Ireland's defensive frailty exposed by Russian exercise

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552678#Comment_118552678

That's right, it will be interesting to see how it works out.

Micko67

@CGI_Livia_Soprano

What would would you say “thanks for all the foreign direct investment, pharmaceutical, micro processor plants, data centres and jobs but if you thinks we are going to monitor any threats against them including the sea lanes to get the products out you can stick it where the Sun don’t shine”??

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549158#Comment_118549158

I've had these types of discussions with many of my eastern european friends over the years. And even though most do tend to agree, it's very hard to detach from this mindset. It's a big part of who they are. We are actually lucky here in Ireland, as we don't really have the same hangups and militaristic mindset.

This is a bit ironic. You have the mindset you have only because (a) Ireland has the good fortune to be surrounded by deep salt water and (b) the relative benevolence of the Brits in the 19th and 20th centuries. Our little flying columns would have only impelled Nazi Germany, China, Japan or Bolshevik Russia to slaughter our population by the townload had any of them been the occupying power back in the day.

Living on a flat plain bereft of natural barriers as the people of eastern Germany, Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, et al. do changes the mindset dramatically, very understandably so.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552966#Comment_118552966

No I don’t think the Defence Forces should function as a private security firm for multinationals.

Dempo1

I've been watching this Thread with bemusement. This has been blown out of all proportions (No Pun intended)

Naval exercises occur off the Irish coast regularly, it would seem to me the only question was the precise location, slightly within the EEZ, I suspect more of an error on the Russians behalf and only required a move away from the location by a few miles.

There's barely a whisper when American or Russian Submarines are spotted off the coast of Donegal or for that matter Flotillas from both nations passing by. Some will argue that's because they are Allies, I say we are supposed to be neutral and by default allies doesn't come into it. What about the free for all access of American Soldiers in and out of Shannon, the hypocrisy is breathtaking.

Our Navy is a Defence force in name only and is in essence a patrol service with a limit rescue and humanitarian remit. Some will argue it needs to be strengthened, I say why, unless as a nation we are prepared to spend Billions, its utterly pointless. One Aircraft Carrier or Nuclear submarine from American / Russian Navy's cost is many, many, many multiples of our entire defence budget over decades.

I see mention of Russians shooting down Civilian planes, not a mention of the Americans shooting down an Iranian civilian passenger aeroplane during the Iran/Iraq war. Talk of the first land war on European continent since World War 2 is utter nonsense, there's the Bosnia /Serb war many seem to have forgotten and NATO stood idly by for almost 9 years allowing atrocities continue.

The Hysterics over this on the Live Line Program all last week, whilst entirely amusing and ill informed was bizzare, no Doubt Joe Duffy will take credit for the resolution, his distain and contempt for all things Russia was extraordinary, there was even talk of Russian submarines in cork Harbour back in the 60's 🙄

There is no defensive frailty, there is no threat from the Russians or any nation, yes there's a wind up of Nato and like it or Not, Putin has and contues to play a blinder, he's taking the Pee and loving every minute of it.

The Results just In

Russia and The Irish Fishing industry 10

Nato 0

I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

― Smedley D. Butler, War Is A Racket

Kermit.de.frog

According to Sunday Independent a report next week will recommend a up to a tripling of defence spending and an overhaul of the Navy and Air Corps.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/defence-forces-admit-they-cannot-meaningfully-defend-ireland-41292277.html

This is welcome but must be acted on and not on shelf gathering dust.

No one is looking for aircraft carriers or some large military. Just the basics like every other sovereign state.

Eight fighter jets, primary military radar, increased naval provision to 12 ships among other things most would be content with.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553352#Comment_118553352

We have money for fighter planes and noone to fly them,extra ships,but cant man the ones we have.

But a suggestion the state build social housing/improve peoples lives is met by same people with derision and complaints of costs🤣🤣🤣

Gatling

@Dempo1 ,

Naval exercises - no live fire excercises don't .

Submarines and other vessels can sail through seas nothing uncommon there and again no live fire excercises.

We want Aircraft carriers and submarines .

Nobody on this thread or any other thread has remotely suggested anything like that ...

Iran - whataboutry it's pre boards but it's been discussed here .

Stick to joe and covid

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553384#Comment_118553384

The people who deride families who have applied for council houses with sneering terms like “foreva home” are 100% the same men (and it is always men) posting in here saying that we need to increase our military spending by billions of euros.

They genuinely believe that more money should be spent on protecting the assets of multinationals than human lives.

boetstark

Might not move anywhere, just carry on as planned. Ireland doesn't have the radar ability to monitor them anyway.

