Remote working - the future?

givyjoe · 14-09-2021 2:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117885582#Comment_117885582

This, exactly this. In the one week we were dragged back in last summer, this is essentially what happened. Calls were still taking place over teams as the most of the folks were not in the office due to department being split into WFH/office at any given time. Nonsensical. We were told today that 'everyone' is going back next week, albeit for 2/5 days. For my particular job this makes absolutely no sense as I'll be scrambling to try find a quiet space (instead of an open plan floor) to deliver online training.

14-09-2021 2:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117889956#Comment_117889956

I was struggling with stuff like that long before the pandemic. The open plan office was the worst idea in the history of bad ideas, and anytime I hear the various arguments against fulltime WFH, whereby many homes are not suitable, I think of the various open plan offices I've worked in and think "And that was a suitable working environment?". Noisy, hard to focus, soulless environments.

givyjoe · 14-09-2021 4:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117890055#Comment_117890055

I would even settle for the hellscape that is portrayed in the movie office space (cubicles), over our over open plan lay out. It is impossible to concentrate with the commotion going on at the best of times.

14-09-2021 4:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117890774#Comment_117890774

The Matrix trailer came out last week, which prompted me to watch the original. Neo was in a nice, chest high cubicle, as were all his colleagues. Open plan office but with cubicles. I've worked in one like that. The cubicle partitions were covered in felt which absorbed sound. Meaning the office was quieter.

Someone, somewhere decided to get rid of them, and it became a fashion. Easy knowing the people who make such decisions, don't have to work in that environment.

14-09-2021 6:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117890810#Comment_117890810

The reason behind why they were removed was largely driven by tech startup. Its was far, far cheaper to buy a big table and a load of chairs to sit 10-16 people around it, than to provide cubicles for each person.

It became "cool" to not have cubicles until people started to realize how much distraction there is without them.

My own place is moving towards removing them too, but is laying out a new style of desk all higildy-pigildy with tall plants, artwork etc dotted around the place as a way to absorb voices, noise, visual distractions etc

Theres a good video about this

https://youtu.be/7Tt4n8SaxEY

14-09-2021 6:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117891144#Comment_117891144

As you say, thats fine between 10-12 techs in a startup. I was in Vodafone on a consulting gig a while back. The entire floor I was on was one big office space. The floor was nearly the size of a football field. Just flat desks as far as the eye could see. A horrible, soulless place. I also hate working beside people I don't know or work with. You're sat there in a sea of strangers.

CalisGirl · 14-09-2021 7:10pm

Tech and Accounting firms seem onboard with the hybrid working. But I've heard from friends/family that the Public service and lots of smaller firms are determined to get their employees back to the office 5 days a week. It'll be interesting to see what way the country goes.

MrMusician18 · 14-09-2021 7:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117838949#Comment_117838949

On the one hand you say people should live closer to work, yet also say permanent jobs are hard to get.

14-09-2021 9:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117891470#Comment_117891470

The jobs market for anyone in Tech is booming at the moment. Any senior manager forcing their tech staff back into the office will quickly find themselves without any tech staff.

14-09-2021 9:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117892171#Comment_117892171

In the short term, when an equilibrium is reached and the wfh jobs are filled, what then?

I asked this earlier, will those who attend offices be more likely to be promoted because they are seen?

Turkish1 · 14-09-2021 9:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117831648#Comment_117831648

Given your strongly held opinion on the WFH topic, I would assume that you know that you can reduce your income tax liability based on the number of days worked from home in the year and this includes costs related to light, heat & broadband (which for most there is no incremental cost). So all those incremental costs you referring to are either reduced or eliminated totally.

What would be your estimate of incremental costs incurred due to working from home for someone working full time from home. I would expect them to be so small as to be completely immaterial.

gmisk · 14-09-2021 9:49pm

Found out today, we won't be going back in my place til jan-march and then it will likely be 2 or 3 days a week.

There are some people going in on a trial basis Oct to Dec (they volunteered).

Happy with that tbh.

I have heard other departments are going back 4 days a week for all staff (including my old one where I know lots of people)...seemingly lots of staff requesting transfers/mobility already!

Strumms · 14-09-2021 9:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117847994#Comment_117847994

I’m on the planet where I’ve worked for excellent employers, and one average to poor one and one terrible one...

Of the first 10 people off the top of my head now, friends and family....9 have home phones... one I’m not sure about...

if you check the Dublin phone directory you will find tens of thousands of residences still have landlines, that’s just Dublin..

14-09-2021 10:07pm

In the short term, when an equilibrium is reached and the wfh jobs are filled, what then?

Bit of a bizarre question. It's not like there's a limit of how many people in the country can work from home.

I asked this earlier, will those who attend offices be more likely to be promoted because they are seen?

The people who contribute the most, who do the best work, are generally the ones who get promoted. Thats how it works in most places.

14-09-2021 10:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117892416#Comment_117892416

Why is it bizarre? Surely there will be a limited number of wfh jobs rather than a limit on the numbers who want to wfh.

