Swashbuckler's Marathon Debut?

Cleanman

My longest ever race was 8k so I have absolutely nothing to contribute! Just want to say I'm enjoying the discussion and thanks for sharing.

Swashbuckler

Great Limerick Marathon 2022 – Daniels 2Q Plan Week 2 – (06-Jan to 12-Jan)

Thanks again to everyone for the comments over the past couple of pages. Extremely helpful. I'm learning a lot from this process and its mostly thanks to you folks.

Following on from last week I was feeling decent coming into week 2 of the plan

Thursday, Jan 6th

Plan:2E/3T/40mins Easy/2T/1E

Actual:2E/3T/40mins Easy/2T/1E

Shoe: Saucony Endorphin Pro

Mixed weather conditions again for this one. Was starting to feel like the session weather gods were against me! A more "normal" 2 mile warmup this week. Legs felt decent enough on the warmup so I had pretty much fully recovered from the previous session. This was a very solid effort and a little more in my comfort zone than the previous week. Managed to avoid the worst of the weather for the 3T but was hit a little for the 2T. Found it "interesting" picking back up the pace after 40 minutes of easy running. Very good mix in these sessions and they certainly keep you guessing as to how your legs are going to react. All in all five miles of decent threshold work and I made a point of not forcing it. There wasnt much looking at the watch apart from gauging pace vs effort initially.

2E: 8.08/8.01

3T: 6.15/6.09/6.13

40mins Easy: 7.48/8.01/8.09/8.01/8.04

2T: 6.17/6.16

1E: 8.02

Total: 13.1 miles, 1hr37mins

Friday, Jan 7th

Plan: Easy

Actual: Easy 5 miles

Leggy again. Less so than the previous Friday's recovery run but yesterdays session was better managed than the previous weeks.

Total: 5 miles, 42mins, 8.24min/mile

Saturday, Jan 8th

Plan: Rest

Actual: Rest

For now the Saturday rest day is suiting me. Switch off from all things work and running and just focus on the family for a day.

Sunday, Jan 9th 

Plan: Easy plus strides

Actual: Easy 7.1 miles including 6x20s Strides, 59mins, 8.21min/mile

Felt super on this run. First time wearing the aftershockz earphones. Love them. They sit outside the ear so added safety in that you can hear your surroundings. Thanks to Eilish McColgan for that deal! Legs felt good on the strides.

Monday, Jan 10th

Plan: 6E/5x3mins at 5k effort off 2mins/6x1min at mile effort off 2mins/2E

Actual: 6E/5x3mins at 5k effort off 2mins/6x1min at mile effort off 2mins/2E

Shoe: Nike 4%

To me, on paper this looked like a manageable enough session. Cocky 10k guy here. The session taught me some manners. I knew the 6 miles "warmup" would change the dynamic of the session and indeed it did. Once the 6 miles were ran the legs were a little fatigued and then all of a sudden the need to switch it up. This was hard, I wont lie. I tried to keep it as honest as I could so I maintained a jog between the 3min 5k efforts. By the fourth and fifth I was working. Kept it to effort and ignored the pace. Rough target would have been 5.40 for the 5k efforts and "fast" for the mile efforts. I tend not to bother with pace or pace targets for 1min or shorter. Made sure that I didnt sacrifice form.

For the 6x1min I have to say the legs were fairly "leggy". I decided to walk the recoveries for these - screw you Jack Daniels. I should add that 2min recovery in generous enough. All in all I'm happy with how the session went. I just expected it to be easier. How wrong was I. Seems like there are no easy sessions in this plan. 😂

6E: 8.11/8.09/8.12/8.05/8.04/8.10

5x3mins average paces for each: 5.39/5.36/5.42/5.45/5.44

6x1mins average paces for each: 5.07/5.17/5.20/5.12/5.29/5.19

2E: 8.35/8.21

Total: 13.1 miles, 1hr46mins

Tuesday, Jan 11th

Plan: Easy

Actual: Easy 5M, 43mins, 8.33min/mile

As leggy as it gets but an honest slow recovery

Wednesday, Jan 12th

Plan: Easy

Actual: Easy 7.1 miles, 56.40, 7.58min/mile

Calf muscles a little sore but big improvement on yesterday. Wore the TC to help things along and dropped the strides. No need for them today. All about recovering for week 2.

