Swashbuckler's Marathon Debut?

healy1835 · 22-11-2021 10:33am

You've planned quite a long marathon block, 17 weeks?, so once you get going you'll still have plenty of time to get where you need to be. I'd say keep in touch with that threshold/60mins pace anyway, throw in a couple of longer efforts 5mile, 8mile etc at that pace. Maybe have a Parkrun blowout in there too.

Swashbuckler · 22-11-2021 10:58am

A few things I forgot to add to the update.

People who know me , know of my love for running shoes! Well the Fuelcell TC finally reached their end of days during the week. 750 miles I put on them and they're fairly in tatters. To be honest they probably shoulda been chucked out sooner but the cushioning is still in decent nick. If the upper wasn't falling apart I'd still be wearing them. Tried to attach a photo here.

The missus asked me what I wanted for xmas...Found it hard to justify runners til I looked at my collection with a marathon block in mind..There's a gap for a "do it all" sessions/long run/easy/recovery shoe (any excuse). So I have a replacement pair arrived already (took three days from Alltricks - super fast delivery). 160 euro which is an excellent price for a great shoe.

If I'm being completely honest I'm probably using some of my runners in a way I would never have expected. For example I have tended to try out the Endorphin Pro for some bigger sessions and will likely do so in the marathon block. Getting the Next% was a bit of a gamechanger to be honest. Its hard to ever see me picking the Endorphin Pro over the Next% for a race. I always expected the Endorphin Pro to be my go-to racer but it's not worked out that way. The TC and Speeds are 100% training shoes in my opinion and I love them both. The 4% at this stage are also becoming a bit of a session shoe. It's made really - won't be long before the vast majority of "serious" runners are training full time in carbon plated shoes.

In my last update the Tuesday and Friday sessions were in the Pro. The other four runs were in the withered TC. Then the Sunday run was in the Pegasus 36. Those are a pair I've had for quiet a while that I just need to bring to their own "end of days". Was only a matter of time before I started talking about shoes, right?

WhatsApp Image 2021-11-20 at 15.19.33.jpeg

Swashbuckler · 22-11-2021 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204646#Comment_118204646

Is posting the plan on here a no-no given its from the book? Might give some context to folks just how much planned MP and threshold work there is in this plan.

healy1835 · 22-11-2021 11:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204823#Comment_118204823

I don't think Jack or his copyright lawyers will lose too much sleep if you did 😉

Swashbuckler · 22-11-2021 11:50am

That's v0 of the plan basically. There's a few sessions I'm sceptical about and the taper is something I might look at closer to the time. Ignore the colour coding - I love my colours - it basically highlights to me where the easy runs are, the vanilla long, the MP sessions, interval sessions and the threshold sessions. I think this plan might evolve over time. Vdot of 56 for the first 6 weeks is on the conservative side. I have 58? as my vdot towards the end as its advised by Daniels to up the vdot twice in the cycle but i dont see myself doing the marathon at the corresponding pace to a 58 vdot.

Filler miles is the remaining miles in the week that need to be fit into the non-session days.

healy1835 · 22-11-2021 12:05pm

What are you basing your Vdot off of?

Swashbuckler · 22-11-2021 12:20pm

Recent race (August) in Banna 10k of 36.22 suggests a current vdot of 58. I'm in similar nick to when I ran that. When I look at all the paces for a vdot of 58 they all feel like where I'm at right now.

Daniels suggests going with a lower vdot for the first six weeks. I've actually gone with two vdots lower.

Murph_D · 22-11-2021 12:27pm

Good to see some running logged. 😉

You started with a yasso, I see. How did you find that? I assume they were not on a track, so the variation in pace is as likely to be gps related as anything else. I do think if you want to use it as any kind of even loose 'predictor' (and it's never worked for me!) a track is the only place to do it.

Have never done a Daniels marathon plan but I like the 2Q approach which I've used for 800 training. Also like the session variety and I see there is plenty of it here. Which ones are you sceptical about?

