Ireland's defensive frailty exposed by Russian exercise

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547096#Comment_118547096

Almost smiled 🛥️

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547142#Comment_118547142

Maybe. say that the Russian fleet took the World by surprise and landed a small but well equipped force on our west coast (3-6,000) air cover, missiles, attack helicopters etc.

Still more likely to be the UK in certain scenarios (Dictatorship etc.) no long supply lines. They could justify it like Churchill did by saying that it was needed to defent the UK against using us as a base against them.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547204#Comment_118547204

Not compared to the Abrams one the USA has

https://twitter.com/terror_alarm/status/1487040942896988160

Black Noel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547248#Comment_118547248

Not compared to any tank 😂

Gatling

Russian tanks in eastern Ukraine

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118546844#Comment_118546844

Both had serious plans. lol

The Nazis could have bombed us back to the stone age anytime they wished, if they felt we were important to the UK. The reality is, we were already close to being in the stone age anyway... so the ordinance would have been a complete waste.

We're a bit more advanced these days, of course, but our reality as a nation is still pretty much the same as back then. We're not going to be on anyone's radar, because we simply don't matter enough.

I know that hurts a few people's pride around here. But honestly, it's actually a really great thing.

And what does it even mean to have adequate defensive capabilities anyway? What, so you can take thousands more in casualties and lose expensive pieces of military hard wear... and then still inevitably lose against a far more powerful nation anyway?

If Ireland had some world class tanks and artillery when we were fighting the Brits, it would have made feck all difference to that war. The only way to fight against a much larger nation, is hit and run tactics. Guerrilla warfare. Any other strategy would simply lead to us being massacred out in the open. And that is exactly what we would do, if we were ever attacked by someone like the Russians. So investing in anything other than small arms and basic IED's would be a complete waste of money.

Much better to invest in world class diplomacy and building excellent relationships with our neighbors and allies around the world. Which btw is one area where we are actually ahead of someone like the Russians right now.

Gatling

Were too small to be on anybody's radar,

So we don't need to spend money on defense,

Don't know what worse generation snowflake or generation someone else will come and save us ..

We've gone from being called the fighting Irish to the whiney Irish

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547368#Comment_118547368

Reminds me of this

https://twitter.com/Tim_jbo/status/1395713167779516416

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547425#Comment_118547425

But in the real world the woke pronouns army will beat the other crowd every single time

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547152#Comment_118547152

That seems to go down the slippery slope argument really quickly. Most other neutral countries which have that capability seem to have manage to avoid succumbing to such tempting expeditions. Are you saying that Ireland has not the same political self discipline as Switzerland or Sweden?

So what would the IAA do if there were an EU or Enviro summit occurring in Ireland, and their shiny new military grade radar identifies an unknown air contact heading in the vicinity of that august group of personages, some of whom have more capable and determined enemies than Michael D does? Call out the IAA interceptor? Can the DF even stop a small drone with a hand grenade?

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547368#Comment_118547368

You haven’t stopped whining for days.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547565#Comment_118547565

Obviously you read your own qwerty diarrhoea

Yellow_Fern

A lot of people here are emphatic that we should not be spending on the defence forces. They might not be aware the navy boards hundreds of vessels at sea every year, plays a huge role fighting smuggling, an air ambulance, and a surveillance and observation service for the Irish Coast Guard. It hasn't been able to perform these roles properly and we have had to bring EU boats to help. They also might not be aware that we are under sustained espionage from countries such as China, for example China is targeting retired Irish soldiers with bribes. We don't need F16s but we should beef up the navy, intelligence, buy some drones and the air corp improvements.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chinese-spies-tried-to-buy-defence-forces-security-secrets-w7hm2hwf8

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547607#Comment_118547607

Too busy trying to shout down any one who thinks we should already have the equipment,

For some reason several posters keep bringing up invasion ......

techman1

The Russians have always had very high developed submarine and space tech. It’s hardly beyond their capabilities. You’re talking about a country that has successfully landed probes on the surface of Venus. 

