Your New WHS Index

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117764221#Comment_117764221

it's because 9 hole scores are scaled up to 18 holes using the same 9 holes that were played. The second nine is assessed at net pars for each hole plus one stroke. So this calculates as 113/126 * ((37 + 37 + 5) - (36.5 * 2)) = 5.38 which rounds to 5.4.

Rule 5.1b of the WHS rules of handicapping.

Rikand

Thank you very much prawn. You're better than the GUI 😍

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117764480#Comment_117764480

You're welcome. 😊

It's an odd one at first look, but then when you get into it, it makes sense. Nine hole scores are generally better than 18 hole scores and this method tries to even it out.

PARlance

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117763255#Comment_117763255

And if a guy says he was on holiday for the week and just wanted to play golf... It's a risky move to be so ballsy.

Anyway, I'm being very negative about this new system as I think it's only going to get worse and worse...so I'll give it a rest for now.

ger664

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117764221#Comment_117764221

The adjusted gross is scaled up to 18 holes. 9 holes nett par plus one additional shot added to the actual gross. This is done for the 9 holes that where played. It is calculated using 18 Hole Handicap for the 9 that where played. If your playing hc is 11 but 5 for the front 9 you would use a PH of 10 to calculate the second 9 gross score.

9 hole score differential = (113 / 9 hole slope rating) * ( 18 hole adjusted gross - (9 hole course rating)*2 - (0.5 * PCC))

Might explain it better Page 47

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/WHS-Rules-of-Handicapping.pdf

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117764564#Comment_117764564

If he says he was on holiday for the week and he actually was, then that's a valid reason. It would still leave the consistently crap scoring he had for the week up for question. And of course his marker would be asked some searching questions too. Even if nothing came of it, there would be the effect that turning the spotlight on him and his marker would have. The worst thing that could be done is nothing.

I get where you're coming from and all systems are open to abuse, especially where there's scope to manipulate your handicap, but it's (imo) a better system than CONGU, much more transparent and fairer. It requires a hands on approach from handicap committees and a willingness to act where manipulation is suspected.

dk1982

Apologies if this has been answered elsewhere but is the new system same as the old system when it comes to winter rules? I.e. Rounds played under winter rules are non qualifying so hcap not affected whether comp or casual round ?

blackbox

I think the WHS seems to be working reasonably well. Here are the top results from the August Medal in our club. I don't think you could say that the results favoured high handicappers - it looks like a reasonable mix to me (which it should be if handicaps are working properly). Also bear in mind that there are much fewer low handicappers.

bamayang

In general I would agree with what you’ve posted. But one caveat is stroke play is incredibly difficult for 25+ handicappers. 2-3 bad holes could be nearly 30 strokes. Doesn’t have the same impact on stableford.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117785293#Comment_117785293

The only meaningful way to look at how it's working (or not) is to collect lots of data and scrutinise it. How does handicap relate to liklihood to win? How does format affect it? Does it being a big comp affect it?

Pointing to individual comps or even individual scores don't say anything beyond they were the results of the comp that day or that was a particular person's round that day. They say nothing whatsoever about whether or not the new system is working.

I remember seeing an faq about the handicapping system years ago, before whs was even suggested. (So the old system). One of the faqs was whether it was harder to win a comp with a lower handicap. Basically, the lower your handicap the more likely you were to win a comp. This liklihood increased for strokeplay and matchplay. But the point was there to address the perception that it was much harder for lower handicap players to win comps.

That's the same perception as now. And if I was to put a euro wither was I'd say it's still wrong. But we haven't a clue until we see lots of data on it. Not a screenshot of a midweek open from some club a few hundred kilometres away and another of a captains day somewhere else.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117780251#Comment_117780251

It depends on the rules in play. There are model local rules that are allowed for handicap qualifying rounds. Placing on fairways within six inches and lift, clean and replace in the rough. If it's placing in the rough, it's not qualifying.

But none of these have anything to do with the handicapping system per se. They are more properly in the rules of golf.

TXPTGR1

Hi 25 handicapper here, I’ve got captains day coming up in my club and wondering if there’s any point playing as if I shoot a good score looks like I’ll be getting my name up in lights in various WhatsApp groups across the country

have well over 20 cards in this summer alone and have dropped 2 shots

big_drive

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117793628#Comment_117793628

What do you class as a "good" score?

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117793628#Comment_117793628

Play

if you win and start getting smart arses calling you bandit etc tell them to either p155 off or that you will make sure your handicap is 30 next year so that you can defend it ;)

Rikand

Play

And win

F*** the haters

big_drive

Play of course. Unless you know something we don't, unusual to be already thinking you'd win. Good confidence maybe for a 25 handicap!

I would say if you win with about 46+ points then there may be questions alright!

PabloAndRoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117793628#Comment_117793628

Also a high handicapper here, also dropped a few shots over the summer. Had a win a few weeks ago and all I am getting is "fair play to you, you put the work in" etc...

Only the very cynical would begrudge someone who is working on their game. F3ck the begrudgers!

