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Swashbuckler's Marathon Debut?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭scotindublin

    Thanks for that link P, I will give that a read.....hoping to sit down over Christmas and put a plan together for Chicago, I know it is a long way away but gotta get planning.

    I also need to focus on my training for DCM 19, review what went well and what I need to do the top of my head not running enough MP miles stuck out like an eye sore, maybe sticking to doing both club sessions a week wasn't the best idea either.

    I am probably going to look at quite a "short" actual official marathon plan from probably mid July.

    Oh and sorry for hijacking 🤣

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,841 ✭✭✭squinn2912

    That comparasion is very well done. I’m thinking of pushing back a bit and not doing JD now. The 7 days a week is putting me off. I’ll be doing 5-6. Wouldn’t mind reading the book anyhow but I do like AM and it’s worked for me before. Thanks to you both for your insight!

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler

    Howdy scot - any target in mind for Chicago? Would love to run one of those American majors.

    You're gonna see a lot of MP miles in this log over the coming months! Daniels has plenty of them.

    Someone linked these plans recently too and I took a peek - looked decenet enough to me;

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler

    Not sure where you saw 7 days but thats certainly not the case. Basically the way the 2Q plan works is you have two sessions every week. You will also have a target mileage for any given week which is specified in the plan. Once you have your two sessions done, then you can make up the remaining easy miles any way you want. They could be spread across the remaining five days or four days or three days........Obviously the less days you run means the more miles you need to squeeze into your active days.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler

    I'm not hugely confident it will go ahead to be honest but trying to stay optimistic.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭scotindublin

    Cheers P will check that out aswell.....anything starting with a 2 will be the aim for Chicago. Will nail my colours to the mast early summer but 2.55ish or there abouts.

    Chicago 2022 and Boston 2024 is the plan but don't tell the bank man 🤣

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler

    Started the week with a plan to run two sessions and one long run. Alas silly season took priority. Still managed two decent sessions.

    Monday - Session - 10x40s Hills off jog back recover (~80-85s) (Total 9M, 70mins. Avg 7.47min/mile)

    Been a while since I had some hill work so decided to get some 40s hills in. Plan was to have a slightly conservative session given the latter part of the week was planned to be bulky enough in terms of volume. Session went really well. I was bouncing up the hills. Averaged 5.20-5.30min/mile pace. Wasnt overly exerted and had plenty left in the tank in the end. Chunked this up with a decent warmup and cooldown.

    Tuesday - Easy (10k, 51mins. Avg 8.07min/mile)

    Pretty run of the mill. Legs a little tired from the day before so kept it handy. Enjoyed this.

    Wednesday - Easy (7M, 55mins30s. Avg 7.55min/mile)

    Still a little tired. Night feeds!! I feel like I've had as many night feeds as miles ran in the past month. Wine Wednesday night..........................great idea at the time.........

    Thursday - An "at least I got out" Easy 8M , 65mins, Avg 8.08min/mile

    This was intended to be session day but there was no way that was happening. Not hungover really, just tired from crappy drunk sleep. Anything with a higher effort would probably meant the HR going through the roof. Got a run in. No biggie. Given the discipline thats about to be coming in the next few months I'm not being too hard on myself here.

    Friday Session - 4x2M at 6.30min/mile off 2.30 (Total 14.6M, 105mins. Avg 7.12min/mile)

    The plan had been two sessions and a vanilla 15M. Decided to make this one a chunkier session combined with a long run. This was a very solid session. One of the best I can remember in a while. Effort levels were bang on. Pacing was excellent. Was very happy. Nice heavy legs by the end.

    Splits were 12.59, 12.57, 13.00, 13.00.

    In fairness though this was a flat route so easy enough to keep everything consistent. Its these type of session I feel are prepping me for the Daniels plan (at least mentally anyway).

    Saturday - Recovery (5.5M, 45mins. Avg 8.17min/mile)

    Kept this very handy given the big session the day before - leggy but thats to be expected. Guinness was drank Saturday night....As sometimes happens when im drinking I have a very deep (but crappy) sleep. Woke up Sunday morning with that same hip/lower back niggle thats caught me several times in the past. I tend to move around a lot in my sleep as my body doesnt like to lie in the same position all night. When I've had a few beers this natural movement doesnt happen.

    Sunday - Easy (6.7M, 53mins. Avg 7.55min/mile)

    Got texts from a few buddies saying the walk-in clinic was open for over 40's to get the booster. Headed in around 5pm and got out for my run at 7.30pm. Felt super on the run but noticed the hip.

