EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

is_that_so · 03-03-2021 1:29pm

An article on the the variety of issues around this topic.

Public health officials and civil liberty organizations are urging policymakers to resist calls for coronavirus vaccine passports, at a time when many countries are in the process of reviewing whether to introduce digital passes.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/25/covid-vaccine-passports-health-experts-are-deeply-concerned.html

HansKroenke · 03-03-2021 1:33pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Most people will be vaccinated here, but some will have problems for whatever reason and while the vaccine is 90% effective it is not totally effective. It is perfectly rational not to allow unvaccinated people visit.

PCR tests and isolation may still have a role, but if a person from an infected country does get vaccinated why should that not be recognised? Or if an Irish person goes there?

A vaccination passport linked to your real passport is a straightforward measure, there is no reason not to have it once vaccinations become available.

This comment is the problem of those with covid blinkers on. They don't seem to realise that covid is not the only show in town. There are a whole rake of measures that could be seen as rational to take in order to protect different people from different things. It's perfectly rational to require healthcare workers to isolate themselves around flu season in order to ensure a lower chance of spreading flu to the vulnerable patients. But it's also ridiculous for reasons I don't need to go into.

robinph · 03-03-2021 1:36pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Most people will be vaccinated here, but some will have problems for whatever reason and while the vaccine is 90% effective it is not totally effective. It is perfectly rational not to allow unvaccinated people visit.

PCR tests and isolation may still have a role, but if a person from an infected country does get vaccinated why should that not be recognised? Or if an Irish person goes there?

A vaccination passport linked to your real passport is a straightforward measure, there is no reason not to have it once vaccinations become available.

But it really doesn't matter if the vaccines are "only" 90% effective. All that the lockdown have ever been about is ensuring that health services in each country are able to help you when you fall off a ladder and brake you leg. If a handful of people die of covid each year, whilst that is bad for those people and their families, it's of no real concern to the country as a whole.

If 90% of cases are prevented by vaccines and a country has the vast majority of their population vaccinated then there is nothing to be gained from requiring your own population to have vaccine passports, and almost as little to be gained from requiring it of visitors to your country. It's only purpose would be to keep some civil servants in jobs to administer the system.

Zero benefit for the health of the nation from vaccine passports.

ginoginelli · 03-03-2021 3:05pm

robinph wrote: »

But it really doesn't matter if the vaccines are "only" 90% effective. All that the lockdown have ever been about is ensuring that health services in each country are able to help you when you fall off a ladder and brake you leg. If a handful of people die of covid each year, whilst that is bad for those people and their families, it's of no real concern to the country as a whole.

If 90% of cases are prevented by vaccines and a country has the vast majority of their population vaccinated then there is nothing to be gained from requiring your own population to have vaccine passports, and almost as little to be gained from requiring it of visitors to your country. It's only purpose would be to keep some civil servants in jobs to administer the system.

Zero benefit for the health of the nation from vaccine passports.

It's going to a significant amount of time before 90 percent or so of countries are vaccinated, due to delayed child vaccinations etc.

In the meantime the vaccine passport will give us a safety net to facilitate travel and tourism.

robinph · 03-03-2021 3:15pm

ginoginelli wrote: »

It's going to a significant amount of time before 90 percent or so of countries are vaccinated, due to delayed child vaccinations etc.

In the meantime the vaccine passport will give us a safety net to facilitate travel and tourism.

The UK is likely to be at that level by the end of the summer for their adult population, the US claims they will be some time around the summer as well.

The children are not as much of an issue. It's something that mostly effects the older adult population and whilst treatment for those who do get ill will need to be progressing, there is no logical reason to implement international vaccine passport system because a handful of children might get ill... But they are mostly protected by the majority of the people who might be carriers, as in the adults in the population, have all been vaccinated.

Now it will take a longer time for the world to be vaccinated, but that won't stop Europeans going on holiday to Europe where there levels of infection and vaccination are going to be relatively similar.

ginoginelli · 03-03-2021 3:41pm

robinph wrote: »

The UK is likely to be at that level by the end of the summer for their adult population, the US claims they will be some time around the summer as well.

