Ireland's defensive frailty exposed by Russian exercise

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549441#Comment_118549441

But still these are Russian tanks in Ukraine ,💥💥💥

Black Noel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549158#Comment_118549158

I've often thought our best, most efficient approach to defence would be to adopt the Swiss model, arm and train every reliable citizen.

If a large number, say 1.5 million of the population were armed or at least trained, you would have a formidable force outside of the permanent DF.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549467#Comment_118549467

For an invasion that will never happen.

Black Noel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549454#Comment_118549454

Indeed, that's what they tell you.

Micko67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549158#Comment_118549158

I would have thought the primary reason for the Defence Forces to exist is for defence not for military deployments/operations.

you talk about ego and national pride in historic sense as a reason not to increase military funding but in fact the reason Ireland needs increased military funding is to give us some capability to detect aggression in the future.

In any event whether the defence or civilian authorities have the hardware that is required the bottom line is we still don’t have it.

Black Noel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549493#Comment_118549493

Well, let's hope it never will. But if we believe we need an army, why not an armed citizenry (Switzerland hasn't been invaded for centuries)?

A lot cheaper than many alternatives.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

@Shao Kahn great post, I totally agree.

A lot of the army-man types are totally in love with the hyper-competent military trope you see in films and think that carries through in real life. Who can discipline our wild kids? The military. Who should look for missing civilian airplanes? The military. Who goes out to fix the boats? The military. They're the best of the best.

Gatling

I suppose the mentality behind the idea of not investing in the defense forces is a simple case of cowardice , chickenshititis,

The idea of we ( like they represent a majority) don't need to spend on any military infrastructure because there is nobody is going to invade us ( nobody mentioned an invasion ) ,they are afraid of national pride in having a decent military , Every other country in Europe can afford to defend their own Borders skies and waters ,and most are set up as purely defensive posture ,they don't threaten their neighbors,they don't want to expand their territory ,but they can defend themselves .

Oh but someone's military will come and protect us if a global conflict breaks out of course they will because we have zero ability to do so ,and if they don't then what ehhh ehhh ehhhhhhh.

Maybe they it's about national pride ,or it's about keeping the country down as a whole ,I'd imagine if we did get invaded what the people saying don't spend anything on the military would be doing , hiding under a bed drowning in bodily fluids crying about being a pacifist or knocking on their own neighbors telling grand tales of which political parties they follow as seen in a lof of conflicts.

It's either arguments for arguments sake or just looking for a bit of attention,I doubt they are actually being serious more likely wind up merchants

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549519#Comment_118549519

They have a professional army and air force supplemented by reserves and use national service ( great national pride) and they are set up to defend their country ,

Civilian Army -😂

Yellow_Fern

It was mentioned above that "And even when we were actively fighting the largest empire in human history right on our doorstep, we still had no need for a huge bloated military with expensive hard wear etc as it would have been fairly useless for the manner in which we chose to fight the Brits. We would have easily lost a traditional war against Britain." However this is not so accurate because during the Civil War the army hit 60,000 and 20,000 during WW2.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549593#Comment_118549593

True but expect alternative hypothesis solely based on what they saw on Netflix

fly_agaric

@Shao Kahn

All the arguments I've seen here (from yourself and others) for building up the scope and capabilities of our military, don't actually involve military operations.

Most of you are now going to great pains to distance yourself from the actual primary reason for military organizations to even exist - which is traditional military deployments / operations.

You are promoting the civilian use and benefits of the armed forces. The reason you have switched focus, is because you know how deeply unpopular war and militarization of a country is among the average joe and jane on the streets. You can't get these people on board if you promoted the militaristic rhetoric you'd prefer to use.

But the reality is, if we're talking about the civilian benefits of the armed forces... you'd be far better off just funding those civilian institutions rather than re-purposing your armed forces for such tasks.

Well at the moment I think all of the stuff discussed as requiring urgent investments (some of it is "defence" of Ireland from threats of sorts, but it's a long way off actually fighting a war against invaders) is supposed to be the responsibility of parts of Ireland's military & the Defence dept., but they obviously can't do it.