    Woke up Sunday night to feed the baba and felt a little sh*te and the lower back was very tight. So i'm full of sympathy for myself today. The booster absolutely knocked me for six. In bed all day today (Monday). Definitely no run. High temp and drifting in and out of sleep. Hopefully its a one day thing. The hip is as much of a worry. Last thing I need is for that to flare up again.

    Total for the week: 57 miles

    Total time on feet: 7hrs 25mins

    Total miles year to date: 2757 miles (hoping to hit the 2800 mark by the end of the year)

    Marathon plan starts on the 30th assuming my body plays ball. Need to be extremely careful between now and then. Last thing I need to be doing is starting into a marathon plan on the back foot.

    Dont forget to cast your votes in Oonegatives thread for A/R Awards 2021.......

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭Laineyfrecks

    Take it easy P, you need to be in full health starting your marathon block. Plenty of rest & fluids, feel better soon🤗

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭scotindublin

    Look after that hip P, do you have an exercise regime for that? Like E says need to make sure you are feeling good going into the marathon block.

    Hope you feel better after the booster; I have mine Thursday, be good to get her done.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,299 ✭✭✭ariana`

    Yeah as the other said watch that hip. Sleep, or lack thereof, is undoubtedly going to be a factor for you. It will hit your recovery when things start to build up. Hopefully it's a situation that will be gradually improving, though if i remember with my own it's usually one step forwards followed very quickly by three steps backwards 🙈 But come Spring at least there should be less lurgies going around amongst the little ones 🤞 Rest up, mind yourself.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler

    Cheers folks. Feeling much better today in terms of the booster. Hip feels much better too but i think ill be safe and take another rest day. Maybe have a tester 30 or 40mins tomorrow.

    @scotindublin yeah I have plenty of reactive measures..I tend not to be great at the preventative ones. Although as times going on I'm convinced this isn't training load related and is due to drunken sleep! It's always been after a night sleep where the back has felt tight, usually when I've been dead to the world.

    @ariana` we've really had a bad run of it in the house this year. Since my 2 year olds birthday (Sept 12th) at least one person in the house has been sick and at peak it was four. Only in the past week has there been zero sickness since my own germ started passing. We also had covid in the house but that was isolated to just one of the kids thank god. As for sleep improving....hopefully.. although I'm not hugely optimistic in the near term...she's still fairly needy at night even with two very experienced parents!

  • Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭MrMacPhisto

    You are ticking along very nicely, but I would just be cautious about "training" for the start of the training plan. There is no need to be knocking the first few weeks sessions of the plan out of the park. It would be much better to ease yourself in and start the plan fresh rather than slightly tired. 10-4 weeks to go will be when you will bank the hard yards.

    I am looking forward to seeing your progress :D

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler

    It's funny you should say that..was thinking about that very subject this morning..I think the hip giving out to me is probably just gonna force me to take it handy enough up to the 30th. So at the very least, if the hip plays ball I'd expect to be reasonably fresh come the 30th. Plus the 2Q daniels plan really forces you to go slower than your current fitness for the first few weeks of the plan.

    The priority for me now really is to come out of Xmas not ten stone heavier and completely out of shape 😄..and then hopefully build nicely into the plan.

  • Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭MrMacPhisto

    Sounds like a sensible plan to me, enjoy Christmas and the easy running, and then knuckle down. Perfect time of the year to be starting out on a new adventure.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler

    Monday - Rest

    As above I was knocked for six with the booster. In bed all day and night. Irrespective I wouldn't have run with the lower back/hip anyway. Plenty of stretching/hip/lower back stuff.

    Tuesday - Rest

    Over the booster and hip feeling a little better. Kept it sensible and rested. Plenty of stretching/hip/lower back stuff.

    Wednesday - 30mins easy

    A marked improvement today so went out for an easy jaunt. No major complaints from the hip but lower back a little tight. Will see how it reacts later but initial signs are good. Enjoyed the first couple of miles but felt pretty weak towards the end. Still the booster lingering I expect. Anyone have similar experiences?

    So this is probably my last log update til next week. First and foremost happy Christmas to all of you and your families. You have all been a great bunch both in terms of supporting my own running but also to share your own experiences with us all on here. I love this place.

    Please be careful over the next few days. One visit could mean isolation for Christmas. Not to be scaremongering but the sheer amount of cases I've heard about amongst friends in the last few days is unbelievable. Some friends of mine will now be isolating alone until the new year. So mind yourselves, be careful the next few days and enjoy Christmas day and all the festivities that go with it. I'm hoping to see my folks on Stephens Day all going well.

