability of escort vessels with an up-to-date version to include AD and ASW. Every theatre ashore and afloat needs SHORAD and HIMAD ability to defend your fleet and all shore based assets.

SHORAD = Short Range Air Defence. HIMAD= High to Medium Air defence. The US turned over their CDA to AD and have continually updated it's capability so much so that 59% of it's assets are deployed overseas to Defend strategic points. We binned CDA, not sure about the old AA Btty's, and have a lot of thinking and planning to do.

Manic Moran

Ah, you missed the point of the linked thread. It started with the P60s several years ago, and has turned into a general "Current Naval service equipment needs thread"

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118592569#Comment_118592569

Sorry about that. Your point about the Gazelle the A/C was sniffing around off Wicklow Greystones and requested permission to hover. We took him under FDO control and he landed with his skis firmly on deck. The major asset in a deck is that it can be a second alternative deck for any helo that will fit. Most maritime helos could probably land crossdeck facing port or starboard. It's also a vertrep asset and a HIFER asset for fuelling.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118524908#Comment_118524908

I think we need to look seriously at our stance on neutrality and IMHO look past that. I would not like to see us join NATO but clearly our economic and political future lies within the EU so I would like to see us become part of the on going discussions within the EU on the formation of some kind of EU defense force in the sense that we would be part of such forces ourselves. Given we are as small a country as we are it might be better for us to focus on a niche role within that context.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

Lads I've been standing at the coastline for the past two weeks with a set of binoculars and I still haven't seen any sign of a Russian invasion. Are ye sure we need to invest to heavily in our military? :D :D :D

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118633012#Comment_118633012

Yes ,yes we do and it's looking likely we will be spending more 🔫

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118633012#Comment_118633012

Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they aren't there! A sub could be out there and wouldn't be visible. Anyway the distance to the horizon at sea level is only 3 miles or so.

Turns out all you need are javelins, stingers, nlaws, some drones, good intelligence and a decent anti air capabilities.

Making it next to impossible to anyone to invade Ireland is completely within budget.

No excuses.

vriesmays

How exactly will Ireland ban Russian aircraft from our airspace. What happens if they do enter. Michael Martin to paint his face blue and yellow.

nigeldaniel

For the imidate time, I would be inclining to do a deal with France to protect our airspace. France could station a number of aircraft in Shannon to deal with Russian aircraft threatening our airspace. If we keep allowing the UK to do that work for us the Russians will just deliberately look to buz our airspace or even inter it just to bate the UK. They are less likely to do that with French jets. I think it could be called diplomacy. Russia right now is just baying for someone to put it to them so that can start more wars on any front. It's a defining legacy of Putin that he has in fact lost his mind and the Russian people don't care.

Like it or not our lack of defence is down to our own ignorance of modern hybrid war times.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118702644#Comment_118702644

What will any European country do if Russian civilian aircraft enter their airspace? They certainly won't be shooting them down.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118704110#Comment_118704110

Leave them out of the air traffic control management system. Any civilian airline would not chance flying. They could send up planes and guide them down.

I see that Irish planes leased to Russia are being recalled (probably because they won't be able to get paid for them!)