Ireland's defensive frailty exposed by Russian exercise

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553831#Comment_118553831

Your being silly now and clearly not tolerant of differing opinions or being reminded of the two sides of History 🙄

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553678#Comment_118553678

And where are you going to get this 3 billion a year? Magic money tree's in your back garden? No Irish person with common sense will want us to increase taxes for military defence when we're already in debt and have a housing crisis.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553870#Comment_118553870

Ireland occupies a strategically important geographical position. It's not only a question of dealing with fisheries and smugglers. The cables linking Europe with North America are a good example of Ireland's own responsibility to it's neighbours.

We should at least have the capability to monitor, aquire and send intelligence to our neighbours on any foreign power operating within our economic zone.

We can't even do that.

In 1936 the world believed just as they do now that war in Europe was absurd, a total impossibility. 4 years later a maniacal force was tearing across the continent.

That can happen again and if that time comes the country is better off having something tangible to offer as deterrent rather than nothing at all.

If you have nothing at all your neighbours decide your policy, not you.

Therefore we are not neutral.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553875#Comment_118553875

It's called whataboutry.

Murica did this and murica did that,

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553960#Comment_118553960

You might learn something from the week in politics , RTE 1, on now and discussing this matter now

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553908#Comment_118553908

Strategically important to whom exactly 🤔 serious question , as I've said when and if we are ever invaded , we'll have far more to concern ourselves with and let's be honest, no amount of expenditure could stop an invasion by a far bigger and better equipped nation.

We are officially and legally Neutral but I do accept your points overall .

I'm all for a properly funded and managed "Patrol Service" for the reasons I've outlined, we've absolutely no business spending vast sums on equipment we'll likely , never, ever get to use.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553896#Comment_118553896

Do you realise how much we spend on defense in this country ,the average is €800million which about half of that figure goes on pensions and wages,

So the defense forces are expected to defend our airspace , waters and country on a budget of 400 million, we spend over 1billion per annum on foreign overseas aid ,we spend close to 300 million per year housing asylum seekers many who are bogus and more economic migrants than anything else , hundreds of millions go on homelessness, we've have more key workers and support workers than we have people living on the streets..

Housing has massively increased over the last few years and Is ramping up year on year going by the number of houses and apartments going up across the country ,

Nobody is demanding hundreds of billions per year be spent on defense , 2-3 billion is quite affordable, for an economy out size ,

We see countries with similar population and GDP spending 3-6 billion on defense and yet we're giving 400 million and people are still complaining,. we've had posters demanding the disbandment of the defense forces all together

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554025#Comment_118554025

€800m is grand so, there's no need to spend any more. Theirs no chance of Ireland been invaded and sure if we were we wouldn't have a hope of defending ourselves anyway. Just because we waste money on other stuff doesn't mean it's also ok to waste money on defence

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554290#Comment_118554290

Precisely 😏

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554290#Comment_118554290

Up to last week,the government was actively attempting to slash our search and rescue helicoptors from 4 to 3,

Its perplexing as to why,this is privatised and isnt under remit of the air corps as afaik raf do it in uk??

Unless state is going to buy nuclear weapons,any/all talk of defending againest invasion is utterly pointless unless you have a million plus bodies to throw at a dogfight againest an enemy who deosnt have access to nuclear weapons

UK search and rescue is at least partially privatised.

Pussyhands

I see Irish Twitter is getting erections over some yank called Stevie Van Zandt or something admiring the irish fisherman. What is it about the irish and our inferiority complex? Any time foreigners mention us or acknowledge we exist we have to make a thing of it.

You see it on reddit any time some irish good news story reaches the front page. You can see the proud grin in all the comments.

Same thing with the Palestine situation. Irish people know they use Ireland as an example so the irish have to big up palestine to make the Irish feel good about themselves and to not let foreigners down.

Likewise with Conor McGregor. Everyone is embarrassed of him so any time there's a story about him it's full of comments saying "everyone in Ireland hates him and he doesn't represent us!!!" just so foreigners don't think bad of us.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554290#Comment_118554290

What's with the "Stupid" obsession with with us getting invaded for forks sake nobody said we're getting invaded.

