COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

12-04-2021 03:21PM

eoinbn wrote: »

It is very likely that the people that have gotten the first dose will get something else for the second - unless they are over 60.
You are assuming that we will do all the over 60s with AZ - some won't.
They will be done with what ever is available as they are at a relatively high risk. However the 12 week gap does help.
We should start the 65-69 asap. Use as many AZ for the next month. After that it will just be used for second doses.
If the same thing happens with J&J it will be a big blow.

Would not be so sure - no cases after 2nd dose I believe. The heightened immune response that triggers the issue seems to follow the initial dose within 2 weeks

Rebelbrowser · 12-04-2021 03:22PM

Turtwig wrote: »

Solicitors will take any case. Doesn't mean it has merit.

Well certain solicitors will if they see sufficient upside, most solicitors wouldn't touch this kind of thing with a barge pole. As we don't (yet) have class actions per se in Ireland we are less of a litigation risk than, say, the US.

RavenBea17b · 12-04-2021 03:24PM

Sanjuro wrote: »

My mam's friend has a GP who has never computerised. Does everything with paper and pencil. Real old school type. Unsurprisingly, it's been absolute chaos trying to get his patients vaccinated. Said friend is 75. Not a sign of getting even the first dose so far.

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Anyone who got their first Az shot would rightly refuse the second shot at this point too

Why would that be ? Risk of blood clots are being monitored. Notification of signs too for each person vaccinated. Does that mean women who take the contraceptive pill refuse now.

How about people start refusing the Johnson Jansen one as well, due similar type of blood clots ongoing investigations. I understand that the type of clot is rare.

I would look at the balance of catching COVID vs risk of clot.
If at some point maybe we get asked to take an aspirin or anti clot medication of some sort for a month or so after a jab,(any jab) then so be it. (IMHO). I am not a medic, but having seen the damage that long Covid is doing, I will take a chance.
I think I read somewhere that there is research about the platelet impact - related to if you have already had Covid. Many Covid sufferers have increased blood clot risks and have been impacted by clots. Each day more is being learnt about the ongoing effects of the virus and the impact of vaccines.

noplacehere · 12-04-2021 03:24PM

Ah ffs. I would have preferred a different one but I still danced up to get my first dose (cohort 4). Now what the **** do they do. I don’t want a mix and match jabs? Sod that. Either finish me properly or give me a fill proper mRNA vaccine schedule. This is a mess of a recommendation

iamwhoiam · 12-04-2021 03:27PM

So the only people now getting AZ are age 60-70 ?

lbj666 · 12-04-2021 03:28PM

Russman wrote: »

So, if the figures in post #8606 are correct, there are 483,100 people between 60 & 69 in the country. That would mean 966k doses required.
We've already administered 233k AZ - presumably they're mostly first doses, would there be much overlap with the 966k above ?
We'll still probably need around a million AZ shots in total, give or take.

Ya i thinking this may not significantly effect rollout on a broader level than we might think. 233k you say will be getting their 2nd dose in June. 483k 60-69s will get theirs before that, so thats your AZ allocation til end of June used up more or less.

Problem is do you really ring fence AZ and AZ only for one of the last remaining real at risk groups and how much it would prolongue things. NIAC have advised already about oldest first regardless, so they might stay out of the logistical bit of that.

I'll say again, broadening the dosing interval for pfizer when we get to less risk groups would ease the burden big time.

funnydoggy · 12-04-2021 03:29PM

Hmm.. My 30 year old other half is due to get her vaccine tomorrow in Parc Uí Chaoimh too but my mammy's GP said they're only doing AZ down there. What's the craic then I wonder. Guess I'll wait for an official announcement.

stephenjmcd · 12-04-2021 03:31PM

Can't see 180-190k being reached this week now to be honest. They'll have to change things up in terms of logistics etc, that'll take a little bit of time to do.

iamwhoiam · 12-04-2021 03:34PM

So will under 60 now get their 2nd dose of AZ ?

12-04-2021 03:35PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Its a very very rare side effect and a very small number of cases relative to the amount of AZ used.

I fail to see how they've come up with this recommendation to be honest.

None of us would take any medication or vaccine if we knew the very very rare side effects to each one.

(queue the replies of this isn't any other medication - they all come with a list of rare side effects)

Because even if the risk is very low, this vaccine has caused a fairly significant number of deaths (32 across the UK, Germany and Norway alone). Many of those deaths were in young people who would be at a very low risk from covid. And that's only the deaths, the other 75% of people who developed CVST and survived could be dealing with after effects for some time.