_______________________________________________________________________

Planned mileage for the week: 48

Actual mileage for the week: 50.3

Time on feet: 6hrs 44mins

Miles in the block to date: 101.3

Number of MP miles: 7

Number of Threshold miles: 10

Comments

• Speed stuff was hard. Next one of those is in three weeks time.
• Solid week again. This is a hard plan though, for sure.
• Nutrition was good again this week.
• Sleep is improving. Getting a decent block at night now thanks to the newborn settling a bit.
• Work has been ok - not manic. So that has helped.
• Enjoying this process and especially the interaction on here with inputs from everyone. Shoulda ran one of these marathons sooner 😋

Next weeks sessions;

Q1: 120mins Easy

Q2: 6E/2T/2minE/2T/2minE/1T/2E

babacool

Think I mentioned it before: welcome to the dark side and enjoy your first marathon 🙂

what I find interesting is that no comments on the shoes that you use for each run/session. It is something I personally monitor closely just to see the benefit/advantages etc and to therefore be able to pick the right shoe for the right session and yet still be able to have a better version in store for race day. Hence, how much do you monitor that?

Swashbuckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118464045#Comment_118464045

Cheers @babacool

I'm not sure I fully follow what you mean. The runners I use are listed in the log update for each session above. I generally don't list them for easy runs as it's usually the same shoe for all of those.

In terms of monitoring which to use for each run that's easy for me at this stage. Endorphin pro and fuelcell TC for big marathon paced or threshold sessions. TC for long easy runs. Endorphin Speeds for sharper speedy stuff. Next% or alphafly for racing.

babacool

Ha, completely missed that. Was too focused on seeing a comment on how it felt rather than just the mentioning of it. Apologies!

Murph_D

Nice work. That’s another tasty T session next week alright. The variety in Daniels - within the session and from session to session - is terrific.

babacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118422938#Comment_118422938

Hi, just wondering how did you determine those paces? Is that as per race calculator or based on recent race results or just a feel of what it should be?

babacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118459909#Comment_118459909

I’m careful here and would only go with a pacer if I known him/them and therefore have faith in them. It seems so easy to pace someone yet only a few can get this right. Ideally the pacer adjusts to the people running with him (for obvious reason that’s not really possible in a bigger race) so ideally there are a few pacers with different approaches on the day. Hardest part then would be to figure out which strategy will suit you.

in a marathon I would therefore not go with the 3hrs pacer unless I’m aiming for a 2:55 and faster. If 3hrs is the goal the first 10-15k I would stick with the 3:10 pacer and then pick up the pace. But that’s just me 🙂

scotindublin

For both my Dublin Marathons I ran with the pacers, in 2016 I went with the 3.40 pacer as in my novice runner brain I thought I could maybe run this time,realistically I should have gone with the 3.50. The pace groups in Dublin are massive, this poses its own challenges with space on the road and water stations etc and as I picked the wrong group it was disheartening when then pulled away. For 2019 I ran with the 3.10 pacers for the first 5/6 miles then pulled slightly ahead because of the issues highlighted above. I assume the pace groups in Limerick won't be as large but would imagine there will be a decent sub 3 contingent.

Once you have decided on your planned time maybe stick with the 3 hour pacer for the first 8-10 miles just to get you on track then push on if you feel strong. Also don't be afraid to ask the pacers what their strategy is going to be.

It is different running in a big pacing group and is probably something to try in a tune up race if possible.

C

babacool

have to say I love this blog. So many things to learn/read/talk about (and apologies for the questions so far 😁 more probably to come).

a bit of sharing from my end:

1. A mistake I made in the past and still see being done by others (who then wonder why they “fail” in a race) is to train at the wrong paces. Ie running a 10k in 35min using a super shoe and then feel like using that as the prescribed training pace when it says “at 10k effort” not using the same shoe. It just means you are working too hard on the day.
2. we all (unless being coached) seem to underestimate the importance of fatigue legs. We put in mileage during a training week that we wouldn’t do before a race and yet we are aiming to hit race pace or faster on workouts. Again I found that contra productive. I personally go by (and frankly only take coaches who share a similar philosophy) let’s have the legs really tired before workouts and slow down the pace then aiming for a fast one. Sure it doesn’t look as impressive on strava but it will benefit you on race day!
3. shoes (my favourite topic next to nutrition and hilly routes): last year (well 2nd half 2020 into first half 2021) 30% of my mileage had been done in carbon shoes. Felt great. Sessions flew by and paces looked amazing. But improvement wasn’t there at least not as much as I would have hoped for. I’m now back to train in hard, stiff runners the more worn down the better so the legs are not getting used to all this softness and cushioning. It also means again my paces are slower to avoid injuries but overall it brought me back on track in regards to improving. Therefore I personally would recommend to not do any workout/run in any carbon shoe and keep those for racing (or at least not that often. Sometimes it is good to throw one in just to be good on the mental side 😁).
4. nutrition: hardest part to get right before a marathon. So far I really only got it right in 2018. 2019 close enough but not perfect. Happy to share more on what I did/would suggest but only if interested (last 2 marathons I didn’t suffer from any cramping which is probably partly down to the training but also nutrition as e.Coli mentioned on a different post).
5. training on empty: a favourite of mine and a topic runners can’t agree on (and that’s fine). I love running on empty. Training the body to push through the wall during every workout. It helps me to be ready and embrace the wall mentally and trust me if you really race a marathon the wall will come. Then again, I also understand those who say running on empty is stupid as it just means you need a longer recovery.
6. hilly routes: I’m not talking about hiking in the mountains but hilly roads with a constant up and down to me is the best thing ever especially for workouts and if limerick is a hilly course I would suggest to aim for a 18-20mile loop for long runs that has a similar elevation as the full course with the same amount of inclines. I have the same for DCM and again so far has worked well for me.
7. races: I’m a big fan of adding races to the plan but only at the right moment, distance and knowing that I will not be in PB shape for those as the marathon is the big target. It helps though to practice the race day setup. Overcoming the anxiety and stress that e.coli mentioned. Even if the plan doesn’t mention a race you could still throw one in but take it as a hard training effort.
8. most importantly - enjoy your first marathon. Don’t go out too hard. Enjoy the first half and then give it a good blast! It’s the one thing I regret running wise that I didn’t do that on my first marathon and ever since hadn’t have the chance to do so!!