Love the graphics by the way, I'm a fan of colour coded spreadsheets myself.

ariana` · 22-11-2021 12:41pm

Love the variety and the flexibility around the filler/easy miles, I can see the appeal with your family circumstances. Interesting to see you have Saturday as a rest day. I know you are trying to work around a very busy family and the thinking is perhaps that Saturday will be an official "family day"? But surely 60-70 mins on a weekend day is less intrusive than 60-70 mins on a work day? I mention it because I've always had Sunday as a rest day and have lately been having this very argument with myself! It's a bit daft that I am running myself ragged on work days to fit in a run along with a billion after school activities and general school runs/homework/bedtime story reading duties and then on Sundays I have a full day off from all of that and running. It's nice to have the day to head off with the family but a lot of the time I could very easily get a run in as well whereas other days it an be a lot harder to fit it in.

MrMacPhisto · 22-11-2021 2:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118204740#Comment_118204740

I find myself constantly reaching for the Endorphin Speeds (1 & 2) for any day that there is work to be done. I have used them for 5k/10k speed, threshold, marathon pace tempo and long runs with faster bits. Extremely versatile for me. Im getting around 800kms out of them without much wear or loss of comfort. I suppose the only caveat with the speeds will be the time of year you are training. They are not great in wet or slippery conditions.

I have moved away from Pegasus since the 37 model. They had been my staple from the 32-36 models. My easy and recovery shoe is now Asics Novablasts 1's and 2's. Same caveat as above mind you, cold/frosty conditions are not their friend. They handle wet conditions well.

Race day will be the same as you, although I have only ever used the 4% version up to now ;)

Good luck with your training!!

Swashbuckler · 22-11-2021 5:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205227#Comment_118205227

To be honest it's only now you said it I realise how that might have appeared as a Yasso. Its purely co-incidental though. All of that reading over the past few years must be sinking in subconsciously. I went out with the mindset of running some pure threshold but not continuous. I just happened to choose 800m reps and happened to choose x10. Wanted roughly 30mins or 5 miles of threshold effort in the whole session.

So I wasnt using it as a gauge for a marathon time. It was a controlled threshold effort throughout and I certainly could have managed each rep faster (possibly 2.50-2.55 per rep if I wanted to push it). As for the gps , yeah thats the same route as I ran my suspect 17.02 5k TT. That being said there would be a natural variance in pace anyway. I wouldnt be hitting every 800m rep bang on the money even on a track.

As for my scepticism/worry;

1E/6M/1E/6M/2E: The first Q1 session on the plan has 12 miles of marathon pace................................
Some of the 1k reps at 5k effort after 8 miles easy seems a tad daunting.
40minE/4x2T off 2min/2x1T off 1min/1E: This just seems wrong to me. Thats 10 miles of threshold which seems to contradict Daniels guidance of no more than 10k of threshold a week. Thats in the same week as a 20 miler.

Those are the few that jump out. In general they are high volume sessions. Hopefully the body can hold up. Maybe i'm just being a little self depreciating but it seems like a little bit of a jump to go from 55 mile weeks/two ~10-12 mile sessions to 2 x 15/16 mile sessions.

Swashbuckler · 22-11-2021 5:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205304#Comment_118205304

You know I thought long and hard about that very question...To put it simply I have two big sessions per week. I dont want them to fall on a weekend (Im sure some might but i dont want to set up the plan for that to be a regular thing). I also want three days recovery after Q1 and two days recovery after Q2. Ideally I want one day off - if i feel great I may take it as a recovery day although I suspect i'll need it.

So that leaves a limited number of options for the session days. But your point was specifically related to a 1hr easy run at the weekend so.....

If you look at the filler miles columns, generally speaking thats not a lot of miles to make up in four days. The max is 29. Spread across four days thats roughly 7 miles per day. This should handily fall within my lunch break which I've historically been very good at keeping for runs.

Main thing for me is I really would like one day at the weekend where I get out of bed and spend the entire day with the family, kids and missus and running takes a complete back seat. There will almost definitely be some weekends where things need to shuffle though and I'm prepared for that. To be completely honest, its more of a pain for me having a run looming over me all day at the weekend than me getting it in at lunch at work.

Murph_D · 22-11-2021 9:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206827#Comment_118206827

You prompted me to have a look at the book again - a max of 10k for weekly T running seemed a bit low for a marathon plan, and what it actually says (p54, 3rd edition) is 10 percent. Not a huge difference, it has to be said, as this would be 7 miles in your 70 mile programme (as that session is scheduled for a peak week, i.e. 70 miles).

