Swashbuckler's Marathon Debut?

Swashbuckler · 17-11-2021 6:18pm #1

Crappy title I know........................

Past

For those that don't know me this will be my latest attempt at getting and keeping a log going. Feels like I've been running forever. In truth I have been running since 2010 but spent roughly 7 years running like most of the "unconverted" and trying to run as hard as I can every day that I went out, without any meaningful structure.

In 2017 I started getting coached (by ecoli/Myles Splitz/Testosterscone) from these parts. That was when my running really took off. In that same year my first daughter joined the world. 2018 saw me hit some PB's at various distances that still stand today. 36.05 for 10k, 1.19.52 for HM being the two that stand out.

Some injuries & interruptions to training hit me a bit towards the end of 2018 and into 2019 but I got back on track. 2019 saw my second child arrive to the world. No major PB's achieved in 2019 and another injury break. Most of my focus that year was around 10k training - I struggled a bit that year.

2020 was the pandemic year and I spent a lot of time building strength, staying away from race specific stuff. Very enjoyable year of running to be honest. Ran a 17.02 5k TT although I'm skeptical as I haven't got near that since. I came into 2021 in good shape without the distraction of races.

Present

2021 saw my third child arrive to the world. I have spent a good chunk of this year being coached by a friend in Kerry. Racing was limited again in 2021 but the one race I did run was Banna 10k in August where I ran 36.22 on a course that had a very tough windy last 3km. Was feeling decent after 7k and was on track for sub 36 but the last 3k caught me.

Since the birth of my third I have really had to manage the running carefully. I have made the mistake in the past of trying to balance everything ramping at the same time (work, life, family, running). That kind of stress is probably one of the main reasons for injuries in the past. I am no longer coached. I feel I need the flexibility to pick and chose what I do rather than sticking to a rigid plan. This will be completely contradicted later when I explain my next plan! You could argue that a coach would be flexible and that has certainly been my experience. I just don't feel like I want to be last minute texting all the time to suss out what can change because I had a sh*te night sleep, or unplanned meetings at work. As it stands I have moved to a new role at work, new baby is here and we're in the middle of a neverending pandemic.......Seems like a bad time to set a big goal right?

Future

It's been a running (literally) joke for a few years on here the fact I've stuck with the shorter distances and refused to go near the marathon.....Well rightly or wrongly it feels like its time. At this stage it feels like there's always a reason or an excuse not to take the plunge. Realistically travelling abroad is off the cards for me for a while. Similarly, getting into Dublin is unlikely in the next couple of years. With that, it seems like Limerick Marathon is ideal - I live here so I dont have to worry about any of the travel logistics. Do I want to wait til 2023 - No........Do I want to spend another year just training away - No...So my plan is to start training for Great Limerick Marathon which will be run on the May bank holiday 2022. Whether I make it to the start line I'm not sure. Whether it all becomes too much with everything else going on, we'll see. I'm more than happy to try - and if it doesnt work out then so be it. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

The Plan

As I said above , right now I'm not coached and I feel like this needs to be the way for a while for this to work. Maybe I won't have the most optimal training programme but I need flexibility right now. I've sussed out several different plans. To me the one that seems to fit me the best is a Jack Daniels plan for a few reasons - 1. Two big sessions and the rest of the weeks running is flexible as long as you hit weekly mileage target. 2. Not ideal but there is flexibility for sessions to move around if necessary. 3. I like the look of the sessions - lots of mixed tempo, threshold sessions. However, I will adjust if/when necessary.

In terms of the plan itself its the 2Q 56-70 miles/week plan although i wont be going near 70 miles peak. I plan on training ultra conservative over the initial 6 weeks and seeing how I'm adapting.

I will need to improve diet/nutrition. That's a work in progress and has always been an issue for me.

My intention is to start the plan on Dec 30th which allows me roughly 17.5 weeks of training. I will be initially targeting running my big sessions on weird days. Not what people will be used to seeing - Thursdays and Mondays. We'll see how it goes.

Until then my intention is to keep things ticking over as I have been doing since Baby No.3 arrived in September. I'm in decent enough shape right now - possibly not peak shape but not far off. Training has gone pretty well since the 36.22 in Banna apart from sleep dis-improving with the new arrival.

