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Swashbuckler's Marathon Debut?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭ healy1835

    You've planned quite a long marathon block, 17 weeks?, so once you get going you'll still have plenty of time to get where you need to be. I'd say keep in touch with that threshold/60mins pace anyway, throw in a couple of longer efforts 5mile, 8mile etc at that pace. Maybe have a Parkrun blowout in there too.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,580 ✭✭✭ Swashbuckler

    Is posting the plan on here a no-no given its from the book? Might give some context to folks just how much planned MP and threshold work there is in this plan.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭ healy1835

    I don't think Jack or his copyright lawyers will lose too much sleep if you did 😉

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,580 ✭✭✭ Swashbuckler

    That's v0 of the plan basically. There's a few sessions I'm sceptical about and the taper is something I might look at closer to the time. Ignore the colour coding - I love my colours - it basically highlights to me where the easy runs are, the vanilla long, the MP sessions, interval sessions and the threshold sessions. I think this plan might evolve over time. Vdot of 56 for the first 6 weeks is on the conservative side. I have 58? as my vdot towards the end as its advised by Daniels to up the vdot twice in the cycle but i dont see myself doing the marathon at the corresponding pace to a 58 vdot.

    Filler miles is the remaining miles in the week that need to be fit into the non-session days.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭ healy1835

    What are you basing your Vdot off of?

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,580 ✭✭✭ Swashbuckler

    Recent race (August) in Banna 10k of 36.22 suggests a current vdot of 58. I'm in similar nick to when I ran that. When I look at all the paces for a vdot of 58 they all feel like where I'm at right now.

    Daniels suggests going with a lower vdot for the first six weeks. I've actually gone with two vdots lower.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,895 ✭✭✭ Murph_D

    Good to see some running logged. 😉

    You started with a yasso, I see. How did you find that? I assume they were not on a track, so the variation in pace is as likely to be gps related as anything else. I do think if you want to use it as any kind of even loose 'predictor' (and it's never worked for me!) a track is the only place to do it.

    Have never done a Daniels marathon plan but I like the 2Q approach which I've used for 800 training. Also like the session variety and I see there is plenty of it here. Which ones are you sceptical about?

    Love the graphics by the way, I'm a fan of colour coded spreadsheets myself.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭ ariana`

    Love the variety and the flexibility around the filler/easy miles, I can see the appeal with your family circumstances. Interesting to see you have Saturday as a rest day. I know you are trying to work around a very busy family and the thinking is perhaps that Saturday will be an official "family day"? But surely 60-70 mins on a weekend day is less intrusive than 60-70 mins on a work day? I mention it because I've always had Sunday as a rest day and have lately been having this very argument with myself! It's a bit daft that I am running myself ragged on work days to fit in a run along with a billion after school activities and general school runs/homework/bedtime story reading duties and then on Sundays I have a full day off from all of that and running. It's nice to have the day to head off with the family but a lot of the time I could very easily get a run in as well whereas other days it an be a lot harder to fit it in.

  • Registered Users Posts: 331 ✭✭ MrMacPhisto

    I find myself constantly reaching for the Endorphin Speeds (1 & 2) for any day that there is work to be done. I have used them for 5k/10k speed, threshold, marathon pace tempo and long runs with faster bits. Extremely versatile for me. Im getting around 800kms out of them without much wear or loss of comfort. I suppose the only caveat with the speeds will be the time of year you are training. They are not great in wet or slippery conditions.

    I have moved away from Pegasus since the 37 model. They had been my staple from the 32-36 models. My easy and recovery shoe is now Asics Novablasts 1's and 2's. Same caveat as above mind you, cold/frosty conditions are not their friend. They handle wet conditions well.

    Race day will be the same as you, although I have only ever used the 4% version up to now ;)

    Good luck with your training!!

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,580 ✭✭✭ Swashbuckler

    To be honest it's only now you said it I realise how that might have appeared as a Yasso. Its purely co-incidental though. All of that reading over the past few years must be sinking in subconsciously. I went out with the mindset of running some pure threshold but not continuous. I just happened to choose 800m reps and happened to choose x10. Wanted roughly 30mins or 5 miles of threshold effort in the whole session.

    So I wasnt using it as a gauge for a marathon time. It was a controlled threshold effort throughout and I certainly could have managed each rep faster (possibly 2.50-2.55 per rep if I wanted to push it). As for the gps , yeah thats the same route as I ran my suspect 17.02 5k TT. That being said there would be a natural variance in pace anyway. I wouldnt be hitting every 800m rep bang on the money even on a track.