Remember the Kursk disaster way back in 2000 when one of their new generation nuclear submarines sunk in the Barents sea. They didn't have any way of accessing the crew in the submarine and rescuing them. Eventually after a storm of protests from the families they accepted Norwegian and British help, it was the Norwegian and British divers that opened the hatch of the Kursk to find all the crew dead. However the Russians delayed asking for help for seven days, it was very early in Putins leadership and he looked very vulnerable and unsure at that time. His leadership was almost over before it started

Polar101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547607#Comment_118547607

Yeah, military has some use during peacetime as well, that's why I don't think the argument that any money spent of defense is wasted if there's no war is very good. There is some ground between "full pacifism" and "anti-Russian invasion" level spending.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547554#Comment_118547554

Class, a hypothetical situation. Well I hope that on the off-chance a drone flying assassin tries to “take out” the great and the good during this imaginary scenario, that a Defence Forces soldier in a €500 beret jumps out to take the bullet while going “ahhhh.”

I don’t deal with fantasies. In the real world Ireland won’t get invaded and the King of Constantinople won’t be assassinated while unwrapping a Ferrero Rocher with Michael D.

Let the aviation authorities worry about plane crashes, let the foreign dignitaries worry about their own security if they’re at risk of getting Jason Bourne’d, and let’s not pretend we need a big kick ass army because we don’t.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547706#Comment_118547706

It is the job of the DF to engage in such hypotheticals, as they are realistic.

If such things were totally unrealistic, why did the Irish government spend so much money deploying the Irish military, complete with surface to air missiles (not that Ireland has many of them) to provide security for the visits of people like the President or the Queen? Even Trump cost the taxpayer $10mn for his unofficial visit. Air security was provided by the US Air Force as Ireland had (and still has) no such capability.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/unprecedented-security-plan-in-place-for-obama-and-queen-26714707.html

Your mockery of the real-world requirements but undermines your understanding of the everyday purpose of the Defense Forces.

let the foreign dignitaries worry about their own security if they’re at risk of getting Jason Bourne’d, and let’s not pretend we need a big kick ass army because we don’t.

Do you want foreign nations to determine whether or not to shoot down aircraft in Irish airspace? Do you travel? Do you expect the police forces in those countries to create a safe environment for you, or would you expect the Gardai to do it, because it's your decision to go into another jurisdiction?

Black Noel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547295#Comment_118547295

The Ukrainians probably use the same types.

saabsaab

It is no coinsidence that the Russians have a fleet off our (the EU) coast. It must be related to their plans for the Ukraine in some form or other. Would Russia threaten Shannon if the US started sending troops/equipment to the Ukraine?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548616#Comment_118548616

It's a possibility id imagine cyber warfare and electronic interference could come into play ,both would give the Russians deniability and put it down to others.

Some on here would lap it up and blame the CIA trying to make Uncle vladi look bad.

Similarly when the Russians fleet came through Scandinavia military grade drones were spotted over Stockholm and several sensitive locations around Sweden

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548083#Comment_118548083

But these are Russians after entering ukraine,lots of other examples

Micko67

The way I see it, times up for the Irish government in kicking the can down the road in its underinvestment of the Defence Forces, it’s hand will be forced by the us,eu &uk. They won’t care if Ireland are in nato or not and will coerce economically if they won’t step in with investment as they will say they can’t protect western economic infrastructure.

the Irish government will use the next release of the defence paper as the catalyst for investment and say it’s not a result of the above powers.

I’d expect to see a sizeable investment in the defence forces in order to monitor and harass any aircraft or ships military or otherwise operating in or transiting the Irish EEZ.

Anyone who thinks it’s a black and white situation in that we either can’t stop foreign powers at all so why bother or we have the capability to go toe to toe with them is not living in the real world.

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118540904#Comment_118540904

How exactly can Europe encircle Russia?

We’re allowing the Russians, specifically Putin and his mob, to set their own deranged agenda here. The Soviet Union disappeared 30 years ago. It should be Russia trying to join NATO, and the EU for that matter. Why can’t Russia be a normal country like Germany or Canada? And why are most people in Russia still so poor despite the incredible scientific and technological achievements of that country in the past? The answer lies in a dreadful, corrupt government that steals from its own and seeks to terrorize its neighbours.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547818#Comment_118547818

What aircraft? None of this is happening except in your head. The guards following me as I travel abroad? Talk some sense good man.

You mentioned Ireland paying €10million to host Trump, that’s several orders of magnitude less than the €1billion increase you originally suggested. You’re suggesting we should invest billions of euros purely to host war criminals and sex pests on jollies every few years.

If the likes of Trump, Biden, Clinton, Bush et al want to visit Ireland then they can do it on their own dime, or it’s at the very least not worth investing billions of euros annually into the Defence Forces in case a fanciful London Has Fallen scenario might happen. Life isn’t like the movies.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118547818#Comment_118547818

All the arguments I've seen here (from yourself and others) for building up the scope and capabilities of our military, don't actually involve military operations.