The second sentence is naive. I have heard a few employer/employee representative contributors being interviewed in Newstalk/The Last Word about hybrid working arrangements, one of the more obvious, and indeed repeated viewpoints was that managers will be tempted to rely more on those that are present in the office, these people also have more opportunity to form relationships with managers/owners.

Flinty997 · 14-09-2021 10:54pm

They'll use Nepotism so it won't matter if the person is working remotely or not.

14-09-2021 10:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117892487#Comment_117892487

Ah yes newstalk

That most unbiased of platforms

Mrs OBumble · 14-09-2021 11:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117892416#Comment_117892416

There's certainly a limit to the number of employers who will offer or require WFH.

And if you think that the best people get promoted... haaaa! I've got a bridge for sale.

AndrewJRenko · 14-09-2021 11:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117892296#Comment_117892296

How can you have no incremental costs for light and heat? Does your laptop run off solar power? How you heat your house for the extra eight hours a day? I've no option but to stick with Virgin Broadband now, as the only decent quality supplier in my area. The other cheaper suppliers, that would meet my home requirements but not my work requirements are not an option for me.

I claimed all available costs for 2020. From memory, I got a tax credit of around €140, so I'll save tax of about €50. I spent €400 on furniture, and about €250 more on gas and electricity than 2019.

ghoulfinger · 14-09-2021 11:20pm

Doesn’t some of the factor of WFH depend on whether the employee has access to transport/able to drive? Im big on downsizing emissions, deliberately own a particularly frugal hybrid myself. Now are the WFH folk genuinely able to commute to their employer whatever, once a week or fortnightly or monthly, whatever, or have they resolutely stuck themselves up some beautiful mountain because the scenery is agreeable. I know there’s no ideal solution to this, and once folk have been afforded the easy solution it’s extremely hard to row back

ghoulfinger · 14-09-2021 11:30pm

Regretted post unable to delete

ghoulfinger · 14-09-2021 11:44pm

Regretted post unable to delete

CalisGirl · 15-09-2021 12:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117892733#Comment_117892733

Not sure your point is clear. I'm sure if people were able to commute to a role pre-pandemic, they can physically commute to the role post-pandemic. The issue is should they commute at all and if so, how much.

Also, a bank won't give you a mortgage for a property that's not within commutting distance of your job unless you have a letter from the employer explicitly giving permission to WFH long-term so it's unlikely anyone has stuck themselves up a mountain.

As to hybrid working being an easy solution, I'd say it's more a pragmatic solution for a lot of people. Most office jobs only need face to face contact at most 3 days/week, so why not cut down on commuting, office space and emissions while allowing employees the flexibility desired.

ghoulfinger · 15-09-2021 11:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117892910#Comment_117892910

The other day I heard somebody on the radio speak of how they had relocated to a remote area of Donegal, because of lifestyle, the children, “scenery” etc. Working remotely, and it was mentioned that he wouldn’t be in a position to do hybrid working if asked, eg one day a week in the capital. The discussion referred to people’s availability to work in the hybrid model, and how workable or not it is becoming. There was no mention of mortgage or anything, maybe he’s continuing to rent or maybe he’s living in a family home that maybe had been the summer home, who knows.

It will be interesting to see how it all pans out in a broader sense. Employers’ buildings and infrastructure will be under-utilised and there could be a lot of degenerating empty buildings in the cities. There’s broader implications re strategic planning, insurance, and awful lot for companies to consider for the future. Their decision making re facilitating WFH may be informed by such implications.

15-09-2021 12:10pm

It will be interesting to see how it all pans out in a broader sense. Employers’ buildings and infrastructure will be under-utilised and there could be a lot of degenerating empty buildings in the cities. There’s broader implications re strategic planning, insurance, and awful lot for companies to consider for the future. Their decision making re facilitating WFH may be informed by such implications.

"Infrastructure will be under-utilsed". Last time I was on Public Transport in Dublin was in March 2020, and it was bursting at the seams. A few less people in the capital would do it some good while the capacity issues get improved. Looking at daft.ie this morning, in all of Dublin there are currently 635 properties for rent with a rent of 2000 or less. Thats ridiculous.

ghoulfinger · 15-09-2021 12:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117894164#Comment_117894164

Transport in the capital has always been grossly under-resourced. There ought to have been an underground metro in place in the capital at least by the time I started working. It’s more about the buildings where companies have located themselves and the money invested in them. Maybe some of that could be converted into housing, but I think an architect might have nightmares at this suggestion. The housing situation is farcical and tenants are being exploited.

Patsy167 · 16-09-2021 9:13am

Some interesting reading in today's BBC article - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58574621

irelandrover · 16-09-2021 9:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839757#Comment_117839757

You have 2 scenarios:

WFO:

at 6pm you turn off your phone

when boss calls your home phone you tell him not to

you go meet your friends at 7

Wfh:

at 6pm you turn off your phone

when boss calls your home phone you tell him not to

you go meet your friends at 7

the only difference is that in WFH there is no chance your boss calls by your desk to ask you to do something.