Let's hope I can keep the log going - at least up to May 1st! Part of my motivation for logging again is down to the endless amounts of experience on this forum that I hope to leverage. Also so I can stop asking AMK endless questions on his log................

healy1835 · 17-11-2021 6:42pm

Just get rid of that question mark in the title and you're all set 😁 great to see you logging again. Will be following with interest. Starting on Dec 30th you say 😮 I might be a few weeks after you...

Swashbuckler · 17-11-2021 7:12pm

Well I want to start on a Thursday and I definitely won't be starting on the 23rd! The question mark is there as I'm genuinely not sure how things will go from Jan to May outside of running....we'll see. I could make it to week 2 of the plan and think hell no!

Wubble Wubble · 17-11-2021 9:03pm

Healy beat me to that one....fingers crossed come May it will have changed to an exclamation mark! Best of luck with it, I'll be checking in here too.

OOnegative · 17-11-2021 9:38pm

Log should be called “Swashbuckler should stop procrastinating, take the fookin finger out and run a marathon!!”. Best of luck P.

Murph_D · 17-11-2021 10:41pm

Good luck with this, P. Assume you're focusing on the marathon because you want to, not because you feel you have to. But it's been a long time coming, and that long period of strength building should serve you well. Looking forward to seeing the progress. I suppose it's too early to start asking about goals, but what do you hope to get out of it?

Swashbuckler · 17-11-2021 11:01pm

Good questions D. And thanks for the well wishes...firstly 100% it's what I want....the interest was there at the end of 2019 but we all know what happened in 2020. When I look at the training I enjoy the most its the tempo, threshold, marathon pace range stuff. I'm not gonna lie , I'm a bit sick of those 3k, 5k style sessions...they are hard .....all sessions are hard but there's just something mentally tough about doing hard 5k sessions for prolonged periods in training...

As for the goal...im purposely gonna avoid picking some random time right now..translating equivalent shorter distances would suggest 2.50ish. Current theoretical marathon pace is 6.25ish. I'm not intending on putting myself in the position to even think about attacking a time like that. For now the C goal is sub 3. A and B goal are TBD. Better and more experienced runners than me have struggled to get low 2.50's and I don't intend on going there on my first effort. So we'll see. The main point of doing this is the fresh challenge and change up in goal distance and training style. I wanna see how I cope with those bigger MP sessions.

I won't lie though. The JD plan is a little on the aggressive side....there are big 15/16M sessions. I'm gonna try offset that with conservative paces in training.

ReeReeG · 18-11-2021 10:16am

Best of luck with this, will definitely be following this! Limerick was my first marathon too, hope you don't get the really hot weather after training in snow like I did 🤣 Will you have anyone to do the long runs with?

ariana` · 18-11-2021 10:16am

Delighted to see this (finally 😂) and wish you the very best with it! More than anything I hope you enjoy the process , I think you will.

Swashbuckler · 18-11-2021 10:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118184575#Comment_118184575

Thanks a mill....I'm afraid I'll be training solo...the fact I'll be doing my long runs/sessions on Thursday and Monday evenings (at least that's my initial plan) and the nature of the long runs (lots of mixed tempo and threshold stuff) means I've no other option really. That being said I've been training solo for years although I'm sure some company would help.

AuldManKing · 18-11-2021 10:31am

Looking fwd to this - its like the DCM Novice log all over again - except its just 1 guy and its Limerick.

Prepare for info overload as you move through it.

Regarding the goal: No doubt you'll read back on various posters 1st sub3 - for me, it was always Sub3 - I didn't care if it was 2.55/2.56/2.57/2.58/2.59 - they were all meaningless during the race - it boiled down to sub 3.

But I will say - dont underestimate it as a 'C' goal - Marathons are a different beast.

A Debut sub 3 is amazing in its own right.

Lambay island · 18-11-2021 10:38am

Nice one and great you have a plan in mind. Intriguing to follow your training. I was thinking of doing Cork as I have a rollover entry from ages ago but Limerick an option for me too.

healy1835 · 18-11-2021 10:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118184702#Comment_118184702

All are welcome on the Limerick Bus...😀 May is always a bit of a risk as regards warm weather (and my own greatest day in the Treaty City was accompanied by 20C temperatures), but June would just freak me out. Also, May is the latest I'd leave it if you're going again in the Autumn.