best of luck with the rest of your journey. Looking forward to follow your progress!

Swashbuckler

I'm struggling to keep up with my own log! 😂

It didnt occur to me first but I think I know you in real life @babacool . Disappointed it didnt click with me sooner. Welcome to Boards! Maybe you might start logging your own training. I know we'd get plenty of learning from you.

I'll try and address some of the points above without quoting all the posts;

Where do I get my paces from?

Its a combination of a few things. "Recent" 10k was a 36.22. Using the Daniels method, you have a look-up table which gives you a Vdot and paces for that time. For marathon training Daniels has you spending the first 6 weeks of the block at a Vdot lower than that hence , less aggressive paces. I've gone extra conservative and dropped two Vdots so my paces are slower still. For example , my race time would suggest a threshold arond 6min/mile. I'm training to a 6.15min/mile threshold for the first 6 weeks of the plan.......That being said - having trained with E.coli for several years I've learned to run by feel. I've always been that type of runner. So the paces are somewhat irrelevant. I'm running to how I feel. As you can see from the last log update my 5 x 3min session at 5k effort ended up with paces closer to my 10k pace as I was trying to maintain 5k effort.

Pacing the marathon

Some great advice over the last few pages and will be revisiting it all in April. Its certainly too soon to have a firm plan but was looking for opinions and suggestions. I know the sub 3 pacer - Dermot Kearns. He has paced Limerick marathon for years. I'd certainly get in touch with him before the day. He also was pacing when shotgunmcos ran sub 3. My recollection is Dermot doesnt like to be on the edge and likes to have clear daylight from the target time so I expect he'll go through halfway in 1.29 or 1.29.30. I'd be comfortable in the group. And I know Limerick well so i'd separate myself from the group for the water stations. Right now my training marathon pace is 6.40-6.45. I'm gonna see how that feels for the next few marathon pace sessions. If it feels good then I wouldnt worry too much about going out with the sub 3 group as 1.29/1.30 should feel "comfortable enough".

I'll address the most recent post separately.

shotgunmcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118465684#Comment_118465684

#2 Agree and its the key component of the Hanson principle. I have Daniels but have not digested it but the cumulative fatigue of those sessions I see on this and AMKs logs cannot as you say, be underestimated. Great to train and hit MP on tired legs but its better to feel out marathon effort rather than focus on pace all the time. If you do, you best be in tune with your body to understand when you are starting to overreach

#3 I ran a 1:30/1:28 on a pair of Peg 35s so no comment really!

#4 So so individual that I would literally shy away from any advice on the topic. Practice your race week nutrition in advance

#5 I love breakfast but I like to get a bit more fat adapted for a marathon block. I also love dawn runs. Its never on empty really, you have plenty enough glycogen and weeks of fat stores to get you through any early morning run. Again all individual but I will go to 2 hours empty, maybe with a couple of gels in case the wall comes. It is great practice for a "wall" though and really sets a specific type of mental tenacity that you don't get pushing out an interval.

#6 Basically don't be a fair weather runner. Train for the course you will encounter on the day. You don't need to do hill reps, unless you want to build strength or you are running a mountain marathon. Limerick specifically is not hilly. Just a pincher of a drag at 25m.