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117765183#Comment_117765183

Not meaning to sound argumentative here at all, as I totally get your point and largely agree with the sentiment, but isn't the problem (if indeed it is one) with the new system, the fact that casual games are now allowed for handicap purposes, and if someone plays a week of bad golf, its tacitly allowed ? I know casual rounds were allowed under CONGU, but its a bit more "direct" now, given 0.1s are gone and we have much bigger potential jumps. Especially with so little travel nowadays, someone could easily have a week off, decide to play every day to try and get cut, but get nervous with a card in the pocket and have 5 bad rounds.

You're always going to have the odd p1ss taker, but asking someone to explain how they played bad for a week is a step too far imho and if it ever happened should be answered with an F and an O. If we're going to embrace the WHS we have to accept its flaws too unfortunately. Personally I think opinions and judgement have no place in handicap systems as they're too open to bias and abuse. What makes Joe on the handicap committee qualified to say Peter is a bandit ?

The Big Easy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117796806#Comment_117796806

Just get rid of the casual rounds (just too open to manipulation, both up and down) and have a max handicap for comps at each club's discretion (24 or something like that).

Think the calculation system itself is good, rolling average of best 8 from 20.

slingerz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117793628#Comment_117793628

If you come in with 45+ pts then make sure to wear your finest sombrero to the presentation

PARlance

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117793628#Comment_117793628

Play, try to win and if you do, enjoy it. You'll always get the odd comment but leave them off.

It's a very ill informed view (but it very common unfortunately) that it's "high" handicaps who are bandits.

Some of the biggest bandits in our place are high single digits to high teens...

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117796806#Comment_117796806

I take your point. However, handicap reviews are part of the system (always have been) and handicap committees are duty bound to examine any and all handicap records in order to make sure that members are playing with the correct handicap. Part of that process necessarily involves communication with the member(s) concerned and getting an F and an O to a request for same would be... ahem... frowned upon.

Cutting a member above and beyond what the system provides is not something taken lightly and would always require input from the member concerned. It's worse (imo) to do nothing.

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117796856#Comment_117796856

Couldn't disagree more with this. People will find a way to manipulate their handicap if they really want to, punishing 95% of players because there's a few bad eggs isn't right. I play golf to lower my handicap and to get as low as I can get, I don't care about competitions at all, I'll play them allright but mostly just majors and medals whenever it suits and I can get a decent tee time which isn't always easy. Where I can't get a tee time I'll play a casual round at a time that suits and love the option to put in a card outside of a competition, especially on a new course I don't know as its a nice way to challenge yourself. I'd be raging if they got rid of the casual rounds, people need to accept that people play golf at different times, for different reasons. The obsession some members (not saying you btw, just an observation at my club) have with competitions is one of the strangest things I found about joining a club after 10 years as a casual/society golfer.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117797496#Comment_117797496

This. I played Mount Juliet this year for the first time and logged it as a general play round on the Golf Ireland app. Now I have that round on my record which would never have been the case before. Even got a small handicap reduction from it. 🙂

padmcv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117797496#Comment_117797496

Same situation with me. Avoid entering competitions unless I have to.

The Big Easy

I don't know, I understand your views on it, but for me the handicap should be calculated on your play in fully competitive conditions.

I enjoy playing causal rounds and opens at other courses too and what if your playing partner wants to just play casually but you need him to mark your card?

I sometimes play casual rounds alone so it's of no benefit to me in those circumstances. I agree that it's probably useful for some short on playing opportunities through the year.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117797784#Comment_117797784

If your playing partner just wants to play casual they can do that but also mark your card. They don’t have to play a counting round to sign your round off

The Big Easy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117798114#Comment_117798114

But theoretically they are responsible for verifying your score, I know in reality this isn't taken all that seriously. And they might not want to be keeping track of what you're doing or not doing outside of a competition.

Mantis Toboggan

I'd agree that handicap qualifying should be in comps. Tougher playing conditions/atmosphere in comp than it is playing some casual golf with your friends in the evening. If there's someone off scratch yet all their scores are from casual rounds would you really class then as a scratch golfer? I know I wouldn't anyway.

Ivefoundgod

You would still have to play in a certain number of comps every year anyway so its not like someone can get to scratch without ever playing a competition. If someones WHS is 0 then they're a scratch golfer whether you want to accept it or not as it is the official handicap system. Anyone who gets their WHS down to 0 is worthy of my respect as they are clearly playing consistently excellent golf whether its in comps or casually.

Course setup might be different for some casual rounds but I've played casual rounds the evening of one of our majors with the exact same setup as those who played the comp (they'd taken in normal tees so was off the tips) so the course setup thing isn't really relevant. Theres also plenty of comps off the normal tees in my club so again I don't see any real difference between a casual and comp round. Its a personal opinion but I think all the stuff about the game being a different story 'with a card in your pocket' is a load of rubbish. I've played casual rounds with low single digit players who've hacked their way around for 18 holes and I've played with high handicappers in competitive rounds who shot the lights out, at the level most amateurs are at it is completely random what way your game is for a round and will average out over the course of year. I don't know what you mean by atmosphere but I've never noticed anything different except for some friendly banter when there is a comp on.

Anyway I don't ever see them abolishing casual rounds particularly as its a massive part of USGAs plans as well as England Golfs upcoming plans to allow nomads maintain a handicap.