Lambay island · 18-11-2021 10:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118184756#Comment_118184756

Yeh, thats my thinking. I entered Cork in June as I thought that had a chance of going ahead as opposed to Dublin in October at the time but yeh there is f all down time there before hitting into a new block.

Swashbuckler · 18-11-2021 11:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118184662#Comment_118184662

Completely get what you mean and that's my mentality to be honest. Sub 3 is a big target for anyone, especially a first timer, regardless of decent times in shorter distances...Actually a few people think I'm mad to be chasing sub 3 first time out. But I'm the same as you. It's an exciting target. It's my C goal but I'm under no illusions it's not your typical C goal. The way I see it is I'll have A, B and C goals and if I don't manage the C goal then I expect it could be a death march! All well and good saying all this now but there's literally a lot of road between now and May so who knows what could happen. For now, once Dec 30th hits, my plan is to start off with relatively conservative paces of 6.40 MP and 6.15 Tempo/Thresh for the first few weeks and adjust as I see fit.

Swashbuckler · 18-11-2021 11:03am

We're building up a bit of a group for Limerick it seems! Me, Healy, possibly MYBAD, possibly Lambay.....Any other takers?!

Dubh Geannain · 18-11-2021 12:27pm

Looking forward to following the Marathon's Swashbuckler debut!

I think I do quite well with 3 young kids to get just 30 miles in per week. Flexible would be my way to go alright if the work front is ramping up too. Best of luck with the training.

Swashbuckler · 18-11-2021 12:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118185281#Comment_118185281

I won't lie - its been a struggle the past several weeks but i've somehow managed to train 50 days out of 55 since the day she was born. One of the things that has made it so tricky is mornings have not been an option. With the night feeds and school runs and balancing all that I only have two windows to get my run in. Lunch time or evening. And several lunch breaks have been lost to helping out with the kids or last minute meetings. So that leaves evenings - I like to help with dinner and bedtime so most nights I haven't been getting out til 7.30/8pm and sitting down for dinner some nights after 9pm!

Working from home makes it all a little more hectic to be honest. But hopefully it'll settle a bit. My wife has looked at me like I've two heads some evenings as I head out after a longggggg day but that's the habit at this stage. I've conditioned my brain that if I can run, I must run. Unless there's an emergency or I'm just completely wrecked, I'm getting out that door rain, hail or snow. The mental reset of a run is huge for me too - I really notice it the next day if I havent got out for a run the day before.

skyblue46 · 18-11-2021 2:54pm

Best of luck with it P. It'll be good to have something new to read on here 😀 Picking a race distance based on the training you enjoy seems a great way to ward off any motivational or pressure issues over the winter months. Hopefully that motivation also extends into regular log updates 😉

Swashbuckler · 18-11-2021 3:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186097#Comment_118186097

Cheers S.

That's the hope but I have tried and failed to keep the log going in the past. That being said I'd hope that this very specific goal will encourage me to keep it going as I really plan on relying on the advice of all you folks on here rather than Google. Nothing quite like getting the exact info you need direct from the horses mouth.......

Very selfish reason to have a log now that I think about it 😄

ReeReeG · 18-11-2021 4:36pm

Would you consider a treadmill? My brother has one in a shed outside his house for the very reason that he doesn't want to be missing bedtime etc, so I'll often see a logged treadmill run at 9 or 10 at night! He even swears by it now for saving the legs a bit along with the hard road sessions... Space and cost are of course an issue.

Swashbuckler · 18-11-2021 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186844#Comment_118186844

In short - never!

I dunno - nothing can replicate the road running other than running on the road but that's just me. Plenty of elites and other folks using the treadmills regularly....I'd only go that route if I was desperate.

ReeReeG · 18-11-2021 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118186878#Comment_118186878

Yeah in fairness my bro WAS desperate 🤣

marathon2022 · 18-11-2021 9:19pm

Sounds like a fantastic project, best of luck with the training.