I really don't see the difficulty here.

oceanman · 16-09-2021 11:41am

judging by the amount of rush hour traffic on the roads now i would say few enough are still working from home..

16-09-2021 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117898792#Comment_117898792

Yes, I don’t understand the traffic situation. My office and most of the MNCs that I know are not in yet. Still a lot of people WFH. When they all go back the roads will be nightmarish

Mrs OBumble · 16-09-2021 12:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117898903#Comment_117898903

Lots are now using private vehicles instead of public transport, due to disease fears.

I know if one company that still has the "no shared transport outside of your household " policy that they introduced last year.

Flinty997 · 16-09-2021 12:18pm

Even before the pandemic I was all for hybrid working. It just suits me.

Makes no difference to the company. They aren't doing anything different, in terms, of communication, meetings, planning, project management. We are literally doing the exact same work, we always did just in a different location.

16-09-2021 12:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117898961#Comment_117898961

Yep, as I said before, when I was in the office I'd message a colleague on MS Teams or Slack or whatever even if they were 6 feet away. It's common courtesy. As you say, we're not doing anything differently.

Strumms · 16-09-2021 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117898212#Comment_117898212

The difference is when your home is your office your employer has the mindset as a lot will that if a tricky problem or question is requiring your assistance they already as part of their mindset... of your home = your workplace that they can attempt to contact you..getting the kids ready for bed, taxi just pulled up to take you to a gig say or other social event ..

when home is work it’s different, the lines have been blurred, you don’t get that with office work.

my personal phone I don’t want to have to turn off, mobile or house phone.

irelandrover · 16-09-2021 2:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117899364#Comment_117899364

Why would you answer the phone to your boss as you are putting your kids to bed? Maybe for you it blurs the lines, for most people if they turned off the phone leaving the office, then they turn off their phone when they shut off their laptop and leave their home office.

If your boss now thinks your available 24 hours because you work from home, and you don't tell them that isn't true, then that's completely on you. My boss has my work number and no other way to contact me.

16-09-2021 2:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117899406#Comment_117899406

This is not an actual problem for @Strumms , its just something he made up to stir controversy, see here

Flinty997 · 16-09-2021 3:50pm

Well its a forum. Its reason to exist is for discussion. It doesn't have to be from personal experience.

But if its complete nonsense, expect to be called out on it.

16-09-2021 3:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117899364#Comment_117899364

We've all been working from home for the past 18 months. Has this theoretical situation actually arisen for anyone?

It hasn't for me. If anything, the two bosses I've had while working from home, have been more flexible, not more rigid.

16-09-2021 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117899364#Comment_117899364

I'm trying to wrap my head around this to make sense of it but I can't.

If your boss tried to ring you at 9PM or 2AM why would it matter if you were working from home or in the office?

Why would you also give the company your working for your house phone number or your personal mobile phone number?

That is none of their business.

I don't have a house phone but if I did and if anyone got hold of my personal mobile number they would instantly be blocked.

I I'm on a on call rota where I get paid an extra 25% for the week and only have to do it one week every two months.

If the week doesn't suit I just swap with someone else .

Its just a job folks, stop taking it so seriously.

16-09-2021 4:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117900182#Comment_117900182

Not everyone is afforded a separate mobile phone for their work, even in the private sector. I can tell you as a public servant your private phone is the phone you are contacted by for your work but during agreed times and on agreed terms which the unions duly keep an eye on. Yes I have known it to happen for individual bosses to inappropriately intrude immensely into private lives, up to and including one manager turning up to spy on someone who was on certified sick leave and whose husband had to show the door.

20-09-2021 8:02pm

How many chats like this are happening across Ireland these days. Quite a few I'd imagine, with a lot more to come

22-09-2021 12:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117899364#Comment_117899364

The more I see you post, the more it becomes clear to me you've 0 control over your work/life situation. I don't know if you've a fear of losing your job or what but you need to nip this way of thinking in the bud. Who the **** has a house phone? And what sort of company do you work for where your boss rings your personal phone?

Mrs OBumble · 22-09-2021 12:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117917017#Comment_117917017

Great cartoon and all.

In real life, how many people do you know who have been offered a new job in the last three months which has 100% work from home as the plan going forward?

Flinty997 · 22-09-2021 12:14am

I know a few actually.

22-09-2021 12:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922107#Comment_117922107

Me and my wife for a start, 2 different companies.

As for everyone else, its none of my business.

I will say though, that there are a boatload of WFH roles out there

Granted there's likely to be some overlap between those sites, but the roles are there for anyone interested in WFH and there is a lot of variety in the levels and sectors too

22-09-2021 7:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922173#Comment_117922173

Out of interest, how does that compare to the total number of office jobs that could be done wfh? It seems a minute number.

Mrs OBumble · 22-09-2021 11:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922173#Comment_117922173

The boat has holes in it.

It took me 5 mins eyeballing the Jobs.ie list to see that a number which are flagged WFH also have "Work from home until current restrictions are lifted" in the comments. One is even a field service engineer which says that 60% of the time will be traveling or on site at clients premises.