For my part I don't agree with it, but won't mind much if military is officially wound down as not viable with resultant embarassment to politicians & potential public opposition (given it impies an end to UN peacekeeping missions which I think people like), so long as these jobs get done properly.

Either way more money will need to be spent and some of it will go on actual "weapons" (f. e.g. am no expert but expect new vessels for likes of Revenue & Customs that won't be in a "navy" per se will need to be fairly capable of protecting themselves and compelling other ships).

It's not good/healthy to just assume everyone discussing something is dishonest. In turn I or others could assume you make posts like this because for some reason you don't want to see Ireland do those jobs properly & argue against it by saying it is all "militaris[z]ation".

Ukraine are sadly one of these nations, that still falls into this category. If Russia did in fact commit to a large scale invasion, their old school nationalistic pride would prevent them from backing down from that confrontation...That brute force strong man image, that still infects Putin and nations like Russia... sadly is also present in nations like Ukraine too.

That is an incredible statement of equivalence between Ukraine and Russia. Why did you work that into your post? It has nothing to do with Ireland's military really?

We managed to fight off one of the most powerful nations in history, without the need for such infrastructure. Why would we need it now, when there are even fewer threats to our nationhood or sovereignty?...Here in Ireland, we actually fought the smarter war. You're much better off just falling back into those hit-and-run tactics right away when faced with an enemy who is much stronger than you. Taking pride and ego out of the equation.

No it is the weapon of those with nothing else to use + no allies of note. That is why the British were here in control of the whole island despite not being exactly popular rulers with the locals for hundreds of years. They could even still be in control if they'd been willing to be brutal enough during War of Independence IMO (i.e. use some more scorched earth Cromwell type tactics on Ireland again to put down any insurrection completely) but they were not motivated enough to do that/willing to ignore criticism that would have been heaped on them thankfully.

Considering that Northern Ireland could join the Republic is a realistic possibility, it would be prudent to have a decent military.

Just ponder the fact that they had approximately 20,000 manpower up there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Banner#:~:text=Operation%20Banner%20was%20the%20operational,as%20part%20of%20the%20Troubles.&text=Its%20role%20was%20to%20support,British%20government%20in%20Northern%20Ireland.

Even if the threat is lesser from the Unionist side than the IRA you still need a total overhaul of our military. You dont want to have to play catch up in that scenario. Of course there is the outside chance it might be worse. Who knows, its all about insurance against unnecessary loss of life, prolonging of a conflict, economic damage (who wanted to visit NI during the troubles?, bomb some multinationals and the Irish economy is toast as they leave in droves).

Russians aside for a moment, not having a proper defence force in our position is madness.

Good god, after a presumably democratic popular vote for unity the last thing we should be doing is sending soldiers in as police men.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549811#Comment_118549811

You have to think when NI kick off they have to bring in re-enforcements from the UK both civilian police and military ,

And the NI police are armed where ours are not for most part bar limited units ,if we are united policing and the military Will have no choice but to change and adapt

Black Noel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549558#Comment_118549558

I think an armed citizenry is worth thinking about. The brits and yanks were faced with every other person in Iraq owning a rifle and capable of inflicting casualties.

The yanks always put great store in their high gun ownership.

Rather than the state forcing ppl to join up, you could have the state inviting ppl to join up for a few weeks training, perhaps using a pup style form of payment.

Gatling

You still need a properly equipped and maintained military before can have any kind of national service ,you also have to equip them to the same standard , remember 3 people on boards don't want any kind of military spending ,and the military disbanded .

Polar101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549945#Comment_118549945

With little defense spending, there's no-one to train or organise or arm these civilian/paramilitary troops. To do that would need an increase in defense spending - there is a reason most countries either have a professional army, or universal conscription.

Gatling

The next spend for the defense forces is going on new uniforms , were ditching our traditional Irish DPM for MC which what the Americans , British,Danes , Australian and other EU /nato forces are using.