#7 What is the point really of paying for, organising logistics etc to do a race at a training effort? Fair play if you can be disciplined enough to limit it on the day! This probably should have a thread of its own.

#8 Already chatted with you on WattsApp about this and couldn't agree more. Enjoy it! You won't even remember it if you look at your watch a thousand times! The 3hr pacer for Limerick is as solid as they come (if he is pacing and not running). It will allow you to cruise to the point where you decide to break away

babacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118466044#Comment_118466044

True - certain topics you can argue/discuss/ agree/disagree/ fall out over and so on and sometimes best to avoid unless approached with an open mind. That said, with regard to nutrition I personally only talk about the basics. Wouldn’t go into “you need to eat/drink that and that etc” but more to the point, before a marathon: at least 4 weeks out don’t drink any alcohol. Alcohol just basically means the more you drink the less you can eat. Also no chocolate at least 6 weeks prior the main race. It helps to keep up the useful and well needed fuel without gaining additional weight.

#7 I’m not talking about paying for races 😁. I’m a big supporter of county races to represent your club.

babacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118465887#Comment_118465887

lets see re own post. I do get too addicted to those things and dedicated and end up investing a lot of time which then takes away time from family 😁. But yea, I might start one as a lead up to my “last dance” which I aim for DCM 2022 (will see what I’m going to do after that but for now I might give this long distance running lark a break 😂).

Swashbuckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118465684#Comment_118465684

My own two cents of some of your points;

#1: I'd consider myself pretty good at training to effort rather than paces irrespective of shoes. I'm probably in close to low 36min shape for 10k right now maybe a little quicker on the right course, on the right day in the right shoes. My current training paces are actually slower than that.

#2: I dont disagree but again - i usually go by feel and let the pace will be what it needs to be.

#3: That ship has sailed i'm afraid. No going back for me anyway. I dont wear the carbon shoes for nice looking strava splits though. The recovery from the sessions is much better with the carbon plated shoes. I struggled with that for a while as it felt like cheating but i'm over it! I'm still not quite at the point where i'll wear Next% or Alphafly in training though.

#4: Nutrition - i've made the mistake in the past of trying to be perfect at everything all at once. Nutrition is something ive made changes to but not major overhauls. Keeping this one simple for now. Better quality food, more of it, less crap - struggling with the less crap part but doing well with the more good part 😂

#5: Training on empty isnt really an option for me with evening sessions in this block. I have plenty of years of early long runs without breakfast though. This is another thing I wouldnt overthink for now. If anything I want to eat more, not less.

#6: The course profile will be part of my training plan for as many runs as possible. Definitely the 20 milers.

#7: Yeah the races thing was discussed a couple of pages back. I'll see. It's likely i'll save fancy tinkering for future marathon blocks. Just want to be sensible on this one.

#8: Yeah I think that will be the approach alright. General consensus is take it handy for the first 10-13.1 miles.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118465684#Comment_118465684

Some super stuff here. Would perhaps fit really well onto the Sub3 2022 thread? I, for one, would love to hear more about the nutrition side of things. Shoes as well cause I’m very bog standard!

babacool

I honestly wouldn’t want to spam swashbuckler’s thread. Point me towards a thread where either or both is discussed and I’m happy to share my experiences/ point of view 🙂

Swashbuckler

Thanks @babacool

This is the sub 3 2022 thread although, knowing your history your advice would just as much belong in a sub 2.50 thread too;

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058226838/the-2022-sub3-thread

This is a thread on supershoes;

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058227679/supershoes-training-racing-or-both

I'm not aware of a nutrition specific thread.

Kellygirl

Hi Swashbuckler, it’s been so so long since I’ve been on Boards but started browsing 3 nights ago and spotted this log … and read the whole thing over the past few evenings. Makes for great reading.

I’m delighted you are finally going for the marathon distance and looking forward to following your training. Best of luck with it.

Swashbuckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118470730#Comment_118470730

It's been so long since ive seen that Boards username! Thanks a mill K.

AuldManKing

Plan:2E/3T/40mins Easy/2T/1E

Actual:2E/3T/40mins Easy/2T/1E

I do think these type of sessions are really good for Marathon Training as picking up the pace again after the 40 mins easy really makes the legs feel like the later stages of a Marathon - it adds to the feeling of running on 'tired feeling' legs.

Great stuff so far - don't sweat the small stuff just yet - plenty of time.

babacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118472429#Comment_118472429

the only really "issue" i have with those sessions is - they are boring as in seems like they never end! Especially them 40min EZ. I prefer breaking them up and alternate the paces slightly as let's face it we hardly ever have a race at consistent pace. There is always something like "being stuck in traffic" for a bit.