Aircraft Carriers , stealth bombers , Yada yada yada,

The only ones talking about it are ding bats

Gile_na_gile

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548979#Comment_118548979

Our opinions are not mutually exclusive, and I agree that it is a big frustration that Russia did not normalise into a normal amicable partner like our other European neighbours from behind the former Iron Curtain. Putin's argument is that:

1) NATO follows a US-led policy of Russian encirclement even though the USSR is over and there was an earlier gentleman's agreement not to expand it to Russia's border. Hence, Finland's careful balancing of interests, for example.

2) The US and allies, either with or through NATO, have conducted regime change operations in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya, which has arguably created failed states. Now this is no longer true of Iraq, and the Afghanistan occupation was understandable after 9/11, but the the thought is that morals are bent to fit Western ideals (hence Mujahideen, sponsorship of Islamist rebels in Syria, alliance with Saudi Arabia, etc.).

Whereas I can understand and accept that the small Baltic states join NATO, it is not the same for Ukraine, where the population is split between nationalists and pro-Russians on an E-W basis. If they join NATO, the Russians will annex the Donbass and militarise the new frontier. It is that simple.

olestoepoke

Spending millions on defence which let's be honest chances are well never use while there are far more pressing issues in this country would be madness. Have we all forgotten about the state of our healthcare system. A two tier system where poorer and most working class people have to wait months or even years to see a consultant which for some is a death sentence. What about our housing/homeless crisis? But oh yeah let's spunk millions on a radar system etc. It's the equivalent of doing up the front of your house whilst the inside falls apart. Or getting new hi-tec security system for your house when the kitchen and bathroom are falling apart.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554604#Comment_118554604

But we know there was no agreement that nato wouldn't expand East, it was never mentioned bar a single meeting it wasn't agreed on ,no binding agreement or treaties .

We also know Nato are not surrounding or have surrounded Russia ,a quick look at google maps ends that notion,

Nato didn't go in to Afghanistan to change the regime , Afghanistan was being ruled by a death cult ,non elected , not recognised as a legitimate government ,and the only reason why Nato were there in the first place was Russias invasion and massacre of the then government . before burning the country to the ground ,all before nato involvement ,

Libya was an uprising Gaddafi tried to quash with his military and foreign mercenaries as the country went into full civil war ,yes nato carried out limited strikes but Gaddafi was toppled by Libyans ,but someone needs to explain what Russian forces are currently doing in Libya trying to depose the now recognised government .

Ukraine is not as divided as people are claiming pretty much repeating russian propaganda , nationalist ,the far right threats of genocide against the Russian population it's all bullshit , how many times do the Ukrainian people have to stand up and say we are ukraine and not Russia they want what what's their absolute right ,to choose their destiny as a country ,we know they Don't want to be Russian .

They are Ukrainian and proud they want democracy, reforms,and close relationships with Europe

It's not putins choice

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554640#Comment_118554640

The stability of nations and their ability to police their own existence and maintain alliances and their place in the world is the hallmark of a credible dependable nation. Because the billions we spend on social, medical, educational and other needs is not enough, all of that would be problematic if our territory had to be taken over for the common interest in a future or imminent conflict.

Our country is constrained by unfinished history and an armed underground of quasi-military and serious international criminal elements. Nature abhors a vacuum. If we do not provide for defence we could lose the right of franchise and/or a stable State. Instances like the Claudia are a fact and our ability to deal with it was thankfully a fact. The problems elsewhere in our care systems may not be lack of money and more to do with how systems are run and controlled.

Sudden Valley

I think if we beefed up the Irish defence forces they would still be not used for our defence, they would just be used to increase out involvement in UN peacekeeping in other countries or we would be sent to the Ukraine Russian border. So basically subsidising other countries defences. We owe alot of money, let's try to work in reducing that.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118555004#Comment_118555004

Peacekeeping is an expensive operation and we're already struggling to find volunteers to send on peace keeping over seas ,we barely have the right equipment to do the job , and those who volunteer who have families then need social welfare to step in and keep their families with food on the table ,

It's utterly demoralising for our defense forces.