The children are not as much of an issue. It's something that mostly effects the older adult population and whilst treatment for those who do get ill will need to be progressing, there is no logical reason to implement international vaccine passport system because a handful of children might get ill... But they are mostly protected by the majority of the people who might be carriers, as in the adults in the population, have all been vaccinated.

Now it will take a longer time for the world to be vaccinated, but that won't stop Europeans going on holiday to Europe where there levels of infection and vaccination are going to be relatively similar.

Its not just the children though, Anybody who isn't vaccinated has the potential to spread it, then with the added uncertainty about the new variants, which could possibly negate the vaccine and introduce a whole new strain to a region it's just too risky.

Vaccine passports are a cautious and common sense approach to kick starting travel. Hopefully it's just a short term measure and we wont need them in a few years.

robinph · 03-03-2021 3:53pm

ginoginelli wrote: »

Its not just the children though, Anybody who isn't vaccinated has the potential to spread it, then with the added uncertainty about the new variants, which could possibly negate the vaccine and introduce a whole new strain to a region it's just too risky.

Vaccine passports are a cautious and common sense approach to kick starting travel. Hopefully it's just a short term measure and we wont need them in a few years.

If the vaccines don't work on new strains then what is a proof of vaccination for?

The idea of the vaccination passport does sound sensible, but the moment you look at what it actually achieves they are pointless.

It's important for a country to reach a high level of vaccination in their population, a "stick" of a vaccine passport before you let them do certain things is one way to get that result, but a bad one as you just create a black market for the document and a population which hates the idea of vaccination even more.

The only point I can see having proof of vaccination as being useful for travelling is for your home country in letting you leave. The destination country doesn't care, if they have low vaccine take up then you make no difference, if you catch it whilst there you'll be gone back home before they have to care for you. Only place that should care about it is your home country who might have to look after you on your return from a covid hot-spot if you travelled there without vaccination.

ginoginelli · 03-03-2021 4:23pm

robinph wrote: »

If the vaccines don't work on new strains then what is a proof of vaccination for?

The idea of the vaccination passport does sound sensible, but the moment you look at what it actually achieves they are pointless.

It's important for a country to reach a high level of vaccination in their population, a "stick" of a vaccine passport before you let them do certain things is one way to get that result, but a bad one as you just create a black market for the document and a population which hates the idea of vaccination even more.

The only point I can see having proof of vaccination as being useful for travelling is for your home country in letting you leave. The destination country doesn't care, if they have low vaccine take up then you make no difference, if you catch it whilst there you'll be gone back home before they have to care for you. Only place that should care about it is your home country who might have to look after you on your return from a covid hot-spot if you travelled there without vaccination.

While the jury is still out, the evidence is pointing towards the vaccines stopping transmission, so no matter what strain somebody picks up, if they are vaccinated, they are far less likely to spread it.

Youre reaching a bit with the black market document I think. The same arguments could be for made for forging a regular passport, or a drivers licence, that doesnt mean we stop using them.

Just to touch on something I read in your previous post that I found disturbing. The statment that children are not much of an issue, and it doesnt really matter, as only a few might get ill, really irks me.

Yes, it appears to be very mild in children, but this is a novel virus, we still dont know what effects it may have down the line. I'm certainly not ok with taking an indifferent approach to protecting their health. Especially when there is a simple safeguard - vaccine passport - than can be utilized.

Another key component in the role children getting vaccinated will play is countries achieving herd immunity.

This is going to take time, possibly a few years or more. In the meantime vaccine passports, in some form, will be an important tool.

robinph · 03-03-2021 4:38pm

ginoginelli wrote: »

While the jury is still out, the evidence is pointing towards the vaccines stopping transmission, so no matter what strain somebody picks up, if they are vaccinated, they are far less likely to spread it.

Youre reaching a bit with the black market document I think. The same arguments could be for made for forging a regular passport, or a drivers licence, that doesnt mean we stop using them.

Just to touch on something I read in your previous post that I found disturbing. The statment that children are not much of an issue, and it doesnt really matter, as only a few might get ill, really irks me.