    As for my scepticism/worry;

    • 1E/6M/1E/6M/2E: The first Q1 session on the plan has 12 miles of marathon pace................................
    • Some of the 1k reps at 5k effort after 8 miles easy seems a tad daunting.
    • 40minE/4x2T off 2min/2x1T off 1min/1E: This just seems wrong to me. Thats 10 miles of threshold which seems to contradict Daniels guidance of no more than 10k of threshold a week. Thats in the same week as a 20 miler.

    Those are the few that jump out. In general they are high volume sessions. Hopefully the body can hold up. Maybe i'm just being a little self depreciating but it seems like a little bit of a jump to go from 55 mile weeks/two ~10-12 mile sessions to 2 x 15/16 mile sessions.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,580 ✭✭✭ Swashbuckler

    You know I thought long and hard about that very question...To put it simply I have two big sessions per week. I dont want them to fall on a weekend (Im sure some might but i dont want to set up the plan for that to be a regular thing). I also want three days recovery after Q1 and two days recovery after Q2. Ideally I want one day off - if i feel great I may take it as a recovery day although I suspect i'll need it.

    So that leaves a limited number of options for the session days. But your point was specifically related to a 1hr easy run at the weekend so.....

    If you look at the filler miles columns, generally speaking thats not a lot of miles to make up in four days. The max is 29. Spread across four days thats roughly 7 miles per day. This should handily fall within my lunch break which I've historically been very good at keeping for runs.

    Main thing for me is I really would like one day at the weekend where I get out of bed and spend the entire day with the family, kids and missus and running takes a complete back seat. There will almost definitely be some weekends where things need to shuffle though and I'm prepared for that. To be completely honest, its more of a pain for me having a run looming over me all day at the weekend than me getting it in at lunch at work.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,895 ✭✭✭ Murph_D

    You prompted me to have a look at the book again - a max of 10k for weekly T running seemed a bit low for a marathon plan, and what it actually says (p54, 3rd edition) is 10 percent. Not a huge difference, it has to be said, as this would be 7 miles in your 70 mile programme (as that session is scheduled for a peak week, i.e. 70 miles).

    It does seem like a contradiction alright, but I suppose it's conditioned by his contention that a split tempo allows you to go longer. Still a monster alright, over an hour cumulatively at your VDOT 58 pace of 6:04/mile. But you have 9 mins of recovery in there too. 😉

    I wonder though about your thinking in choosing this schedule (designed for a 70 mile peak) if your actual peak is going to be 60 miles. Maybe you'd consider using the 55 mile version and padding it out with some extra easy mileage. The corresponding T session in that plan has a more manageable 7 miles @ T pace (60E, 3x2T off 2 mins, 1T, 1E).

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,131 ✭✭✭ AuldManKing

    Just a couple of comments on the sessions in question;

    40minE/4x2T off 2min/2x1T off 1min/1E: I've read elsewhere that this is a typo from a longer mileage session - Look up Reddit logs on Daniels - people seem to just leave the 2x1T (or run them at MP)

    1E/6M/1E/6M/2E: The first Q1 session on the plan has 12 miles of marathon pace: Remember that you'll be doing this at 2 VDOT's under your target - so its not really PMP.

    Some of the 1k reps at 5k effort after 8 miles easy seems a tad daunting: I thought the same and Actually - this went well for me - you will surprise yourself. I do recall the 1st time I done the 2Q plan - I shortened the warm up to 5-6 miles.

    The CRU version of this plan that I sent you may be an easier initial few weeks if you need to 'work into it'.

    Note: I've never actually followed this to the letter - always some changes - I've ran some of the tempos at MP - I've inserted some of the Steve Way sessions - and I think JD himself never intended for these to be used as a firm plan - rather as a guide.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,580 ✭✭✭ Swashbuckler

    Cheers guys.

    Murph that was actually a really useful input. I took a look at the 55 mile plan again and I think it probably makes more sense to use those sessions and fill up the easy days to make 60 miles (if im up to it) rather than adjusting down the 70 mile plan. There isn't a huge difference in the sessions in each plan but there are some subtle differences for example the opening session on the plan is 8MP with 1T rather than 2 x 6MP. The interval sessions at R pace seem a little more manageable too.

    AMK - spot on I actually hadnt considered a couple of those points - the MP not really being MP at the start of the plan.

    This plan will definitely adjust as time goes on no doubt - happy to iron on some of the more major things now though.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,580 ✭✭✭ Swashbuckler

    Thank you!