MY BAD

I wonder is there an audio version of this log available?

Swashbuckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488967#Comment_118488967

There is but it takes up 3TB of space.

AuldManKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118474362#Comment_118474362

Yes - but this is the plan SB is following - there is a thought process in how the sessions are designed.

Alternate paces are a fantastic tool - but none of it in the JD plan.

Swashbuckler

Yeah as AMK said the JD plans are built this way for a reason. Lots of miles before you ask the legs to start working at pace. It's not something i'm personally used to and has come as a bit of a surprise. It's one thing reading these plans on paper. It's a whole different thing running those sessions and actually feeling what they do to you. I can see how it prepares you for the marathon. No harm in a change though. At the very worst i'll learn something about a very different approach to what I'm used to (or get injured...). When I jump back to 10k there would be some JD principles I'd take with me for sure.

babacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118489125#Comment_118489125

Ah I’m not questioning it, I just don’t like those runs. That’s all. Doesn’t mean I won’t do them if part of the plan, which is the main thing: don’t cherry pick. In a well structured plan every session, every run has its reason. One won’t really work without the other 🙂

AuldManKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118489692#Comment_118489692

I think I cherry Pick certain things and dont follow a plan to the letter - I make some things harder and some things easier.

It gets messy then when you become confused about how to handle latter weeks as you need progression - and if you've already made 1 run harder the previous week - you tend to try to make more sessions harder or include totally different sessions (well I do anyway) in order to have progression.

But - I do think I'm getting better at how I change the planned run - case in point coming this week.

JD has a workout of 8m Easy + 5x1km

I'm changing it to 2E/25mins MP / 5x4mins / 25 mins MP/ 2E : This still has a speed element to it, similar to JD's plan - but sandwiched between 2 portions of MP. I'm doing this session as its one of my 3 goto sessions that I like to do each Mara cycle.

AuldManKing

We should all just post our updates on SB's log - keep it handy to have it all in one place :)

Swashbuckler

And the 2022 log of the Year goes to...............🤣🤣🤣

Swashbuckler

Great Limerick Marathon 2022 – Daniels 2Q Plan Week 3 – (13-Jan to 19-Jan)

Bit of a meh week this week. One where I was questioning my choice of plan! Is it meant to be this tough on week 3........more on that later....lol

Thursday, Jan 13th

Plan: Easy 120mins or 16M (lesser of the two)

Actual: Easy 120 mins

Shoe: NB Fuelcell TC (a no brainer for this type of run for me)

120 mins Easy running. No bother right? That's my bread and butter almost every week since 2018 - weekly long runs ranging between 12 and 15 miles. Different prospect on tired legs especially after coming off the speed stuff the Monday before. It's funny. I felt reasonably recovered by the Wednesday albeit the calf muscles were a little sore. Its not that this run was very tough but it was just a bit of a mental slog. Aerobically I felt fine throughout. All the miles were in or around 8min/miles. Not by choice, just by how I felt. I tend to not really pay attention to pace on these. Its more in the legs, hamstrings and hips I felt it really. Had me questioning how 26.2 miles would feel at marathon pace! But trust the process etc etc. I took the route out the UL/Vistakon which includes a portion of the route I wouldnt be all that familiar with. Some sneaky pulls and drags out that side of town which surprised me. This was late at night which probably added to the general malaise. All in all it was fine, nothing spectacular but fine. I guess these runs are a lot easier in company. God help me for the 20 milers.

Total: 15 miles, 2hrs

Friday, Jan 14th

Plan: Easy

Actual: Easy 5 miles

As is becoming a common theme with this weekly run I felt leggy.....Although not as leggy as previous weeks which shouldbt be surprising given the fact the previous day was vanilla rather than a session.

Total: 5 miles, 42mins, 8.22min/mile. Nice low HR throughout (128 avg)

Saturday, Jan 15th

Plan: Rest

Actual: Rest

Busy day with the kids - playgrounds and the likes - very enjoyable. One of the few days where they were on top form. Wish I could bottle those days.

Sunday, Jan 16th 

Plan: Easy plus strides

Actual: Easy 8.5 miles including 8x20s Strides, 70mins, 8.16min/mile

Felt great on this one (again seems to be a common theme week on week). Strides felt good. A little higher mileage than previous week as this is a higher mileage week in the plan. Crappy sleep that night and woke Monday morning knowing it was gonna be a long day. Slept a little awkwardly too - was tending to our sleeping buddy in the cosleeper beside the bed. I wont complain. I cherish those moments. Nothing quite like seeing your newborn unsettled and once you hold her hand she drifts back to sleep with your hand against her cheek. Give me lack of sleep any day of the week if thats what I'm awake with.