    Take care folks. Should hopefully be back on here next week logging the start of my very first marathon block and summarising how 2021 went.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler

    Thursday 23rd - Easy 10k

    Friday 24th - Easy 10k

    Saturday 25th - Rest

    Sunday 26th - Easy 7.4M

    Monday 27th - Rest

    Tuesday 28th - Easy 8M

    Wednesday 29th - Easy 5M

    Rather than talk about each run individually I'll just summarise the Christmas period.

    Overall as you can see it's been all Easy running and rest days. Good advice from MacPhisto although I don't think I would have fancied a session. Although the post above from him really put my mind at ease that I didn't need to be worrying myself about staying in tip top shape over the Xmas and trying to squeeze in sessions. The hip is 100% fine since.

    The rest days were mostly planned. Xmas day is always a day I take off so my wife doesn't have to hear me talking about trying to get a run in. It's her one day off a year. Lol. The 27th Rest day was after a monster Stephens day drinking session with my family back home.

    Overall I've been pretty good this Xmas in terms of excess. I didn't really overindulge that much and didn't consume too much booze. I don't notice any real weight gain .

    I have found the Christmas stressful in general. Between managing the three kids and all this antigen testing and coming and going it's been a drain. Like Christmas day was crazy. We met up with some family. All antigen tests were clear in advance. Felt like we were moving country we had so much stuff. I guess being off work I've been exposed to just how much work it is to manage three kids especially a really moody and stroppy two year old. Our newborn has been an absolute gem but she has the same demands and needs as any newborn. By the run on the 29th I'll be honest I was just drained. First time I've felt that weak on a run between stress, underhydrated and poor food management! Heart rate was about 10bpm up on normal. Not a great feeling knowing I was starting the marathon block on the 30th.

    So there you go. Very low mileage week but that's fine. I'm more concerned with managing the work,life balance in the medium term.

    Finished up the year on 2810ish miles. 348 days running. To be honest a good chunk of those rest days have been December! Very happy with how the year went. I'd like to do a deep dive on my year but really it was a case of more miles, one race and really good consistency. I fear some of that has been offset by the natural disruption that comes with a newborn. My sleep has been very hit and miss during Christmas mainly due to wanting to give my missus some respite. It doesn't help though when your off night ends up being a drinking session and then you're back on duty the next day so you are constantly chasing back that lost sleep.

    So there you have it. The marathon block began on the 30th and my next update will reflect that. Im excited but at the same time apprehensive about balancing it all.

    Some minor things I want to keep an eye on (not new years resolutions);

    1. Diet . Less sweets and crisps and make sure I have a decent breakfast every morning.

    2. Drink more water.

    3. Drink less coffee.

    4. Especially make sure all of the above are applied on the big session days.

    Happy New Year folks. My new years eve was spent having a nice, chilled , alcohol free (for once!) night with family. Nothing too hectic. Still only got three hours sleep though. 😆

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,376 ✭✭✭diego_b

    Just catching up on your new log P, I had neglected anything that I had bookmarking previously. Best of luck for the year ahead!

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler

    I'm well into my first week of marathon training (what on earth have I signed up for!) but my plan is to update here on a weekly basis. Of course if there are any other interactions i'll be dipping in and out. There's just a few things I wanted to note before my first "official" log update on the training. It will hopefully make it easier for non Daniels aficionados to follow. Anyone that has looked at a Daniels plan can testify that they can look pretty complicated to follow. They're not once you put in a little bit of groundwork at the beginning.

    • I'm following the 2Q Daniels 41-55 mile plan. Rightly or wrongly I dont necessarily plan to rigidly stick to that mileage range. I'm hoping to peak at over 60 miles. I'll see how my body is responding over time and will adjust accordingly. If it needs to be 41-55 then so be it.
    • I'm basing my paces off a VDOT , which is in turn based off recent race performance. Recent race performance indicates I have a VDOT of 58. Daniels recommends you drop a couple of VDOT for the first 6 weeks of the block and slowly build up to target paces as the plan progresses. These VDOTs/paces are guides. I do plan on being conservative if necessary. So if I dont hit the paces, I dont hit the paces. For me this is all about trying to get the right stimulus, dont get injured and make it to the start line.
    • This plan is basically constructed of two big sessions a week (referred to as Q1 and Q2). Daniels has a guide on what fraction of peak mileage you want to hit in each week. The Q1 and Q2 runs are set by the plan. Then the runner fills out the remaining miles themselves however they see fit. So for example, week 1 Daniels recommends you hit 0.8 x peak mileage which would be 44 miles. As the mileage in the Q1 and Q2 are prescribed by the plan the remaining miles are easy miles in the rest of the week. For me, my plan is to have 6 days running initially and see how I go. I will likely need a couple of 7 day weeks but we will see. I'm not rigid on that. SO i'll have two session days and four easy days.
    • The terminology (using some examples);
      • 2E - this means two miles easy
      • 2T - two miles threshold
      • 2M - two miles at marathon pace
      • Some sessions are at interval pace which i'm taking as 5k effort.
    • I'm hoping to get one race in along the way. I had planned for two but I just dont want to mess around with the plan too much. Adare 10k will probably need to be dropped. Its a big week in the plan that week with one long vanilla run and a 12M at marathon pace. I dont want to drop either of those. Mallow 10M in March is on my radar. I'll see how training is going.
    • My updates will be Thursday to Wednesday. I know this is a bit backwards and not the usual Sun-Sat or Mon-Sun that people do but its how im visualizing it. My Q1 session is a Thursday and in my mind that's when my week starts. Obviously things will shuffle a bit towards the end to accound for a Sunday race.
    • Initially i'm going to keep the sessions on relatively flat routes until I find my feet. I plan on having the vanilla long runs on hilly routes. I also plan on incorporating as much of the marathon route in my training as possible. I'm lucky that I have that luxury.