Yes, it appears to be very mild in children, but this is a novel virus, we still dont know what effects it may have down the line. I'm certainly not ok with taking an indifferent approach to protecting their health. Especially when there is a simple safeguard - vaccine passport - than can be utilized.

Another key component in the role children getting vaccinated will play is countries achieving herd immunity.

This is going to take time, possibly a few years or more. In the meantime vaccine passports, in some form, will be an important tool.

Regarding children, the reason that countries don't need to be worried about them is because if the virus is widespread the hospitals weren't overwhelmed with cases of badly ill children. Once the virus is suppressed in the adult population, which is responsible for most cases, most transmission and most hospitalisations, then they can deal with the absolutely tiny number of other cases which might occur with children.

If adults are not transmitting it through the population, why would it be getting anywhere among the far less mobile population of children?

robinph · 03-03-2021 5:07pm

From the US statistics for the pandemic so far, out of 500,000+ deaths there have been 204 deaths of under 18s. Whilst tragic for those families, it is not a reason to implement some massive bureaucracy on the entire population of the country which will have no benefit. Especially as once you have the adult population vaccinated there is no reason to think that over the next 12 months there will be the same rate of death among under 18s whilst massively reduced among the adult population.

Edit: and during the same time period in the US they had 602 deaths from pneumonia for under 18s, just for comparison of the scale of the issue.

HansKroenke · 03-03-2021 5:25pm

robinph wrote: »

From the US statistics for the pandemic so far, out of 500,000+ deaths there have been 204 deaths of under 18s. Whilst tragic for those families, it is not a reason to implement some massive bureaucracy on the entire population of the country which will have no benefit. Especially as once you have the adult population vaccinated there is no reason to think that over the next 12 months there will be the same rate of death among under 18s whilst massively reduced among the adult population.

Edit: and during the same time period in the US they had 602 deaths from pneumonia for under 18s, just for comparison of the scale of the issue.

In Ireland, it has followed a similar pattern of a tiny proportion of cases which require hospitalisation in children. It is worrying that healthy people have become terrified of contracting covid as if it is almost luck which determines your own outcome, but at the same time it is understandable given the ferocious awareness campaign of the last year which can lead to this irrational fear.

Separately, the fear mongering about new variants and unknowns really needs to be muzzled without any hard evidence as it is unhelpful at this stage to create an unnecessary fear as we are on the home stretch for easing all restrictions.

1800_Ladladlad · 24-03-2021 8:27pm

IMPORTANT

On 25 March 2021 MEPs will be asked to vote on the examination procedure for the Digital Green Certificate Regulation. Please email your MEP to let them know you do not agree to the implementation of such certificate. See email template and list of MEP emails below drafted by Tracey O'Mahony [B.A., LL.B, B.L.] I edited the template to suite myswelf.

RE:

Brussels 17.3.2021 – COM (2021) 130 final; 2021/0068 (COD) Proposal for a Regulation to the European Parliament and the Council on a framework for the issuance, verification and acceptance of interoperable certificates for vaccination, testing and recovery to facilitate free movement during the COVID-19 pandemic (hereinafter referred to as “Digital Green Certificate Regulation”

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1jwpXij_VKV9LE9Unw3Dv-fBKX036NPyw

speckle · 25-03-2021 8:55am

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

IMPORTANT

On 25 March 2021 MEPs will be asked to vote on the examination procedure for the Digital Green Certificate Regulation. Please email your MEP to let them know you do not agree to the implementation of such certificate. See email template and list of MEP emails below drafted by Tracey O'Mahony [B.A., LL.B, B.L.] I edited the template to suite myswelf.

RE:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1jwpXij_VKV9LE9Unw3Dv-fBKX036NPyw

This should not be voted on in europe where there is little accountability when national parliaments have not even discussed the details with their own countrys people at the very least.

Europe has had a shambolic response in this last year regarding this virus and is not trustworthy with legislation such as the above.

josip · 25-03-2021 10:41am

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

IMPORTANT

On 25 March 2021 MEPs will be asked to vote on the examination procedure for the Digital Green Certificate Regulation. Please email your MEP to let them know you do not agree to the implementation of such certificate. See email template and list of MEP emails below drafted by Tracey O'Mahony [B.A., LL.B, B.L.] I edited the template to suite myswelf.