Monday, Jan 17th

Plan: 6E/2T/2minE/2T/2minE/1T/2E

Actual: 6E/4x1T off 1min/2E (changed vs the plan)

Shoe: Adidas Adios Pro

I knew all day that this was gonna be a struggle. I was tired, creaky, a little sore. Its funny how lack of sleep can compund several other things and all of a sudden it feels like you're completely unfit. I had the session programmed into the watch but contemplated several things.

Should I skip it entirely. Very rarely an option I take so that was a quick no.

Should I just run easy. Ok this was an option and I said I would assess after 6 miles.

Should I shorten the 6 mile warmup. Felt like there wasnt much point as it wouldnt give me much. The threshold reps were always going to be the difficult part and I felt like even on a two mile warmup I would feel the same.

Should I try do as much of it as possible and abandon if necessary. Maybe.

So I took off with the mindset I would decide what to do after 6 miles. Felt meh on the 6 miles. May as well have been wearing flip flops as it didnt feel like the Adios Pro gave me nay physical or mental boost. Got to the end of the 6 miles and did some activations and leg swings to see if I could get some enthusiasm going. Decided at that point I didnt want to attempt two mile threshold reps. Decided to cancel the pre programmed session on the watch and changed it to 5 x 1T off 1 min and see how many reps I'd manage.

Surprisingly when I took off I didnt feel all that terrible. Effort level felt ok although legs were tired.

Long story short I got to the end of the fourth rep and said, alright P call it a day, park it and move on. If I had chanced a fifth rep the legs would have turned to jelly so it was the right call. Live to fight another day.

6E: 8.09/8.18/8.19/8.10/8.17/8.12

4x1T: 6.07/6.15/6.14/6.11 (heart rate on these was bang in the middle of the range so was happy with that at least)

2E: 8.30/8.30

Total: 12.4 miles, 1hr36mins

Tuesday, Jan 18th

Plan: Easy

Actual: Easy 5 miles, 43mins, 8.36min/mile

Covered the watch, hit go and just moved around at whatever felt like recovery. 123bpm avg which tells me it was genuine recovery. I expected this run to be more of a slog. It was fine. Leggy but fine. At this rate I'm tempted to change the title of this log to "Leggy".

Wednesday, Jan 19th

Plan: Easy plus strides

Actual: Easy 7 miles, 58mins, 8.17min/mile

Better than yesterday which is obviously good. Kept it slower than usual and skipped the strides.

_______________________________________________________________________

Planned mileage for the week: 54

Actual mileage for the week: 53

Time on feet: 6hrs 32mins

Miles in the block to date: 154.3

Number of MP miles: 7

Number of Threshold miles: 14

Comments

• Hmm where to start. Its week three and my conclusion is Daniels is hard. There are a few things that stand out that are worth noting, not just for me but maybe for others considering his plans;
  • The two high volume sessions takes getting used to. I expect it suits people who are well conditioned for it but its a bit of a shock to the system for someone jumping in doing that for the first time, regardless of many years of training. Hopefully this is just an adjustment phase for me. I noticed similar when I started up with a new coach last year - different philosophy, different style - had me struggling for a few weeks before adapting.
  • The philosophy is to run lots of easy miles and then pick it up with speedier threshold/5k stuff. If you're not used to that approach it takes a bit of getting used to.
  • I dont really see any obvious down weeks in this plan. With that being said, I think I will be taking the offer from Daniels of changing up or skipping some of those "emboldened" sessions in his plan.
  • I can see how a plan like this would give the right person some big big strength gains. Time will tell if I'm one of those people.

Next weeks sessions;

Q1: 2E/8M/1E/2M/2E (TBD if I take an extra days easy and push this to Friday)

Q2: 40min Easy/3x2T off 2mins/2E (emboldened in the plan so optional to change or take a rest/easy day)

babacool

How long will you give the plan until you decide “this is defo for me” or “f that. It doesn’t suit me”?

Swashbuckler

The million dollar question @babacool .

Its not like I have a great alternative backup plan lying in wait so it would probably be a case of sticking with Daniels but scaling it back/messing up his philosophy and praying that gets me to the start and finish line in one piece.

babacool

😂😂😂😂 back up plan: 1 tempo run per week and 10 30k+ runs with 5 of those being Canova starting from 10*1-1k and finishing with 4*5-1k 😂 (I think luke is going to freak if he sees me suggesting that 😂😂😂😂).

AuldManKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118501997#Comment_118501997

Plans, you say - you want more plans??

Seriously though - don't let ego or fear of 'failure' on a JD plan be a factor here.