It does seem like a contradiction alright, but I suppose it's conditioned by his contention that a split tempo allows you to go longer. Still a monster alright, over an hour cumulatively at your VDOT 58 pace of 6:04/mile. But you have 9 mins of recovery in there too. 😉

I wonder though about your thinking in choosing this schedule (designed for a 70 mile peak) if your actual peak is going to be 60 miles. Maybe you'd consider using the 55 mile version and padding it out with some extra easy mileage. The corresponding T session in that plan has a more manageable 7 miles @ T pace (60E, 3x2T off 2 mins, 1T, 1E).

AuldManKing · 22-11-2021 11:26pm

Just a couple of comments on the sessions in question;

40minE/4x2T off 2min/2x1T off 1min/1E: I've read elsewhere that this is a typo from a longer mileage session - Look up Reddit logs on Daniels - people seem to just leave the 2x1T (or run them at MP)

1E/6M/1E/6M/2E: The first Q1 session on the plan has 12 miles of marathon pace: Remember that you'll be doing this at 2 VDOT's under your target - so its not really PMP.

Some of the 1k reps at 5k effort after 8 miles easy seems a tad daunting: I thought the same and Actually - this went well for me - you will surprise yourself. I do recall the 1st time I done the 2Q plan - I shortened the warm up to 5-6 miles.

The CRU version of this plan that I sent you may be an easier initial few weeks if you need to 'work into it'.

Note: I've never actually followed this to the letter - always some changes - I've ran some of the tempos at MP - I've inserted some of the Steve Way sessions - and I think JD himself never intended for these to be used as a firm plan - rather as a guide.

Swashbuckler · 23-11-2021 10:34am

Cheers guys.

Murph that was actually a really useful input. I took a look at the 55 mile plan again and I think it probably makes more sense to use those sessions and fill up the easy days to make 60 miles (if im up to it) rather than adjusting down the 70 mile plan. There isn't a huge difference in the sessions in each plan but there are some subtle differences for example the opening session on the plan is 8MP with 1T rather than 2 x 6MP. The interval sessions at R pace seem a little more manageable too.

AMK - spot on I actually hadnt considered a couple of those points - the MP not really being MP at the start of the plan.

This plan will definitely adjust as time goes on no doubt - happy to iron on some of the more major things now though.

Swashbuckler · 23-11-2021 11:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205733#Comment_118205733

Thank you!

Agree on the Speeds. I haven't worn them for anything more than 12 miles. I think for a lot of the Daniels sessions I may lean towards the Pro or the TC if the conditions are wet. It's amazing really the way things have gone. These shoes would have been top of the range racers a few years ago. Feels like an age ago that I was wearing adizero adios 3 for all my sessions and races.

SuspectZero · 24-11-2021 2:02am

That 4x2+2x1 @ T session cant be right, in his 71-85 plan, its just 4x2m so must be a typo as AMK said. I also think 4x2m @ T is pushing it, as its 48:32 of running at 60 minute pace

As Murph mentioned, JD talks about doing no more than 10% of weekly mileage at T pace and I've also read of him talking about maxing out at 40 mins of threshold work in one session so I would take those points as more important than whats wrote in the plan as mileage is a very generic measurement of a workout, it wont fit everyone!

A way you could work around this is if you applied every plan mile at threshold as 5 minutes. So 3m at T would be 15 mins, 4x2m would be 4x10 minutes instead etc. There is also a big ol session week 16 with 8m at T so that would catch my attention as well. The weeks those sessions happen on have 60 miles so that would be 6 miles of T max by JD's writing.

If you go:

4x2m @T= 4x10min @ T, that would mean just shy of 6.5m of T

The same goes for the Week 16 workout which is on a 60 mile week

So if you used the 5 min instead of one mile across all the tempo sessions in the plan, you would still have a fluid progression of stimulus but wouldn't have the kind of overkill monster sessions. Just an idea and my .02c

Swashbuckler · 24-11-2021 10:42am

Some great inputs folks...And I do like the idea of adjusting to time based threshold if necessary too. Thanks guys. I took a look at Murphs suggestion and the 55 mile plan does look a little more manageable. I have the flexibility of sticking to the peak of 55M or adjusting up the easy miles (if I feel up to it) to make it a 60M peak. The Excel file just got a lot more complicated. 😂.

I'm leaving the vanilla long runs open - I may go off the suggested time or may try to hit the miles noted in the cell i.e. 120mins is likely 15 miles for me but I would like to be hitting 16, 17, 18 milers. Time will tell but experience tells me my long runs wont be quicker than 8min/mile.