We should be deployed to ukraine it makes sense, but Russia has blocked any such talk or discussion at the UN.

Maybe the European army is the way forward but even at that we would need to invest in the defense forces and their basic abilities,

Again we're not talking hundreds of billions of euros a year , but 2-3 billion would make a huge difference to our defense forces .

Just to show the nationals childrens hospital is heading to a 2+ billion Bill before it's even completed , thats 5 times the budget for the defense forces after wages and pensions are taken out,

We spend hundreds of millions on vanity projects , cycle lanes ,metros but god forbid we spend on defense ,

Our welfare budget is 250 + billion over the next 10 years hundreds of millions on foreign overseas aid , hundreds of millions on homelessness and nothing is changing or improving

,were not a poor country just poorly managed

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554640#Comment_118554640

The state of the Irish healthcare system is the result of an expenditure over 20 times that which is spent on defense. Do you think that begrudging the defense budget the equivalent of 5% of the healthcare budget so that it can adequately do its peacetime roles is going to make any significant difference to the nation's overall healthcare/homelessness/whatever crisis? I'm not even suggesting the money be taken from the healthcare budget, just that the money isn't a massive amount.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553896#Comment_118553896

Can you name a country that isn't in debt?

None of the usual stuff, heathcare housing transport, has anything to do with money in Ireland.

We spend too much money on these things.

The problem is mis-management primarily.

bob mcbob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553870#Comment_118553870

Why is there all the focus on invasion? Have you heard of hybrid warfare - here is a definition from wiki

Hybrid warfare is warfare with the following aspects:

• A non-standard, complex, and fluid adversary. A hybrid adversary can be state or non-state. For example, in the Israel–Hezbollah War of 2006 and the Syrian Civil War, the main adversaries are non-state entities within the state system. The non-state actors can act as proxies for countries but have independent agendas as well. For example, Iran is a sponsor of Hezbollah, but it was Hezbollah's, not Iran's, agenda that resulted in the kidnapping of Israeli troops that led to the Israel–Hezbollah War. On the other hand, Russian involvement in Ukraine can be described as a traditional state actor waging a hybrid war (in addition to using a local hybrid proxy) although Russia denies involvement in the Ukraine conflict.[12][13][14]
• A hybrid adversary uses a combination of conventional and irregular methods. Methods and tactics may include conventional capabilities, irregular tactics, irregular formations, diplomacy, politics, terrorist acts, indiscriminate violence, and criminal activity. A hybrid adversary may also use clandestine actions to avoid attribution or retribution. The methods are used simultaneously across the spectrum of conflict with a unified strategy. A current example is the Islamic State's transnational aspirations, blended tactics, structured formations, and cruel use of terrorism as part of its arsenal.[11][12][14][15][16][17]
• A hybrid adversary is flexible and adapts quickly. For example, the Islamic State's response to the US aerial bombing campaign was a quick reduction of the use of checkpoints, of large convoys, and of cellphones. Militants also dispersed among the civilian population. Civilian collateral damage from airstrikes can be used as an effective recruiting tool.[12][18]
• A hybrid adversary uses advanced weapons systems and other disruptive technologies. Such weapons can be now bought at bargain prices.[19][20] Moreover, other novel technologies are being adapted to the battlefield such as cellular networks. In 2006 Hezbollah was armed with high-tech weaponry, such as precision guided missiles, which nation-states typically use. Hezbollah forces shot down Israeli helicopters, severely damaged a patrol boat with a cruise missile, and destroyed heavily-armored tanks by firing guided missiles from hidden bunkers. It also used aerial drones to gather intelligence, communicated with encrypted cellphones, and watched Israeli troop movements with thermal night-vision equipment.[13][14]
• Use of mass communication for propaganda. The growth of mass communication networks offers powerful propaganda and recruiting tools.[11][17] The use of fake-news websites to spread false stories is a possible element of hybrid warfare.[21][22]
• A hybrid war takes place on three distinct battlefields. They are the conventional battlefield, the indigenous population of the conflict zone, and the international community.[dubious – discuss][15][23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_warfare

So let's be clear, Ireland has few capabilities to address some of these threats. If you think that Ireland is not at threat, because of neutrality, then you are seriously deluded.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118555350#Comment_118555350