Lambay island · 18-11-2021 11:44pm

I'm jarred 🤫 but I'm in!

MY BAD · 19-11-2021 2:22pm

YES!!!

ThebitterLemon · 20-11-2021 11:08pm

Great stuff P

Best of luck with it.

Might see you in Limerick

TbL

Singer · 20-11-2021 11:14pm

Congrats on giving in to the inevitable :)

I think you should be looking for more than a sub-3 performance, ideally with a few 10 mile - HM races to set you up well in advance.

Swashbuckler · 21-11-2021 10:45am

Cheers lads.

I see where you're coming from B. We'll see how I'm feeling in April/May. Need to get through a block of training first.

Probably won't race much in the block. No plans on racing 10M or HM really. Maybe Adare 10k in Feb but that's more for my love of the race than anything. Plans could always change though!

MY BAD · 21-11-2021 9:41pm

I feel a sub 3 is a very good target. I don't really know the course profile but the race itself won't be stacked as much as the big city marathons. Its better not to over reach for the first one and enjoy it, then take it from there.

Swashbuckler · 21-11-2021 10:24pm

Cheers for all the support folks..Exactly the reason I wanted to get the log going for this..I know I'll get some great inputs on here.

So for the past several weeks the focus has been on getting out when I can and do what I feel I'm able for. The past few weeks I've been able for more so the volume of the sessions has increased slightly. I'm doing two sessions a week rather than my old two session, one long run. The idea being that going forward I'll be doing two big sessions a week so I'm adjusting now. Plus I'm trying to limit time away from home at the mo. Disappearing for a 90min session is better than a 2hr long run. That will change in January. So with that id be interested to hear anyones thoughts on the best way to prep for the marathon block over the next 5 or 6 weeks - keep doing what im doing? Reduce intensity and let the legs freshen? Get some hills in?

This weeks training;

Monday : Easy 8M at 7.58 avg (1hr 4mins)

Tuesday: 10 x 800m at 6.05ish (threshold) off 75s

All ranging 5.53 to 6.06. Big enough session but felt strong. 10 miles all in with warm-up and cooldown. Flat route.

Wednesday: Recovery 5.5M at 8.38 avg (48mins) - the pace says it all.

Thursday: Easy 1hr with 6 x 20s strides : 7.1miles at 8.23 avg (stride recoveries mess up the average). Felt recovered. The slow recovery runs definitely help.

Friday: 20min MP (6.35ish)/3min jog/5x1min hard off 60s/20min MP

Another big enough session by my standards. Love these . First 20mins are handy enough. The 1min turnovers have the legs nice and tired for the second 20mins..nicely tired at the end. Trying to use these as a gauge on how ready I am for a marathon block. Verdict? Not a clue. 10.23 miles all in

Saturday: Recovery 5M at 8.32 avg (43mins) another necessary slow recovery

Sunday: Easy 7M at 8.00avg (57mins) on a hillier route than normal. Enjoyed this.

Total: 53 miles, 6hrs 56mins

Total Quality: roughly 11.5 miles, 1hr 15mins

Decent week....

healy1835 · 22-11-2021 10:33am

You've planned quite a long marathon block, 17 weeks?, so once you get going you'll still have plenty of time to get where you need to be. I'd say keep in touch with that threshold/60mins pace anyway, throw in a couple of longer efforts 5mile, 8mile etc at that pace. Maybe have a Parkrun blowout in there too.

Swashbuckler · 22-11-2021 10:58am

A few things I forgot to add to the update.

People who know me , know of my love for running shoes! Well the Fuelcell TC finally reached their end of days during the week. 750 miles I put on them and they're fairly in tatters. To be honest they probably shoulda been chucked out sooner but the cushioning is still in decent nick. If the upper wasn't falling apart I'd still be wearing them. Tried to attach a photo here.

The missus asked me what I wanted for xmas...Found it hard to justify runners til I looked at my collection with a marathon block in mind..There's a gap for a "do it all" sessions/long run/easy/recovery shoe (any excuse). So I have a replacement pair arrived already (took three days from Alltricks - super fast delivery). 160 euro which is an excellent price for a great shoe.