Typical Irish attitude, we showed them Russians. Ireland is a bit of a joke internationally making all these irrelevant noises that nobody takes seriously. Not a dig at everyday Irish people but with the powers in office, such an over inflated opinion of their importance.

Grow up. If Ireland wants all this respect internationally then have some bit of competence in looking after Irish airspace and waters. All fur coat and no knickers.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553530#Comment_118553530

Are you still playing the I'm an angry woman who hates men .

Dude it's not worked .

Move on

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553510#Comment_118553510

O Dear very tetchy this morning @Gatling , I guess there's something in that user name .

Last count , 4 different Threads on this topic , most ill informed.

Just because an atrocity is pre Boards, doesn't make it acceptable incidently, but perhaps your annoyed at my reminder that it's not only the Big Bad Russians who've shot down Civilian aircraft .

The Thread specifically asks about Irelands Defence frailty by Russian exercises.

I'm simply pointing out these exercises have little to do with our Defence Frailty in reality.

Thanks for advice re sticking with Covid (Classic deflection) which I'll ignore and as for the live line, I'm not alone in thinking it was was the greatest pile of nonsense last week, 4 days of Moronic nonsense.

Like it or not Irelands Naval Service "Patrols" our Territorial waters , The Russians , Like it or not have done nothing illegal and this Article might interest or perhaps infuriate you , out this morning , enjoy 😉 I see Article posted earlier but just incase you missed it with your Diatribe.....

Triple spend required, that's never, ever going to happen.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/defence-forces-admit-they-cannot-meaningfully-defend-ireland-41292277.html

But nice to see its the fishing community that resolved matters, not Government or indeed Naval Service.

Micko67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553530#Comment_118553530

I think a defence force capable of protecting every person in every inch of the country 24/7 365 days of the year would cost in the order of tens of billions annually I’d find it hard too see the average tax payer going for that it’s a bit much.

Gatling

Thanks to @source for posting this independent article..

The second option will propose a 50pc increase in defence spending to around €1.5bn per annum to improve troop protection, in part through a larger fleet of armoured personnel carriers, increased firepower, and better air defence for land forces. This would include additional helicopters, and a primary radar capability to support national security.

The report will note that the lack of any such radar is a clear weakness, in that it effectively means that aircraft flying in Irish airspace can remain undetected if their transponders are turned off. The commission received several submissions on this issue, with the Irish Aviation Authority saying the military “should have full capability to detect potential aircraft infringements into our national airspace”.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/defence-forces-admit-they-cannot-meaningfully-defend-ireland-41292277.html

Radar .

Armour

Helicopters

Jets.

Boats

These are exactly whats being asked for not just now but several years ,by the people who serve in out armed forces , hopefully they now pull peace keeping till we are better reorganised to defend our country and waters

The Aircorp to be rebranded to Airforce

Naval service rebranded as Navy

ARW rebranded Special operations force or IRL SOF (about time )

No aircraft carriers ,no submarines,no f22 or F35 stealth aircraft,no Nuclear weapons (the shite suggested on here )

Just pretty much Basic stuff required to defend , patrol. Monitor our skies and waters

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553618#Comment_118553618

I think it will happen. I think this last week has, not before time, shone too much of a light on our defence policy.

Tripling expenditure is very affordable. €3bn per year is not going to break the bank and is simply bringing us up to minimum standard with other small countries.

The first responsibility of any government is the defence of it's citizens and territory. This is not optional in the real world, it is the responsibility of every nation.

Even more so when that country claims (no matter how ridiculously) to be neutral. You can't have a neutrality you can't defend.

When you do it like Ireland it's even worse, we are seen as stingy cowards.

Gatling

@Dempo1 Last count , 4 different Threads on this topic , most ill informed.

And your the one who brought up wanting "Aircraft Carriers"

ill informed exactly .

🤦

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553678#Comment_118553678

8 jets suggested in the article would only work out at something like €400 million,

Some of the posters on here on a wind up suggesting that we want 100s of billions spent on everything from stealth bombers to submarines and Aircraft Carriers.

It's pretty much Basics stuff we should have had year's ago ,and it can all be bought off the shelf we don't need anything built to a Irish special Requirement that doesn't already exist,

Black Noel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118551804#Comment_118551804

No foreign country defends us, they defend themselves and allow some of us to believe they are defending us?

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553683#Comment_118553683

Lol, read my OP (Slowly, might help), I was comparing the cost of One Vessel from American /Russian Navys as opposed to the actual paltry budget of our entire defence budget over many decades.