    Agree on the Speeds. I haven't worn them for anything more than 12 miles. I think for a lot of the Daniels sessions I may lean towards the Pro or the TC if the conditions are wet. It's amazing really the way things have gone. These shoes would have been top of the range racers a few years ago. Feels like an age ago that I was wearing adizero adios 3 for all my sessions and races.

  • Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭ SuspectZero

    That 4x2+2x1 @ T session cant be right, in his 71-85 plan, its just 4x2m so must be a typo as AMK said. I also think 4x2m @ T is pushing it, as its 48:32 of running at 60 minute pace

    As Murph mentioned, JD talks about doing no more than 10% of weekly mileage at T pace and I've also read of him talking about maxing out at 40 mins of threshold work in one session so I would take those points as more important than whats wrote in the plan as mileage is a very generic measurement of a workout, it wont fit everyone!

    A way you could work around this is if you applied every plan mile at threshold as 5 minutes. So 3m at T would be 15 mins, 4x2m would be 4x10 minutes instead etc. There is also a big ol session week 16 with 8m at T so that would catch my attention as well. The weeks those sessions happen on have 60 miles so that would be 6 miles of T max by JD's writing.

    If you go:

    4x2m @T= 4x10min @ T, that would mean just shy of 6.5m of T

    The same goes for the Week 16 workout which is on a 60 mile week

    So if you used the 5 min instead of one mile across all the tempo sessions in the plan, you would still have a fluid progression of stimulus but wouldn't have the kind of overkill monster sessions. Just an idea and my .02c

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,580 ✭✭✭ Swashbuckler

    Some great inputs folks...And I do like the idea of adjusting to time based threshold if necessary too. Thanks guys. I took a look at Murphs suggestion and the 55 mile plan does look a little more manageable. I have the flexibility of sticking to the peak of 55M or adjusting up the easy miles (if I feel up to it) to make it a 60M peak. The Excel file just got a lot more complicated. 😂.

    I'm leaving the vanilla long runs open - I may go off the suggested time or may try to hit the miles noted in the cell i.e. 120mins is likely 15 miles for me but I would like to be hitting 16, 17, 18 milers. Time will tell but experience tells me my long runs wont be quicker than 8min/mile.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭ Laineyfrecks

    Great to see you logging again. Very best of luck with with your debut marathon, it's always good to have something new to aim towards for motivational reasons. I think you will enjoy the process, it's not easy but very rewarding when it goes to plan (whether it be plan A, B or C) Will follow with great interest.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,131 ✭✭✭ AuldManKing

    By the time 30th Dec comes around - you'll have log fatigue and your plan will have changed 30+ more times!!

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,580 ✭✭✭ Swashbuckler

    Haha I did think the same but you know what, its a novelty again at least...Last log update was mid 2020? I cant even remember...

    And true on the plan - part of the fun 😂

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,411 ✭✭✭ scotindublin

    Who can resist a colorful training spreadsheet. Best of luck with the plan.

    Definitely one I will be following with interest.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭ MY BAD

    I'm enjoying this log! Very interesting, keep it up. I haven't had much time to have any substantial input. I hope to follow your footsteps soon. I'm not sure how you guys manage it all family, running, everything else, work... I think Limerick half should be a good target for me then a late Autumn marathon

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,580 ✭✭✭ Swashbuckler

    Cheers S. Not sure how well I'm managing it to be honest! Probably non optimal training and the willingness to drop it if necessary....

    Also, you're somewhat new to gets easier....and it gets more manageable the more experience you and your missus get....I was in a heap with my first.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,580 ✭✭✭ Swashbuckler

    You had two young kids so that was probably 25 years ago? Different times. Back then kids were easily entertained by tipping a tyre along the road with a stick.😂 Shur colic didnt even exist back then. Neither did teething coz ye just rubbed whiskey on their gums......Handy work back then.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭ MY BAD

    Normally it's country bumkins in the sticks calling city slickers soft. Times have changed 😆

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭ Laineyfrecks

    Glad to hear my playlist mostly got your seal of approval... what were the 2 duds🤔

    As Meatloaf kinda sang 2 out of 85 ain't bad 😉

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,580 ✭✭✭ Swashbuckler

    Haha I didn't quite make it through 85 songs but of the 2hrs I did listen to I was loving it. And I'll be revisiting again for my next long run. The two were sweet like chocolate and Ann Le - two times. Two songs that have always grated on me.