If I'm being completely honest I'm probably using some of my runners in a way I would never have expected. For example I have tended to try out the Endorphin Pro for some bigger sessions and will likely do so in the marathon block. Getting the Next% was a bit of a gamechanger to be honest. Its hard to ever see me picking the Endorphin Pro over the Next% for a race. I always expected the Endorphin Pro to be my go-to racer but it's not worked out that way. The TC and Speeds are 100% training shoes in my opinion and I love them both. The 4% at this stage are also becoming a bit of a session shoe. It's made really - won't be long before the vast majority of "serious" runners are training full time in carbon plated shoes.

In my last update the Tuesday and Friday sessions were in the Pro. The other four runs were in the withered TC. Then the Sunday run was in the Pegasus 36. Those are a pair I've had for quiet a while that I just need to bring to their own "end of days". Was only a matter of time before I started talking about shoes, right?

WhatsApp Image 2021-11-20 at 15.19.33.jpeg

Swashbuckler · 22-11-2021 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204646#Comment_118204646

Is posting the plan on here a no-no given its from the book? Might give some context to folks just how much planned MP and threshold work there is in this plan.

healy1835 · 22-11-2021 11:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204823#Comment_118204823

I don't think Jack or his copyright lawyers will lose too much sleep if you did 😉

Swashbuckler · 22-11-2021 11:50am

That's v0 of the plan basically. There's a few sessions I'm sceptical about and the taper is something I might look at closer to the time. Ignore the colour coding - I love my colours - it basically highlights to me where the easy runs are, the vanilla long, the MP sessions, interval sessions and the threshold sessions. I think this plan might evolve over time. Vdot of 56 for the first 6 weeks is on the conservative side. I have 58? as my vdot towards the end as its advised by Daniels to up the vdot twice in the cycle but i dont see myself doing the marathon at the corresponding pace to a 58 vdot.

Filler miles is the remaining miles in the week that need to be fit into the non-session days.

healy1835 · 22-11-2021 12:05pm

What are you basing your Vdot off of?

Swashbuckler · 22-11-2021 12:20pm

Recent race (August) in Banna 10k of 36.22 suggests a current vdot of 58. I'm in similar nick to when I ran that. When I look at all the paces for a vdot of 58 they all feel like where I'm at right now.

Daniels suggests going with a lower vdot for the first six weeks. I've actually gone with two vdots lower.

Murph_D · 22-11-2021 12:27pm

Good to see some running logged. 😉

You started with a yasso, I see. How did you find that? I assume they were not on a track, so the variation in pace is as likely to be gps related as anything else. I do think if you want to use it as any kind of even loose 'predictor' (and it's never worked for me!) a track is the only place to do it.

Have never done a Daniels marathon plan but I like the 2Q approach which I've used for 800 training. Also like the session variety and I see there is plenty of it here. Which ones are you sceptical about?

Love the graphics by the way, I'm a fan of colour coded spreadsheets myself.

ariana` · 22-11-2021 12:41pm

Love the variety and the flexibility around the filler/easy miles, I can see the appeal with your family circumstances. Interesting to see you have Saturday as a rest day. I know you are trying to work around a very busy family and the thinking is perhaps that Saturday will be an official "family day"? But surely 60-70 mins on a weekend day is less intrusive than 60-70 mins on a work day? I mention it because I've always had Sunday as a rest day and have lately been having this very argument with myself! It's a bit daft that I am running myself ragged on work days to fit in a run along with a billion after school activities and general school runs/homework/bedtime story reading duties and then on Sundays I have a full day off from all of that and running. It's nice to have the day to head off with the family but a lot of the time I could very easily get a run in as well whereas other days it an be a lot harder to fit it in.

MrMacPhisto · 22-11-2021 2:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204740#Comment_118204740

I find myself constantly reaching for the Endorphin Speeds (1 & 2) for any day that there is work to be done. I have used them for 5k/10k speed, threshold, marathon pace tempo and long runs with faster bits. Extremely versatile for me. Im getting around 800kms out of them without much wear or loss of comfort. I suppose the only caveat with the speeds will be the time of year you are training. They are not great in wet or slippery conditions.