When there are other vaccines available that are not causing otherwise healthy people to die from a blood clot, it's sensible to use them. Especially when they make up 80% of our supply.

vienne86 · 12-04-2021 03:36PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

So the only people now getting AZ are age 60-70 ?

Yep. They've loads of it, so we'll probably get offered one in each arm!

vienne86 · 12-04-2021 03:41PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

So will under 60 now get their 2nd dose of AZ ?

Good question.

Dressoutlet · 12-04-2021 03:42PM

I'm a very optimistic person. And I always say everything happens for a reason.
I now believe AZ not delivering the promised vaccines in Q1 was a blessing In disguise. I'm cohort 4 and in my 30s, but high risk for blood clots so I don't think my GP will recommend me to take AZ.

Russman · 12-04-2021 03:46PM

The response when the online portal opens up for the 65-69 year olds will be very telling IMO. I suppose that's likely to change to the 60-69 year olds now, assuming the recommendation is accepted.

I dunno, I really thought they go with 40s or 50s, rather than 60s. I'll preface this by saying I'd take AZ tomorrow, but its such a bad look that only one 10 year block of elderly people are being given the vaccine that, rightly or wrongly, is perceived as being unsafe or inferior. I know the risk of covid Vs vaccine etc etc, but just from a layman's perspective of how it looks.

Not a lot they could do and its not anyone's fault, but still. Won't take much for AZ to be relegated to COVAX donations by wealthier countries.

Stheno · 12-04-2021 03:54PM

Russman wrote: »

The response when the online portal opens up for the 65-69 year olds will be very telling IMO. I suppose that's likely to change to the 60-69 year olds now, assuming the recommendation is accepted.

I dunno, I really thought they go with 40s or 50s, rather than 60s. I'll preface this by saying I'd take AZ tomorrow, but its such a bad look that only one 10 year block of elderly people are being given the vaccine that, rightly or wrongly, is perceived as being unsafe or inferior. I know the risk of covid Vs vaccine etc etc, but just from a layman's perspective of how it looks.

Not a lot they could do and its not anyone's fault, but still. Won't take much for AZ to be relegated to COVAX donations by wealthier countries.

I think the one adverse reaction here so far was a woman in their 40s so that may have guided this new rationale somewhat?

titan18 · 12-04-2021 03:55PM

Surprised they went 60+, thought they'd at least go 50. It shouldn't make any impact really (bar logistically) until another 3 weeks so maybe by then things will be clearer. As someone in their 30s in group 7, I'd much rather Pfizer over AZ at this stage. I'd be close to rejecting AZ and just waiting tbh.

Wonder will they start giving AZ to over 70s or are they just going to limit to 60-69.

lbj666 · 12-04-2021 03:56PM

Russman wrote: »

The response when the online portal opens up for the 65-69 year olds will be very telling IMO. I suppose that's likely to change to the 60-69 year olds now, assuming the recommendation is accepted.

I dunno, I really thought they go with 40s or 50s, rather than 60s. I'll preface this by saying I'd take AZ tomorrow, but its such a bad look that only one 10 year block of elderly people are being given the vaccine that, rightly or wrongly, is perceived as being unsafe or inferior. I know the risk of covid Vs vaccine etc etc, but just from a layman's perspective of how it looks.

Not a lot they could do and its not anyone's fault, but still. Won't take much for AZ to be relegated to COVAX donations by wealthier countries.

Correct me if am wrong but I understood that the CST was an issue with 50 and younger and there was not as elevated levels in say 60+.

So as such it isnt really a risk vs benefit call in that cohort, more that it is simply "safer" in older groups.

titan18 · 12-04-2021 03:58PM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I'm also in my 30s, no underlying conditions, and I'd walk to the other side of the country for an AZ vaccine.

Ya, some will and some won't want to risk it. Someone said earlier about maybe asking people to sign waivers for AZ if they want it, and whilst I doubt they will do that, if people want it and we have supply, I'm all for anyone taking the chance. Just prefer it's not me.

eoinbn · 12-04-2021 04:00PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Would not be so sure - no cases after 2nd dose I believe. The heightened immune response that triggers the issue seems to follow the initial dose within 2 weeks

How many people have gotten a second dose? Nobody outside of the UK. Probably not many in the lower age groups in the UK.

crossman47 · 12-04-2021 04:02PM

titan18 wrote: »

Just prefer it's not me.

I'm afraid most people don't understand risk. The risk from getting Covid is way higher then that from AZ. Its the same lack of understanding that led to children dying from measles when a vaccine was available but people listened to a charlatan.