Most of you are now going to great pains to distance yourself from the actual primary reason for military organizations to even exist - which is traditional military deployments / operations.

You are promoting the civilian use and benefits of the armed forces. The reason you have switched focus, is because you know how deeply unpopular war and militarization of a country is among the average joe and jane on the streets. You can't get these people on board if you promoted the militaristic rhetoric you'd prefer to use.

But the reality is, if we're talking about the civilian benefits of the armed forces... you'd be far better off just funding those civilian institutions rather than re-purposing your armed forces for such tasks.

I can completely understand nations that have a historical need to maintain a sizable military, using their skills and capabilities in everyday civilian duties. It makes perfect sense to give these men/women and expensive equipment something useful to do in everyday life outside of traditional military operations.

Some nations have no choice in the matter. Lets take Israel for example: Because of their everyday reality, and the fact that most of the neighboring nations are hostile towards them, they have no choice except to spend obscene amounts of money on their military "just in case" something huge kicks off and someone tries to wipe them out.

Ireland is actually very fortunate in that we don't really have any such enemies. And even when we were actively fighting the largest empire in human history right on our doorstep, we still had no need for a huge bloated military with expensive hard wear etc as it would have been fairly useless for the manner in which we chose to fight the Brits. We would have easily lost a traditional war against Britain.

So, you can see how it's very hard to convince your average Irish person of the merits behind dumping significant expenditure on our defense forces. We managed to fight off one of the most powerful nations in history, without the need for such infrastructure. Why would we need it now, when there are even fewer threats to our nationhood or sovereignty?

Any of the civilian areas you are highlighting, can be much more adequately served by funding the appropriate civilian institutions - gardai, coast guard etc etc.

There is a huge amount of ego and nationalistic pride wrapped up in nations that heavily fund their military's. This is very much a hangover from previous generations, when overt military symbolism was one of the best ways to promote national strength and unity.

Ukraine are sadly one of these nations, that still falls into this category. If Russia did in fact commit to a large scale invasion, their old school nationalistic pride would prevent them from backing down from that confrontation. The result, would mean initially they will face down the Russians in a traditional head-to-head military campaign... sustaining catastrophic loses to men and equipment. Before eventually falling back into a guerrilla warfare style like we did with the Brits.

That brute force strong man image, that still infects Putin and nations like Russia... sadly is also present in nations like Ukraine too.

Here in Ireland, we actually fought the smarter war. You're much better off just falling back into those hit-and-run tactics right away when faced with an enemy who is much stronger than you. Taking pride and ego out of the equation.

I've had these types of discussions with many of my eastern european friends over the years. And even though most do tend to agree, it's very hard to detach from this mindset. It's a big part of who they are. We are actually lucky here in Ireland, as we don't really have the same hangups and militaristic mindset.

Building up our military would be mostly about ego and vanity, nationalistic pride. Not actually about creating an adequate defense of our Island. And certainly not about civilian everyday usefulness.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118543071#Comment_118543071

Back to this.

I was watching The Last Leg on Channel 4 last night and the host Adam Hills (Australian) made a joke to Sandi Toksvig (Danish originally) that Denmark had sent both its planes to help Ukraine.

Having a flight of F16s with F35s ordered and the ability to deploy them to a potential front line wouldn't stop those that think they are superior from laughing.

XsApollo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549170#Comment_118549170

Hold on, Adam hills might laugh at us?

We better Breakout out the tissues and chequebook.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549158#Comment_118549158

You say that 'Any of the civilian areas you are highlighting, can be much more adequately served by funding the appropriate civilian institutions - gardai, coast guard etc etc', but many of these non war tasks have no civilisation institution. Coast guards are unarmed and their rescue boats top out at 27 tonnes, while you have illegal fishing boats up to 14055 tonnes with armed illegal fisherman. What about cartel boats. The Air Corps fixed wing craft provide an important job in this respect which the Coast Guard lacks. You absolutely cannot stop these guys with coastguards in rigs and rescue boats. I have no idea why you think coast guards are cheaper. All of these workers are public servants with wages at relatively similar levels. The Gardaí are not equipped to do rescue missions in Afghanistan or to provide high level security for civil unrest or foreign dignitaries. Our navy has been singled out for criticism by the European Commission for not being strong enough to enforce EU fishing policy.

Black Noel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548856#Comment_118548856

There's a lot of deception and propaganda in war and international relations 👍