RE:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1jwpXij_VKV9LE9Unw3Dv-fBKX036NPyw

Thanks Ladlad, I didn't realise such a vote was taking place.
I've emailed my MEPs telling them that I fully support the measure.
Without your heads up, I'd have missed it.

paw patrol · 25-03-2021 11:14am

josip wrote: »

Thanks Ladlad, I didn't realise such a vote was taking place.
I've emailed my MEPs telling them that I fully support the measure.
Without your heads up, I'd have missed it.

it's amazing what people will give up for a little bit of fear.
It's covid today and in 5 years it will be a heap more.

but well done you being such a responsible citizen.:rolleyes:

josip · 25-03-2021 11:31am

paw patrol wrote: »

it's amazing what people will give up for a little bit of fear.
It's covid today and in 5 years it will be a heap more.

but well done you being such a responsible citizen.:rolleyes:

I don't understand your reference to 'fear', could you expand on that please?

1800_Ladladlad · 25-03-2021 11:51am

josip wrote: »

Thanks Ladlad, I didn't realise such a vote was taking place.
I've emailed my MEPs telling them that I fully support the measure.
Without your heads up, I'd have missed it.

We are all in this together. 5 Social Credits for you.

robinph · 25-03-2021 11:56am

There is a lot of noise today around pubs requiring vaccine passports in the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56517486

Still not seeing the point of it though.

At the moment the pubs are shut. If the pubs reopen as expected in April in the UK then the only people who'd be able to go to the pub would be the over 50's. Then sometime during the summer if the vaccine rollout continues as planned and everyone has been offered a vaccine you then have the option for all adults to be able to go to the pub... but the pubs will have been open for several months at that point with only 50 year olds able to go to them. What about the bar staff who haven't been given a vaccine yet, do they get banned from working?

Then once you have all the population offered a vaccine such that the government releases all social distancing requirements... why does it then matter if you have been vaccinated or not in order to go to the pub? If the social distancing requirements don't exist, then what makes pubs a special environment that social distancing from those who happen to be unvaccinated for whatever reason is required?

If the cases are low and 80% of the adult population has been vaccinated, then why do you need to prove vaccination to have a pint?

paw patrol · 25-03-2021 12:08pm

josip wrote: »

I don't understand your reference to 'fear', could you expand on that please?

what your determination to want vaccine passports?
What has has you so determined to give up your personal freedom and bodily autonomy to the state? because it will only be used to restrict people.
If it isn't fear of the covid . please tell me your motivation

josip · 25-03-2021 12:32pm

paw patrol wrote: »

what your determination to want vaccine passports?
What has has you so determined to give up your personal freedom and bodily autonomy to the state? because it will only be used to restrict people.
If it isn't fear of the covid . please tell me your motivation

You've got it completely wrong.
I want my personal freedom back and there isn't any fear of Covid involved.
Every year we drive across and around Europe for the summer.
We had to skip last summer and we're not going to skip this year.
Ferries are booked and if necessary we'll PCR our way over and back.
But a vaccine passport will make our travel much easier and allow us to enjoy the journey.

paw patrol · 25-03-2021 12:40pm

josip wrote: »

You've got it completely wrong.
I want my personal freedom back and there isn't any fear of Covid involved.
Every year we drive across and around Europe for the summer.
We had to skip last summer and we're not going to skip this year.
Ferries are booked and if necessary we'll PCR our way over and back.
But a vaccine passport will make our travel much easier and allow us to enjoy the journey.

Ok fair enough. I take the fear accusation back

My understanding from that is that you want this passport so you can be permitted to do nice things. Wouldn't it not be better to do the nice things without vaccine passports?
Cos once restrictions are in place based on the passport , it will only be there to coerce people into getting a vaccine whereas they normally wouldn't.