Mother of God, that must have been exhausting ( your post) , it would seem the discussion now going from farce to fiction 🙄, Hybrid warfare 🙄 WTF , Simon Coveney will be shaking in his boots 🤣

Thank god we've the fishing community to sort out any Hybrid attacks and shenanigans

We can agree on one thing, Deluded

bob mcbob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118555436#Comment_118555436

Significantly, a draft of the commission’s report is understood to contain an admission from the Defence Forces that the army’s own assessment is that it “is not equipped, postured or realistically prepared to conduct a meaningful defence of the State against a full spectrum force for any sustained period”.

The report, which is due to be finalised and sent to Foreign Affairs and Defence Minister Simon Coveney this week, will find that Ireland can expect to face a growing risk of becoming a target of hybrid aggression, either against the country itself or against the EU as a whole.

Apparently the fiction of hybrid warfare is being taken very seriously.

Maybe you should educate yourself about it.

Gatling

@bob mcbob and this is what we have to deal with .....

Hybrid warfare ehhhhhhh does mean that we to have a charging station ⛽,

☝️

techman1

One of the big arguments for not spending and slowly winding down the army (which is essentially also the government position for years) is because we live in a relatively benign part of the world and have big brother the UK and the US to do all that big stuff for us.

Irish popular culture is all about our fights with the Brits, our fierce independence from Britain and the distinction between Irish and British culture. We hate it when foreigners mistake us for British and so on. Yet when the big boys are out prowling we run behind Mother Britain's skirt and then when the danger has passed we shout a few insults after them like a little child. This calls into question Ireland's whole raison d'etre as an independent country, we are like feckless teenagers that are still living under their parent's roof and spending all their money on drink and girls.

Look at Denmark a country of similar population to Ireland sending three fighter jets and personel to Lithuania. Remember when Boris Yeltsin came to Shannon and he stayed on the plane asleep , he wouldn't have done that if he was arriving in France Uk or Portugal, we were just not important enough

Kermit.de.frog

Good to see Coveney indicating changes will be coming to enhance the defence forces

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40796643.html

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118556106#Comment_118556106

It's about time they got off their holes and did something for the defense forces as a whole.

On the shopping list

Radar

Boats.

Jets

Helicopters

Armour.

Sounds familiar for some reason I only Hope its not kicked down the road to 2030s or 40s

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118555678#Comment_118555678

In 1984 we built a ship described as a Helicopter Patrol Vessel capable of operating a helicopter, twin engines, two pilots, and capable of international flight day or night. The ship had a hanger with full firefighting system internally and externally for the flight deck. The ship was classified HOSTAC Level 1 and included Start-up system for the helicopter plus a 10 tonne heli- fuel tank. The ship had a helicopter handling system for moving the aircraft in and out of the hangar and an XY crane system for aircraft maintenance with associated workshops and tools.

The ships equipment included a DA05 tracking radar in primary and secondary mode with raw radar range for aircraft up to 75nm on primary and secondary range with transponder in the order of 100 nm plus. All info for this radar and the ships main navigation radars were fed to a screen on the captains table in the ops room. This ops room included a PMS 26 Plessey Sonar for UW search in active and passive mode. Gun ranges were provided by a laser range finder and Helicopter control was provided for on the ops room radars. The ship had a stabilised Horizon Bar for day/night landings.

The ship could fuel any fitted helicopter in flight by hover aft and did so on trial for an RAF Seaking.

It is not unusual in some navies to maintain a ships assets despite age or a reluctance by some to implement full cabability. Assets maintained are always there to be used.

Strumms

Total direct costs of overseas peace support operations to the Irish taxpayers were €53.1 in 2018…

Approximately 540 million per decade of taxpayers money gone, to supposedly make the world a safer and better place, to fix problems not of our making… in those countries. Do we expect others will come to OUR aid when shiît hits the fan ?

if we have that sort of cash to be throwing at others thousands of miles away yet haven’t got a single aircraft capable of defending our airspace ? That’s a joke.

we’ve been caught off guard… fail to prepare, prepare to fail.