I have moved away from Pegasus since the 37 model. They had been my staple from the 32-36 models. My easy and recovery shoe is now Asics Novablasts 1's and 2's. Same caveat as above mind you, cold/frosty conditions are not their friend. They handle wet conditions well.

Race day will be the same as you, although I have only ever used the 4% version up to now ;)

Good luck with your training!!

Swashbuckler · 22-11-2021 5:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205227#Comment_118205227

To be honest it's only now you said it I realise how that might have appeared as a Yasso. Its purely co-incidental though. All of that reading over the past few years must be sinking in subconsciously. I went out with the mindset of running some pure threshold but not continuous. I just happened to choose 800m reps and happened to choose x10. Wanted roughly 30mins or 5 miles of threshold effort in the whole session.

So I wasnt using it as a gauge for a marathon time. It was a controlled threshold effort throughout and I certainly could have managed each rep faster (possibly 2.50-2.55 per rep if I wanted to push it). As for the gps , yeah thats the same route as I ran my suspect 17.02 5k TT. That being said there would be a natural variance in pace anyway. I wouldnt be hitting every 800m rep bang on the money even on a track.

As for my scepticism/worry;

1E/6M/1E/6M/2E: The first Q1 session on the plan has 12 miles of marathon pace................................
Some of the 1k reps at 5k effort after 8 miles easy seems a tad daunting.
40minE/4x2T off 2min/2x1T off 1min/1E: This just seems wrong to me. Thats 10 miles of threshold which seems to contradict Daniels guidance of no more than 10k of threshold a week. Thats in the same week as a 20 miler.

Those are the few that jump out. In general they are high volume sessions. Hopefully the body can hold up. Maybe i'm just being a little self depreciating but it seems like a little bit of a jump to go from 55 mile weeks/two ~10-12 mile sessions to 2 x 15/16 mile sessions.

Swashbuckler · 22-11-2021 5:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205304#Comment_118205304

You know I thought long and hard about that very question...To put it simply I have two big sessions per week. I dont want them to fall on a weekend (Im sure some might but i dont want to set up the plan for that to be a regular thing). I also want three days recovery after Q1 and two days recovery after Q2. Ideally I want one day off - if i feel great I may take it as a recovery day although I suspect i'll need it.

So that leaves a limited number of options for the session days. But your point was specifically related to a 1hr easy run at the weekend so.....

If you look at the filler miles columns, generally speaking thats not a lot of miles to make up in four days. The max is 29. Spread across four days thats roughly 7 miles per day. This should handily fall within my lunch break which I've historically been very good at keeping for runs.

Main thing for me is I really would like one day at the weekend where I get out of bed and spend the entire day with the family, kids and missus and running takes a complete back seat. There will almost definitely be some weekends where things need to shuffle though and I'm prepared for that. To be completely honest, its more of a pain for me having a run looming over me all day at the weekend than me getting it in at lunch at work.

Murph_D · 22-11-2021 9:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206827#Comment_118206827

You prompted me to have a look at the book again - a max of 10k for weekly T running seemed a bit low for a marathon plan, and what it actually says (p54, 3rd edition) is 10 percent. Not a huge difference, it has to be said, as this would be 7 miles in your 70 mile programme (as that session is scheduled for a peak week, i.e. 70 miles).

It does seem like a contradiction alright, but I suppose it's conditioned by his contention that a split tempo allows you to go longer. Still a monster alright, over an hour cumulatively at your VDOT 58 pace of 6:04/mile. But you have 9 mins of recovery in there too. 😉

I wonder though about your thinking in choosing this schedule (designed for a 70 mile peak) if your actual peak is going to be 60 miles. Maybe you'd consider using the 55 mile version and padding it out with some extra easy mileage. The corresponding T session in that plan has a more manageable 7 miles @ T pace (60E, 3x2T off 2 mins, 1T, 1E).

AuldManKing · 22-11-2021 11:26pm

Just a couple of comments on the sessions in question;

40minE/4x2T off 2min/2x1T off 1min/1E: I've read elsewhere that this is a typo from a longer mileage session - Look up Reddit logs on Daniels - people seem to just leave the 2x1T (or run them at MP)

1E/6M/1E/6M/2E: The first Q1 session on the plan has 12 miles of marathon pace: Remember that you'll be doing this at 2 VDOT's under your target - so its not really PMP.