This passport won't stop at covid , it never does and will be the foot in the door to mandatory vaccinations - of course they won't be mandatory just impossible to live a free life without them.

josip · 25-03-2021 1:02pm

paw patrol wrote: »

Ok fair enough. I take the fear accusation back

My understanding from that is that you want this passport so you can be permitted to do nice things. Wouldn't it not be better to do the nice things without vaccine passports?
Cos once restrictions are in place based on the passport , it will only be there to coerce people into getting a vaccine whereas they normally wouldn't.

This passport won't stop at covid , it never does and will be the foot in the door to mandatory vaccinations - of course they won't be mandatory just impossible to live a free life without them.

Correct, I want to be able to do nice things, in our case travel.
We've not been overly selfish for the past 12 months, we followed all the rules, didn't endanger anyone, stayed in Ireland last year and now that the vulnerable are vaccinated we no longer see a need to lock ourselves in.

I understand some people have concerns regarding restrictions based on the passport. I think that's just the world we're in now and there will be certain activities we partook in previously that we can longer take for granted, at least in the short term.

For example, when we first started driving Europe in the summer, we basically just packed the car, got on the boat and drove.
Later on, we wanted to drive outside the EU so we needed to get IDPs (personal details to the AA) and green cards from the insurers.
We used to be able to drive anywhere anytime in Europe.
We've since had to sign up for the French Crit Air and the German Badge if we want to access certain cities and on certain dates.
https://www.umwelt-plakette.de/en.html
https://www.certificat-air.gouv.fr/en/

We're happy to do this because things change and if we weren't prepared to accept change it wouldn't be long before we stopped traveling.
We'll all be dead soon enough, we're going to enjoy it while we can.

josip · 25-03-2021 1:11pm

paw patrol wrote: »

Ok fair enough. I take the fear accusation back

My understanding from that is that you want this passport so you can be permitted to do nice things. Wouldn't it not be better to do the nice things without vaccine passports?
Cos once restrictions are in place based on the passport , it will only be there to coerce people into getting a vaccine whereas they normally wouldn't.

This passport won't stop at covid , it never does and will be the foot in the door to mandatory vaccinations - of course they won't be mandatory just impossible to live a free life without them.

Also, I'd be way more concerned about our government closing the Passport Office for months and restricting travel that way.
I can't believe they've been allowed to get away with doing that.
That's a much more insidious action than an additional vaccine passport.

paw patrol · 25-03-2021 3:20pm

josip wrote: »

Also, I'd be way more concerned about our government closing the Passport Office for months and restricting travel that way.
I can't believe they've been allowed to get away with doing that.
That's a much more insidious action than an additional vaccine passport.

I fully agree , the underhand antics with the passport office is a horrible abuse of power.

robinph · 25-03-2021 3:41pm

josip wrote: »

That's a much more insidious action than an additional vaccine passport.

I don't think it is necessarily insidious setting up vaccine passports, although there is certainly the option there for it to become something more once implemented.

It is just a waste of time, effort and money for all concerned and provides absolutely nothing useful in the fighting of the virus or stopping it spread. Certainly not in terms of letting people go to pubs, and only very negligible benefit in international travel between certain countries. And in terms of international travel the reasons for bringing in a vaccine passport requirement are completely back to front.

Country A with high vaccine take up doesn't need you to prove vaccination to go to the pub because most of the population is vaccinated so everyone is protected anyway. Waste of time to have a vaccine passport and just excludes those who cannot be vaccinated.

Country B with low vaccine take up. Person from Country B isn't going to be permitted to visit Country A anyway if the virus is rampant in Country B, and if you can't get the vaccine because country B isn't providing it in sufficient numbers to the population then you can hardly get a vaccine passport either from country B.

Person from Country A who has been vaccinated isn't a risk to country B because they are coming from a country with low virus in the population, country B is probably not a great place to go to at that point in time if the virus is everywhere, and country B certainly won't give a damn if you've been vaccinated as they have enough problems of their own dealing with the virus and trying to persuade their population to be vaccinated. It might make sense for Country A to require you to have proof of vaccination before they let you leave Country A as they don't want you bringing anything back from Country B, but Country A is mostly protected anyway just by the fact that they have most of their population vaccinated and they won't be letting mass travel from Country B in anyway.

Country C also having high vaccine take up in their population then it really doesn't matter to A or C who of their citizens go between the two as they are both protected by high vaccine take up.