    That's about it I think. I must say i'm excited to have a purpose and goal to the training again. I've trained to train for long enough now. I don't expect this to be easy though, especially judging by the two sessions this week already! God knows how i'll manage the guts of the plan when it really gets tough.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,299 ✭✭✭ariana`

    Thanks, as someone who hasn't ever looked at JD plans it's good to get all that background.

    I'm wondering about doing the vanilla long runs on hilly routes. Is this a JD recommendation? Is your marathon particularly hilly? It seems to me if the answer is 'no' to the previous questions than you are adding an element of difficulty that is possibly unnecessary. I'd be wary of adding additional stuff into your first marathon block.

    Best of luck with the training, I hope it all goes well for you, I'll be following with great interest.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler

    You know what thats a good point and I probably misrepresented what I meant. I plan on running the vanilla runs through some of the hillier sections of the actual marathon route or at least incorporating the actual route as much as possible. I can't actually recall if Daniels makes any recommendations around the vanilla run approach.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,376 ✭✭✭diego_b

    Interesting plan, I have a JD book on my shelf for a few years but never used it to date. Nice to get the background as to the structure of the plans.

    Is one of the Q runs typically the weekly long run? Or do you make the run up from the easy mileage remaining?

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭Bluesquare

    Looking forward to reading the log and following your progress .

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭ReeReeG

    Best of luck with it, I followed a Daniels base building plan towards the end of 2020, and then started a 10k plan around this time last year. Enjoyed them! I found the mileage and sessions built up in a very manageable way.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler

    I should say that the Q1/Q2 approach is purely for this specific plan. Daniels also has a bunch of other plan styles (Novice, 4-week cycle, 5-week cycle, time based etc). I chose this specific plan as it gives me flexibility on filling out my week and how I can squeeze things around work and family.

    To your specific question - there isn't a weekly vanilla long run per se. Theres a vanilla long run every three weeks which is the Q1 session for that specific week. The other weeks all have long runs but with lots of "stuff" - mainly threshold and marathon paced.

    So for example my Q1 and Q2 sessions on week 1 have both had "stuff". My other four days in week one have been 2 x 5 mile recoveries, 2 x 10k easy, then one days rest. I wont see a vanilla long run til week 3, then again on week 6, week 9, week 12 and week 15. They get progressively longer.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler

    I'm not gonna lie - week 1 already felt like a biggie but we'll have that for my update Thursday 😀

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭Laineyfrecks

    Cheers for the JD background, I would know nothing about it myself. Best of luck with the plan I will follow with great interest.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,376 ✭✭✭diego_b

    Very interesting, definitely a plan to fit around non running life is crucial. I like to see the various marathon approaches that differ from the traditional lsr weekend run. In my own experience of marathon training the midweek sessions were often equally as challenging as the long run. I preferred long runs that had some quality to them, either with marathon pace in some of it or else a long run that would require significant pickup over the last few miles.

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler

    Well you're gonna see A LOT of that in the next 17 weeks. AMK's log is also a super one , especially at the moment as he's deep in a Daniels plan.

    Daniels is challenging though. Its definitely one of the more aggressive plans.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,454 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D

    Good luck with this. Great to be able to train on the actual course. Wouldn’t worry at all about rolling hills on a vanilla LR or even a MP session, as long as it’s not Everest! We need to be able to maintain M effort on the hills. I’m a fan of Daniels although I’ve never used the marathon schedules. It will be tough alright, but nothing you can’t handle and you are so well prepared. Enjoy!