I think I tried JD Mara plans twice and changed after a few weeks - it wasn't until I gave the 10k plan a good rattle and had a few marathons under my belt that I felt strong enough to complete it - and I NEVER completed any plan as laid out on the page.

6E/4x1T is a super session that is also NUTS when you look at it - so don't consider it a downgrade.

You have to trust the plan though and if you are going to call it, then call it soon otherwise you'll be caught starting a newer plan in the middle.

Duanington

P - something that I think anyone who gets buried into a good marathon plan has to accept is that there are simply days when it isn't pretty, but its done....maybe the splits are off, maybe you felt way worse than expected but this is all part of it really.

I don't think you're stressed just yet but maybe think about just ticking off a few more of those sessions and if you have an off day, you have an off day - that's by design. You're going to have plenty of moments in the marathon where you feel like you could run forever and you'll most likely have some where you are petrified that you're done and out of gas.

Sometimes its as simple as done is better than perfect, that's life and it will 100% stand to you come your marathon debut

Swashbuckler

Thanks AMK and D.

I was about to respond the AMK's post but then saw D's post which basically captured what I was about to say.

I don't think its time to jump ship just yet! I just need to shut up complaining and get on with it 😂

There's probably an element of overthinking it a bit in the sense that I expected the first few weeks of marathon training usually has a feeling of "easing into it" whereas this has been anything but. That being said this is a brand new stimulus so the body will like need some adjustment period (spoke with E.coli about this too).

So in summary, i'm not getting too worked up yet. It was only a week ago I was saying I loved what I was doing so I cant let one week change all that. I'll keep truckin' anyway and we'll see how we go. All part of the learning experience.

And as you said AMK, which was something I probably didn't appreciate at the time, 6E + 4 x 1T is pretty decent and something i'd be delighted with if I was just "generally training".

E.coli

Marathon Mood swings

[mar-at-on moo-d s-wings] Noun

A feeling you get when cumulative fatigue sets in and plays tricks on the mind where you go from feeling invincible one day to a crocked failure the next and back again while re-considering every training run you do (even your easy runs) . A runners equivalent to hormonal fluctuation during pregnancy that normally occurs in the latter stages of 1st trimester in marathon running and continues till taper.

(If you are not getting this feeling you aren't training for a marathon :P)

MrMacPhisto

Hi Swashbuckler,

With interest, I have been reading yourself and AMKs log re JD plans and decided that since I am currently off piste re training plans and races that I would give some of the Q sessions a go.

My background training for the last 5 or 6 years has been he Hanson Method for marathon, and Hanson specific plans for 5-10k and half marathons. I have had consistent training in last 2 years with around 3000 miles per year and no injuries beyond a niggle which may have cost a few days here and there. As you probably know, Hanson has three Q sessions a week (speed/strength, marathon pace tempo, and a steady long run).

My thoughts on JD?

sessions done - 1. 2easy/6marathon/1easy/3marathon/2easy. 2. 10easy/3T/3min/2T/2min/1T/1min/1easy. 3. 8easy/6(1k@5k/3min)2easy.

The sessions are tough. There is no gentle breaking in. I wouldn't recommend these workouts somebody who hasn't a block of decent training and mileage in the bank. Even by reducing ones Vdot a level or two, the intensity is right up there straight away. With three sessions done and what I would consider adequate rest, I already feel the body creaking a bit and old niggles threatening to re-emerge. My early thoughts is that JD sessions are def a notch up on the Hanson sessions (intensity wise), and easy running/recovery running days require discipline. I would say that the JD plan squeezes the Hanson sessions into 2 workouts. Or Hanson drags the 2Q sessions into 3! I could see how someone new to this type of training would end up frustrated or, if underprepared, injured fairly quickly.

Event though it is tough, I do believe it is manageable. The sessions look daunting on paper. The long warm ups are new to me, and starting a 6x1k 5k pace session after 8 miles was very different, but I found it gave me time to relax and then time to focus on the job in hand in the last few kms of warm up. I was definitely physically and mentally drained by the 6th rep.

I would listen to AMK and DD. Marathon training is fatiguing and mentally tough. Some days are great and other days of training it is just about getting the effort right and ticking the day off on the calendar. It is a very good sign that you are considering switching out the EMBOLDENED days. It is a positive sign that you are definitely listening to the body. Some times less is more. I think if you persevere and take the time to adapt to this style of training you will have good success with it. Rome wasnt built in a day........

I am enjoying your analysis. Keep up the good work!

Swashbuckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504644#Comment_118504644

Great post - thanks.