Micko67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553716#Comment_118553716

I’d be surprised if they got the jets tbh as they have the agreement with the RAF, but I think the military pay, conditions and ability for surveillance are definitely on the table. Varadkar said the other day he doesn’t believe the issues in Ukraine and the naval exercises off Cork are connected, he’s either posturing himself up for negotiations on capability and discounts or he’s an idiot.

anyones guess which one it is

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553678#Comment_118553678

I'm not arguing about how much needs to be spent, just asking why 🤔

My belief is we certainly need to Patrol our Territorial waters re smuggling, Fisheries, Search and rescue etc , I've never got this Defence Narrative with the exception of defending against say drug trafficking etc.

The notion we need to spend billions patrolling a relatively small area seems odd to me.

There's an impression we need to be ready for a mass invasion, world war 3 so to speak with would be utterly futile . We are a small , Neutral Nation , not even members of Nato and some seem to think we need to compete with nations who spend Billions, yearly.

I'm certainly no Naval expert but from what I can see Government is actually intent in reducing Naval spending and as it is there's barely enough personel to operate existing fleet

Kermit.de.frog

What agreement with the RAF. We shouldn't have any such arrangement with anyone else. We should grow up and take our responsibility to our own territory seriously.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553799#Comment_118553799

Read the first line and went for forks sake here's another one ,

I was right

To keep it simple we don't need to spend hundreds of billions ,no Aircraft Carriers 🤦,

No stealth aircraft or bombers ,

No Submarines nuclear or otherwise

No Galaxy class intergalactic exploration vessels with the latest warpcore drives.

Just radar

Jets

Boats

Armour

Helicopters

Talking about triggered !

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553820#Comment_118553820

Can we defend our neutrality?

Micko67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553824#Comment_118553824

the agreement that came public a while ago.

we should take responsibility for our own territory but unfortunately sometimes what we should do and what actually happens don’t line up

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553838#Comment_118553838

We send more money to African states who in turn spend it on weapons than we spend on our defense forces.

But yet a simple discussion attracts the trolls claiming stealth bombers and aircraft carriers .

We're neutral the RAF will protect us ,nato will protect us all while crying 😭😭 Nato is surrounding Russia 🪆

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553166#Comment_118553166

A nice quote, but aiming it at Ireland and the Irish military seems just a teeny bit, well unfair to me lol!

(Apart from US) maybe dare I say it Russia is a fairer target given current sabre rattling (which relies on having those "high class muscle men" ready & looming in the background to work), but that would not go down very well with many posters I suppose, with their grá for Putin "playing a blinder" etc!

ancientmariner

Historically the Irish Defence Forces did a very adequate job in Defending our country through WW11, through the Troubles, arms smuggling operations and overseas missions. However in the modern age of distant and electronic target engagement, in all dimensions, we discarded hardware and ability to conduct Defence/Offence at Sea, in the Air, and on land. Examples would be loss of ASW capability, loss of HOSTAC functionality together with a Primary radar system, loss of Minesweeping capability, loss of Fighter squadrons, loss of ground support, loss of armour units, loss of a full Brigade, loss of lands and accommodation.

There has to be a purposeful link between purchases and the task of defence. Acquiring a 50/60 million Euro ship without an interface to all round modern task requirements such as surveillance in all modes is a limiting factor confining the ship to exclusively peacetime roles. Obviously military budgets are insufficient, are often notional and subject to claw-back if unspent. Those in charge of providing for the State's Defence concentrate on VFM without taking into account need and modern threats. When units such as ships are being bought it is all concentrating on commercial monetary provisions and little on the GFE that will classify the ship and it's capability.

In the overall there is an ongoing wind down of the totality of a PDF. The belief of a PDF that will look after personnel has been holed below the waterline. Hospitals and nursing services are largely gone, married quarters are gone, housing standards for personnel of all ranks is varied between good and extremely bad. The honest answer is that the PDF is managed in an unplanned and unreasoning manner leading to an unfit for purpose conclusion.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553833#Comment_118553833

It's a fair question but what is Neutrality exactly 🤔 why the need to defend against the fact we as a nation are never going to get involved in conflict. How likely, Honestly, is it Ireland will be invaded by a hostile nation seriously. I'd wager if an when that ever happened, most of the world will have been at war by then so at that stage, what's left to defend 🤔, I'm not being Glib , simply trying to understand the entire logic of needing a defence strategy in the first place, certainly protect our Coastline from manageable threats, Drugs etc but beyond a few examples , a small , well financed patrol service is all that is required.