Some of the 1k reps at 5k effort after 8 miles easy seems a tad daunting: I thought the same and Actually - this went well for me - you will surprise yourself. I do recall the 1st time I done the 2Q plan - I shortened the warm up to 5-6 miles.

The CRU version of this plan that I sent you may be an easier initial few weeks if you need to 'work into it'.

Note: I've never actually followed this to the letter - always some changes - I've ran some of the tempos at MP - I've inserted some of the Steve Way sessions - and I think JD himself never intended for these to be used as a firm plan - rather as a guide.

Swashbuckler · 23-11-2021 10:34am

Cheers guys.

Murph that was actually a really useful input. I took a look at the 55 mile plan again and I think it probably makes more sense to use those sessions and fill up the easy days to make 60 miles (if im up to it) rather than adjusting down the 70 mile plan. There isn't a huge difference in the sessions in each plan but there are some subtle differences for example the opening session on the plan is 8MP with 1T rather than 2 x 6MP. The interval sessions at R pace seem a little more manageable too.

AMK - spot on I actually hadnt considered a couple of those points - the MP not really being MP at the start of the plan.

This plan will definitely adjust as time goes on no doubt - happy to iron on some of the more major things now though.

Swashbuckler · 23-11-2021 11:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205733#Comment_118205733

Thank you!

Agree on the Speeds. I haven't worn them for anything more than 12 miles. I think for a lot of the Daniels sessions I may lean towards the Pro or the TC if the conditions are wet. It's amazing really the way things have gone. These shoes would have been top of the range racers a few years ago. Feels like an age ago that I was wearing adizero adios 3 for all my sessions and races.

SuspectZero · 24-11-2021 2:02am

That 4x2+2x1 @ T session cant be right, in his 71-85 plan, its just 4x2m so must be a typo as AMK said. I also think 4x2m @ T is pushing it, as its 48:32 of running at 60 minute pace

As Murph mentioned, JD talks about doing no more than 10% of weekly mileage at T pace and I've also read of him talking about maxing out at 40 mins of threshold work in one session so I would take those points as more important than whats wrote in the plan as mileage is a very generic measurement of a workout, it wont fit everyone!

A way you could work around this is if you applied every plan mile at threshold as 5 minutes. So 3m at T would be 15 mins, 4x2m would be 4x10 minutes instead etc. There is also a big ol session week 16 with 8m at T so that would catch my attention as well. The weeks those sessions happen on have 60 miles so that would be 6 miles of T max by JD's writing.

If you go:

4x2m @T= 4x10min @ T, that would mean just shy of 6.5m of T

The same goes for the Week 16 workout which is on a 60 mile week

So if you used the 5 min instead of one mile across all the tempo sessions in the plan, you would still have a fluid progression of stimulus but wouldn't have the kind of overkill monster sessions. Just an idea and my .02c

Swashbuckler · 24-11-2021 10:42am

Some great inputs folks...And I do like the idea of adjusting to time based threshold if necessary too. Thanks guys. I took a look at Murphs suggestion and the 55 mile plan does look a little more manageable. I have the flexibility of sticking to the peak of 55M or adjusting up the easy miles (if I feel up to it) to make it a 60M peak. The Excel file just got a lot more complicated. 😂.

I'm leaving the vanilla long runs open - I may go off the suggested time or may try to hit the miles noted in the cell i.e. 120mins is likely 15 miles for me but I would like to be hitting 16, 17, 18 milers. Time will tell but experience tells me my long runs wont be quicker than 8min/mile.

Laineyfrecks · 24-11-2021 3:32pm

Great to see you logging again. Very best of luck with with your debut marathon, it's always good to have something new to aim towards for motivational reasons. I think you will enjoy the process, it's not easy but very rewarding when it goes to plan (whether it be plan A, B or C) Will follow with great interest.

AuldManKing · 25-11-2021 3:50pm

By the time 30th Dec comes around - you'll have log fatigue and your plan will have changed 30+ more times!!

Swashbuckler's Marathon Debut?

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