I agree on pretty much all you've said. I thought that dropping a couple of Vdot would have me sailing through the sessions but not so. Another thing I'll be seriously reconsidering is upping my Vdot after 6 weeks (per Daniels advice). But we'll see how I adapt over the coming weeks. I might reconsider my reconsideration!

Hanson has always been a plan that interests me. The problem with the Hanson plan is that you need to rigidly be able to commit to the plan as it is on paper to get the planned cumulative fatigue effect. I couldn't really commit to that with a newborn in the house and two other smallies to take care of (+ working from home). JD gave me that flexibility.

Planned 2E/8M/1E/2M/2E today so we'll see how that goes!

Murph_D

Nothing to add to those superb responses, P, except to completely agree and underline the 'marathon mood swing' point. It really is part of the process to question the plan, your fitness, your choices, your sanity. And that is probably even more so the first time around (can't remember that far back).

Ever heard of The Rutles? Their manager's name was Leggy Mountbatten. 😀

MrMacPhisto

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504771#Comment_118504771

Best of luck with todays effort, it looks like the weather Gods are on your side, at least in the east of the country! I absolutely agree with your thoughts on Hanson. It is extremely rigid. And to get the most out of if, you need to stick with the rigidity. JD definitely offers good flexibility. I think I would try keep three days easy/recovery/rest between each Q session and only use a two day rest period sparingly.

Swashbuckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504800#Comment_118504800

See that's a great suggestion but hindered by another barrier i've created for myself. In as much as possible I want to keep weekends free or at the very least short runs. A three day gap between sessions would have me moving sessions in and our of weekends as the plan progresses.

All part of the work/life/family/running balancing act.

Swashbuckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504782#Comment_118504782

I'm still a relatively young man D so that's before my time 😂

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118504826#Comment_118504826

Knew you'd say that. 😉

shotgunmcos

Lots of great stuff as usual on this log from your self analysis/reflection and others with the relative experience.

To add

1. Honestly don't sweat it! I'm confident with your base that if you just did the plan mileage and 1MP focused session a week, you will finish, enjoy and likey execute a debut sub3.

2. A note on Hansons. I agree it's rigid 6 days on 1 off week after week. Its tough BUT its also simple. The sessions are pretty much the same, they just build the intensity minutes. It's very routine and rhythmic which actually gives you headspace and the 9-10 mile MP runs (with 2m either side = 13-14m) on fatigued legs are gold IMO. No intervals just a straight simple 10m MP that in hindsight felt like miles 12-22 on the day. It's a good back up BUT marathon training is relentless with 2 sessions weekly and some weeks will be meh. Trust the process. Risk of changing plan lower now but higher every week.

Swashbuckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118505636#Comment_118505636

Yeah I get you on Hanson. I guess my point was though, unless you can be absolutely sure you can manage those sessions on the same day every week then its not the kinda plan where you can get away with moving things around. Its simplicity was actually what looked attractive and I could definitely see myself going that route in the future, but only when I know for sure that the days in question will be consistent week on week for the entire block. Ironically i'm three weeks into Daniels and havent had to move anything yet but the day will come soon enough no doubt.

squinn2912

I’ve just scanned the last few comments but from what I see you made some minor adjustments and your speed and numbers are still seriously good in big long dogs of runs. Every now and again in any plan you get a kinda lull week and feel like you’re running in treacle. That passes too and you feel much more springy other times. I’d have no hesitation at all in pulling a session or adapting it mid session and I think that’s the right thing to do for you too. I’d nearly be more cautious of ‘beating’ a session as not the best sign.

I think you’re being far too hard on yourself and as an extension on the plan. That’s a tough, tough session and you cut the distance but also the recovery I think you’ve banked some real quality there. From the bit of Daniel’s book I’ve read his philosophy seems to be ‘if in doubt, pick the easier option.’ You did the smart thing. The sleep issue would further cement my thinking on your decision.

Another point I’m considering; if your aim is sub3 then running speeds like that on big sessions means you’re more than hitting that target. So I think you should be thinking to yourself am I hitting the plan - not quite (very nearly) am I hitting the target overall - yes. Take that and move on.

Swashbuckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118506101#Comment_118506101

That's some of the pro's and cons of my log. Great interest and inputs which I'm absolutely delighted with personally. The flipside is anyone playing catchup literally needs to read pages of content 😂

Great advice in that post. Thanks for taking the time.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118506187#Comment_118506187

Haha yea but it’s a great log and everyone is thankful to have it for ideas! I actually began replying about 12.30, a colleague came in with a question, a student came with a complaint (for a change!) and then I got back to my post nearly 2 hours later! When I posted it I had about 4 other responses to check. Most of us are saying similar things though - you’re flying, youre gonna smash sub 3 and a wee dip means nothing.