12-04-2021 04:05PM

lbj666 wrote: »

Correct me if am wrong but I understood that the CST was an issue with 50 and younger and there was not as elevated levels in say 60+.

So as such it isnt really a risk vs benefit call in that cohort, more that it is simply "safer" in older groups.

The approach being taken is very cautious. If at a later date the rules are relaxed again this shows there is very high confidence in the safety of the vaccine.

Some of the drugs below also known to trigger thrombocytopenia

Furosemide
Gold, used to treat arthritis
Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs)
Penicillin
Quinidine
Quinine
Ranitidine
Sulfonamides
Linezolid and other antibiotics
Statins

titan18 · 12-04-2021 04:07PM

crossman47 wrote: »

I'm afraid most people don't understand risk. The risk from getting Covid is way higher then that from AZ. Its the same lack of understanding that led to children dying from measles when a vaccine was available but people listened to a charlatan.

Sure, but there's less risk with a different vaccine, so if my options are AZ now or Pfizer in 3 months, I'd prefer to wait. The options aren't just risk of side effects from AZ or risk of covid, there's more there.

greenerie · 12-04-2021 04:08PM

I received a text to come for my vaccine (:))but have had to reschedule due to another appointment. Sent the requested reply of 'Reschedule' but received nothing back - anyone else experienced this?

12-04-2021 04:11PM

crossman47 wrote: »

I'm afraid most people don't understand risk. The risk from getting Covid is way higher then that from AZ. Its the same lack of understanding that led to children dying from measles when a vaccine was available but people listened to a charlatan.

1. This assumes a binary choice of AZ v Covid. But AZ only makes up 20% of our supply. We have other vaccines.

2. The risk of covid is not higher than the risk of AZ for everyone. The younger you are, the higher the risk from AZ in comparison to the benefit, as highlighted by the MHRA last week.

seamus · 12-04-2021 04:11PM

Euch, what a mess.

All is not lost though.

If AZ can only be used on the 60+ cohort, then it will be used as a matter of priority on them, and other vaccines only used to fill the gaps.

This means an overavailability of the other vaccines, which means that we should be able to clean up the 70+ cohort a bit faster, AND move on to the younger age groups faster too. We'll likely be doing 50-59 age group in parallel with the 60-69.

While the AZ dosing regime in use is 12 weeks, that's a maximum. The second dose can be provided after 4 weeks, and if we have "too much" AZ, then it's likely the dosing schedule will be tightened up to 4/5 weeks. The biggest issue (IMO) with AZ is the 3-month window. We can't have the most vulnerable cohorts sitting half-vaccinated until August/September. So hopefully we can abandon that now.

It'll make things tricky in the vaccination centres though. There'll need to be separate areas set up for AZ and non-AZ vaccinations.

sd1999 · 12-04-2021 04:13PM

I do think RTÉ announcing it early is a bad move because I imagine NIAC/HSE will be providing more details about the rollout going forward in the actual announcement. As of right now, we know AZ is only for over 60s but we don’t know anything else.

lbj666 · 12-04-2021 04:14PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The approach being taken is very cautious. If at a later date the rules are relaxed again this shows there is very high confidence in the safety of the vaccine.

Some of the drugs below also known to trigger thrombocytopenia

Furosemide
Gold, used to treat arthritis
Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs)
Penicillin
Quinidine
Quinine
Ranitidine
Sulfonamides
Linezolid and other antibiotics
Statins

Not the question I asked, i know its very rare but is the likelyhood less in 60+ based on the data so far, because thats worth emphasising to the 60-69 group if it is.

Or is it only the likelyhood of severe covid or death that increases the risk ratio's enough for it to still be recommended.

stephenjmcd · 12-04-2021 04:15PM

GPs are out having their say,

"Dr Denis McAuley, the chair of the Irish Medical Organisation’s GP committee, said the impact of the anticipated change on the vaccine rollout will be significant. "

"If AstraZeneca cannot be given to younger groups, it effectively means “there’s less vaccine available and more people to vaccinate”.

namloc1980 · 12-04-2021 04:16PM

Should have used AZ on the over 70s also. Why was Pfizer and Moderna ringfenced to that cohort?

Turtwig · 12-04-2021 04:17PM

AZ on shorter dosing schedules is not recommended. The immune response in the initial clinical trials was not very good.

Mix and match would effectively be making people guinea pigs without affording them the protections they'd get in a clinical trial.

Imo it has to be the option to continue with AZ for those already dosed. Or a full vaccination from MRNA.

I've a feeling, J & J will have the same issue as AZ.

COVID-19: Vaccine and testing procedures Megathread Part 3 - Read OP

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