Your New WHS Index

I think its more the case that CSS were more likely to kick in as handicaps were lower and people couldnt have that 3-5 strokes swing upwards in a year.

Given its basically a calculation based on scoring on a specific day, if people have higher handicaps, average scores likely shift higher and essentially aren't reflective of conditions on the day.

In my place, on medals and in majors there was almost always a CSS of at least 1 under the old system. I don't think there has been a single PCC under the new system in my place this year.

The course hasn't changed significantly in the last year, so only reasonable explanation to my mind would be that average scoring is higher, which is likely linked to the essier swing upwards in handicaps

cant wait to see the scores for this!

https://eventmaster.ie/event/Dp1zsmAcJr?utm_source=Castleknock+Members+2020&utm_campaign=778857b68f-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_01_04_02_02_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_84d69be0c7-778857b68f-124170265

jaysus now thats some **** joke

That's exactly the type of thing I was expecting when I read about the new system. You've fellas shooting +18 on two courses that they find equally difficult. But the score differential on one of them is +19 and on the other is +14. So from that players point of view, if they're playing on the "easy" course, if they're averaging 18 over they'll have a handicap of 19 and on the "hard" course a handicap of 14.

I'd say there are only a handful of clubs with differences like that, but they are out there. I was just talking to my playing partners yesterday about it and in all 4 of our cases, pretty much all of our away rounds are counting towards our handicap. You'd expect just under half of them to.

Team of 4, stableford, 2 scores to count. You'll be looking at 110+ being returned

But if the rating isn't accurate it doesn't make sense. If shooting +5 is the equivalent of shooting +9 elsewhere then it's fine. But this is where people are concerned.

Under this system you should probably be slightly more likely to have your rounds in your home club as your counting ones, because you will have the local knowledge there. But other than that your average score differential should be consistent whatever course you play.

But that's not the case for everyone. As I say, in my fourball yesterday we discussed it. And all of our experience was that we're far more likely to count rounds on away courses. If I was to include the casual rounds I've recorded on my watch for my handicap (before the new system came in), I'd be counting 5 out of 6 away rounds and 3 out of 14 home. That's not right.

It's a mix of comp and casual both home and away. But remember the new system takes account of the tees you play off when giving you your course handicap. I was looking at it in advance of playing tramore next week. If I play off the blues instead of the greens I get an extra 0 shots for playing the extra 600m.

The actual qualifying factors are that I started playing really badly and I'm particularly bad at my home course. But that said, before I started playing badly my scores were still worse than on away courses (compared to par, never mind adjusted for ratings. But the other three guys I was with had the same experience.

I think anyone who believed that there was any set of criteria that could be applied to all courses that would rate them all appropriately was delusional. For me the only way to fix it is to look at the scores on courses of home and away players and to look at the away scores of players. If the members at a course are consistently scoring better on away courses, then maybe you're rating is wrong. Similarly, if away players are consistently scoring better on your course than home players then maybe your rating is wrong. And you could look at it by handicap grouping too. It might just be higher or lower handicap players that are out of kilter.

I agree with you about anecdotes. I see lots of people talking about a competition in Galway and one in the midlands a few weeks later and putting them forward as evidence that the system isn't working. And I completely dismiss the comments to be honest. The only thing that would convince me is a lot of data - probably a couple of years of comps across the country.

But I just have had serious doubts since I heard that they're applying a universal set of criteria to rank courses that it will work all of the time. I don't believe it's possible to have a suitable template for the 400 or so courses in Ireland let alone the tens of thousands across the world. It will throw up anomalies and I expected my home course to be one. And I 100% believe that has turned out to be the case. From the group of 8 lads who I'd generally play with we're all finding that when we play away we score much better and our away rounds are almost always counting ones for our scores. And to be convinced otherwise, I'd want to see that the members at my club are no more or less likely to have their scores at away clubs count towards their handicaps.

I also think with our handicaps going out and visitors losing shots when they come to play that it must have changed the comp leaderboards fairly dramatically.

As always there are cavaets. I've gained shots and I don't like it. I might think I'm looking at everything objectively, but of course I'm biased. Also, I'm looking at my course and away courses based on how I play them. My course demands that I play my least favourite shots all the time. And what makes my course easy is the length. For the average golfer (who's 30 years older than me) this is a huge factor in how easy they find the course. Whereas the length of a normal course wouldn't bother me in the least.

I would think so too. But even trying to come up with a suitable method of using that data accurately is giving me a headache. 😁

Yea i get what you are saying. I think they should be using the course rating in the calculation of playing handicaps, cause as you say the slope is cancelled out in the Score differential calculation and its the course rating that has the biggest impact on it.

But just because a course has a course rating of 67(par 70) and another has a CR of 70(par 71) doesn't mean it plays 3 shots easier to the normal golfer. Thats for a scrathc golfer i think?

For the low single figure guys it probably does, the mid handicapper maybe a little bit, but for the high handicapper i dont think it will. And it will lead to the high guys getting higher which come interclub time is a massive advantage considering we will probably be going off Januarys HI next year.

And they play to that handicap on this course, so 36pts or 86, and that's a score differential of 22.4. Which means by just playing this course and playing to their PH all the time they will go up in handicap. Maybe i need to look at it more that they need to shoot 39pts or 83 to play to their handicap.

On the handicap rules, it says counting rounds for handicap can only happen during a clubs normal active season. But with whs, are we not supposed to have the option to play a casual round all year round. I know for myself, I'd love to be able to play for my handicap all year round even if I had to play summer rules in the winter time to do it. 9 or 18 holes

Another reason I'm thinking though is we are trying to run a winter series for our own junior/juvenile golfers. It would be great if they could submit cards for their handicap year round at the weekends instead of just during the summer when they are off school. 9 hole casuals, that is.

Is there anything stopping us doing this ?

Nothing really. Unless you have conditions that mean that some of the rules of golf are suspended. Like temp greens and mats as outlined above or preferred lies in the rough or bunkers being out of play etc.

But All Newbies Do Intermittently Transition Superbly

In fairness my most recent round would look similar to that guys in that it was 5 below my handicap and my lowest counting score since I joined the club and I do not mind my handicap in any way as I submit almost every round I play and am always trying to lower my h'cap. I've got a lot of 9 hole scores which are counting that if combined would be close to the round I shot at the weekend but hadn't been able to string a full 18 hole round together as low as that before. Still only enough to get me 2nd in the competition, the entire top ten were handicaps under 15 with only one exception so does go against some of the thinking that only high handicappers can win.