Laineyfrecks · 24-11-2021 3:32pm

Great to see you logging again. Very best of luck with with your debut marathon, it's always good to have something new to aim towards for motivational reasons. I think you will enjoy the process, it's not easy but very rewarding when it goes to plan (whether it be plan A, B or C) Will follow with great interest.

AuldManKing · 25-11-2021 3:50pm

By the time 30th Dec comes around - you'll have log fatigue and your plan will have changed 30+ more times!!

Swashbuckler · 25-11-2021 4:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118221488#Comment_118221488

Haha I did think the same but you know what, its a novelty again at least...Last log update was mid 2020? I cant even remember...

And true on the plan - part of the fun 😂

scotindublin · 27-11-2021 9:31am

Who can resist a colorful training spreadsheet. Best of luck with the plan.

Definitely one I will be following with interest.

Swashbuckler · 29-11-2021 11:27am

Thanks again everyone for the interest and inputs..Things have settled a bit in terms of the plan and its actually been four days since I looked at it! I'm not getting a sense of high optimism from people down these parts about it going ahead (not from any official sources I should add - just opinions of some running folks). Please God it will. I've no intention of a virtual attempt.

This weeks training I wanted to change it up slightly. Been a while since I did any raw speedwork and a vanilla long run so thats the route I went. I have a lot of strength based sessions done lately at HMP, MP , Threshold and CV so I wanted some pure turnover stuff added in this week.

This week featured me sampling the many playlists from the Boards playlist thread....More on that later.......

Monday - Easy with strides. (7.1M, 59mins. Avg 8.19min/mile)

This run featured the Donadea 50k playlist. Very eclectic and I must say I really enjoyed the bits I did hear. Will be putting that on shuffle again.

Tuesday - 16 x 1min on/1min off - Hard (8.25M, 65mins)

This used to be a regular one Luke used to throw at me when I was either in a 5k block or if he wanted me to get some fast, pure speed stuff in the middle of a stretch of strength training to help me keep in touch with the faster stuff (basically 16x300m off 60s).

It had been a while since I had done anything like this - infact I pretty much parked up the raw speed sessions when our third arrived. Felt like a good time to throw this in just to make sure the legs and lungs didnt forget what it was like to run "fast fast". Threw on the Endorphin Speeds for these. Did I ever say how much i love them???

Not much to tell about this session apart from it was great to get the lungs going again. The legs certainly felt it the day after. This is normal for me. The main thing for me is to be cautious as they can often trigger the hip issues again.

Paces for the splits were 5.06-5.18 although the 5.18 was an outlier and I was pleasantly surprised at the consistency. Form was good. Happy with this . 2M warmup and cooldown. I really should be addeing some strides and drills when I do these. Lazy.

Wednesday - Easy (55mins, 6.5M - Avg 8.25min/mile)

This one was sponsored by shotguns 90's hits...............................im not gonna speak ill of the man while he's not here so anything I have to say I will say to his face.............................................................................

Thursday - Easy (57mins, 7M - Avg 8.09min/mile)

Took a break from the playlist after the horror show from the day before. The legs were still a bit meh from the session. This is exactly why I shouldnt neglect the speed stuff. Once every two months isnt really enough. I also noted that because the Fuelcell TC are now retired I'm taking some other shoes I have towards retirement. The Pegasus 36 were brought to retirement this week. I have to say, i'm noticing the difference doing my easy/recovery runs on the non fancy shoes...............God forbid the Fuelcell TC would become my recovery shoe 😮

Friday - 14 miles easy, 1hr51mins - Avg 7:57

Firstly I had set out with the option of running a high volume session but with the fallback of a vanilla run. Mentally I was leaning towards the vanilla as I really have neglected easy miles/time on feet since our little girl was born. Also, crapppppppp night sleep so the decision was really made for me. The legs werent able for a session.

Secondly, this run was sponsored by Laineyfrecks Kickass Tunes playlist..........I can confirm that it is indeed a kickass playlist. The miles flew by with almost every song having me reminiscing or putting a smile to my face. Loads of tunes that I havent heard in years. Class stuff. I say "almost every song". I only picked out two duds in the 2hrs running but more to do with my taste than them being awful songs.....Great stuff E. I'll be using that playlist again.

I felt tired on this run. I definitely need to get a few more 14M/15M vanilla runs in before starting the marathon block. Received some sound advice from healy which confirmed the same.