They Steyr Aug (rifle) badly need updating or completely replaced ,the army got some updates flat top rail and acog sights , but all pretty much limited while the Aug is an ok platform it has its limitations as a bullpup , better systems are available ,

Mowags are the same alright for Basic troop movements but lack any real offensive and defensive capability ,we could do with modern IFVs instead ,

Helicopters both armed and scout , medium / heavy lift variants plenty of options available on the market,

We're not talking squadrons of helicopters a few different variants for different mission sets

CGI_Livia_Soprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118550015#Comment_118550015

Sounds like you’re writing a shopping list for Airfix kits.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118550290#Comment_118550290

We'll it's not for gender neutral dolls

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549530#Comment_118549530

Unfortunately these militaristic types have been listened to by governments and leaders for centuries, which is why the world is effectively in a mexican stand-off with super powers aiming their big impressive nukes at each other, and beating their chests like a bunch of knuckle dragging neanderthals!

You have people on this thread, who can't even decide why exactly we need greater capabilities with our military forces... but yet they're completely steadfast in their certainty that we need it. Brain dead stuff.

"We need a basic ability to defend ourselves" ... "But we're not talking about war or invasion" lol

Well, news flash guys. If you're building up your military to better defend yourself as a deterrent, that means being attacked or invaded. It means potential military engagement with foreign forces.

Ireland directly engaging with practically anyone with enough military clout to invade another nation, would be suicidal. All that would happen, is we would look really cool like rambo with our flashy toys for a few short weeks until we got flattened by whomever we're fighting. Then if there is anyone left to fight, the real long war would begin just like our struggle with the Brits. (that's the less cool looking reality of war)

Pointless egotistical nonsense.

These guys just want us to look cool on international TV, sailing out into the Atlantic to wag our finger at the naughty Russians. They would have us dump billions on defense, just so we could look at bit more "respectable" on the international stage.

I suppose it shouldn't be all that surprising considering we've slowly turned into this superficial nation. Everything is about "looking the part".

Gatling

@Shao Kahn

You have people on this thread, who can't even decide why exactly we need greater capabilities with our military forces... .

It's been explained to you and others by several posters and yet here you are are again with the silly militaristic types ,

Names himself after a computer game warrior character

,cries about military spending

Oh the irony

ancientmariner

There is/was sufficient hardware in the Naval Service to patrol and monitor the Area described by many as the "Bigger Map Of Ireland". The least we can do is electronically monitor the SW area at the Porcupine Trough and try to ascertain the nature of the Russian Exercise. The exercise and the intention to close off an area of the High Seas is contrary to the provisions of UNCLOS which Russia signed and acceded to on 12th March 1997. We could station some ships 20 miles to the north of the area and scan by radar and AIS. The main thing is NOT to move or deploy except to meet the Irish Fleet's needs. In other words don't become guardships for the Russian navy or control IFV's to suit the Russians.

Some comments are OTT. in not recognising that our waters are crucial to sea lanes from the west which will be threatened mainly by sub-surface craft. The least we could do was to maintain the levels of defence provided by the Corvette era. Being afloat is one thing but being relevant is another. There is a deficit and we add to it by the attrition caused by operational deficiencies in manpower and planning. No normal ship costs a Billion rather a fully outfitted 100m corvette type at 110/120m per ship, and a Support vessel to attend them at sea.

AyeGer

Looks like a combination of Irish diplomacy and the threat of disruption by the fishermen changed the Russians minds. They are moving their tests.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118550978#Comment_118550978

Won't mean anything it's not like we have the ability to police them ,the Russians won't change course

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118550978#Comment_118550978

Yes. Obviously with Ireland being neutral Russia will be expecting Ireland to complain when other countries plan to do likewise.

https://twitter.com/simoncoveney/status/1487472323456385036

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118551002#Comment_118551002

The same russia recently wrote a strongly worded letter to the UN about the annexation of east Germany when the Berlin wall feel 25 years previously

monkeybutter

This shows the pointlessness of the ops post, we knew they were coming and they moved when asked

A great bunch of lads

A lot making a mountain out of a molehill as usual

nigeldaniel

More likely a calculated decision on Russia's part to move the tests. They gambled we would not fuss and when we did, we fussed a lot. Then, to add to that the French got involved, combined with the possibility of Ireland thinking about NATO, Russia decided it was not worth the hassle. Opportunists behave a lot like that. I would think their Submarines will still do a bit of mischief-making underwater.