Saturday - Rest day

This was kinda planned/kinda unplanned. I knew in advance it would be a busy day with Santa visit, gingerbread house decorating, watching the toy show with the eldest and basically spoiling her. I figured this would take up most of the day and evening. It worked out that she had zero interest in the toy show beyond the opening number so I did have an opportunity to head out in the evening if I wanted. I just decided not to and spend time chilling with the missus and having a few glasses of wine.

Sunday - Easy (9M, 73mins - Avg 8.03min/mile)

This run was sponsored by healys Lilywhites BBQ playlist. Another cracker. I had visions of relaxing in the sunshine with a beer in my hand and the choons playing away in the background...Magic. The run itself was good. I really needed the mental reset after no run on Saturday. Wore the Pegasus Turbo 2 for this. I just cant warm to them. I cant think of any run I would want to wear these for.

Total for the week: 52 miles

Total time on feet: 7hrs

Total miles year to date: 2593 miles

Decent week albeit a little on the tired and leggy side. Will play it by ear this week and see how the body is. Bad sleep again last night.

I'd like to get another vanilla long run in - maybe 15M if the legs are up to it. Will likely try for a threshold session on Tuesday.

In other news:

Was a great week for shopping wasnt it!? I think at this stage I've built up a reputation on here. I just love a good deal and even if I'm not buying I love sharing a good deal. Was texting Boardsies all weekend.

As for myself, I spent Thursday debating back and forth with myself on three deals and which one to go with: Endorphin Pro for 132, Fuelcell TC for 120, Alphafly for 180. I was this close to going with the Pro. A shoe I really like . I had always planned it as my marathon shoe until I bought the Next% last year. I cant honestly see myself picking the Pro over the Next% for a marathon. However 132 quid for a shoe that good , that can be used for big sessions in training was a super deal. Then the Alphafly with 120 quid off...............Hard to see that happening again any time soon. In the end I went with the Alphafly. Worst case I dont like them (or that awful clomping sound drives me nuts) and i'll pass them on to someone else.

Then AMK texts me Friday to point out the TC have further reduced to 100......Sigh...............

I also invested in a box of SIS gels to try them out. Thanks healy for the heads up (50% off on SIS website). Will try them out and see if they are agreeable. It's probably one of the things i'm most worried about with the marathon. I've a desperately sensitive digestive system when it comes to running. Anything eaten within an hour or two of running usually means acid burps. Hopefully the SIS work out.

Finally, anyone who would like to give a pair of Pegasus Turbo 2 a good home just let me know. Size 44.5 (UK 9.5).

MY BAD · 29-11-2021 7:41pm

I'm enjoying this log! Very interesting, keep it up. I haven't had much time to have any substantial input. I hope to follow your footsteps soon. I'm not sure how you guys manage it all family, running, everything else, work... I think Limerick half should be a good target for me then a late Autumn marathon

Swashbuckler · 29-11-2021 9:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118241440#Comment_118241440

Cheers S. Not sure how well I'm managing it to be honest! Probably non optimal training and the willingness to drop it if necessary....

Also, you're somewhat new to it...it gets easier....and it gets more manageable the more experience you and your missus get....I was in a heap with my first.

AuldManKing · 30-11-2021 10:26am

You soft lads.

I trained for my 1st Marathon with 2 young kids and doing a Masters part time.

While walking to the shops barefoot.

Swashbuckler · 30-11-2021 11:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243542#Comment_118243542

You had two young kids so that was probably 25 years ago? Different times. Back then kids were easily entertained by tipping a tyre along the road with a stick.😂 Shur colic didnt even exist back then. Neither did teething coz ye just rubbed whiskey on their gums......Handy work back then.

MY BAD · 30-11-2021 1:45pm

Normally it's country bumkins in the sticks calling city slickers soft. Times have changed 😆

Laineyfrecks · 30-11-2021 3:57pm

Glad to hear my playlist mostly got your seal of approval... what were the 2 duds🤔

As Meatloaf kinda sang 2 out of 85 ain't bad 😉

Swashbuckler · 30-11-2021 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245737#Comment_118245737

Haha I didn't quite make it through 85 songs but of the 2hrs I did listen to I was loving it. And I'll be revisiting again for my next long run. The two were sweet like chocolate and Ann Le - two times. Two songs that have always grated on me.

Swashbuckler's Marathon Debut?

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