So the vaccine passport thing might be useful for Country B in trying to persuade a higher take up of the vaccine in their population before they will let you leave, but it is of no benefit to anyone else. The sole purpose it for the vaccine passport to be used as a stick to get people to take the vaccine...and that isn't really needed for Ireland as people will be taking it anyway in high numbers.

Risteard81 · 25-03-2021 9:55pm

robinph wrote: »

There is a lot of noise today around pubs requiring vaccine passports in the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56517486

Still not seeing the point of it though.

At the moment the pubs are shut. If the pubs reopen as expected in April in the UK then the only people who'd be able to go to the pub would be the over 50's. Then sometime during the summer if the vaccine rollout continues as planned and everyone has been offered a vaccine you then have the option for all adults to be able to go to the pub... but the pubs will have been open for several months at that point with only 50 year olds able to go to them. What about the bar staff who haven't been given a vaccine yet, do they get banned from working?

Then once you have all the population offered a vaccine such that the government releases all social distancing requirements... why does it then matter if you have been vaccinated or not in order to go to the pub? If the social distancing requirements don't exist, then what makes pubs a special environment that social distancing from those who happen to be unvaccinated for whatever reason is required?

If the cases are low and 80% of the adult population has been vaccinated, then why do you need to prove vaccination to have a pint?

The concept of vaccine passports is so completely, utterly and totally Treasonous - and must be viewed as such.

biko · 28-03-2021 3:00pm

It is being rolled out across the pond.

The nation’s very first “vaccine passport” is coming to the Big Apple.

The program, dubbed the “Excelsior Pass,” is an app that will allow New Yorkers to prove their vaccination status, or recent history of a negative COVID-19 test, in order to gain entry to events and businesses, Governor Cuomo announced in a news release Friday.

“Similar to a mobile airline boarding pass, individuals will be able to either print out their pass or store it on their smartphones using the Excelsior Pass Wallet app,” the news release explains.

Major venues, such as Madison Square Garden and the Times Union Center in Albany, will begin using the app next week and on April 2, Excelsior Pass will expand to “smaller arts, entertainment and event venues,” Cuomo’s office said.

https://nypost.com/2021/03/26/nations-first-covid-vaccine-passport-coming-to-new-york/

pottokblue · 28-03-2021 3:00pm

I have a vaccine since jan but no passport do I apply online??

28-03-2021 3:11pm

biko wrote: »

It is being rolled out across the pond.

The nation’s very first “vaccine passport” is coming to the Big Apple.

The program, dubbed the “Excelsior Pass,” is an app that will allow New Yorkers to prove their vaccination status, or recent history of a negative COVID-19 test, in order to gain entry to events and businesses, Governor Cuomo announced in a news release Friday.

“Similar to a mobile airline boarding pass, individuals will be able to either print out their pass or store it on their smartphones using the Excelsior Pass Wallet app,” the news release explains.

Major venues, such as Madison Square Garden and the Times Union Center in Albany, will begin using the app next week and on April 2, Excelsior Pass will expand to “smaller arts, entertainment and event venues,” Cuomo’s office said.

https://nypost.com/2021/03/26/nations-first-covid-vaccine-passport-coming-to-new-york/

The good thing about the US is the federal system of government there. For example, the Governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis, recently ruled out vaccine passports during a roundtable discussion with medical experts. So while it is happening in New York, it's unlikely to happen in the whole country because of the differences between the various states. That's why I think the federal system is good. Neil Oliver described America recently as a country made up of different countries. And even within states there's a lot of local governance. So if one state isn't the right fit then there are other states to consider. Joe Rogan, for example, moved from California to Texas. I think Elon Musk did too. The restrictions in California were just too much for them.

biko · 31-03-2021 12:02pm

The White House says it’s up to the private sector to develop vaccine passports and the government is not viewing its role as the place to create a passport or a place to hold the data of citizens.

White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki said in a separate briefing Monday there will be no centralized federal vaccination database, and no federal mandate requiring a single vaccination credential.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-29/vaccine-passport-push-to-come-from-private-sector-officials-say

What? It is the government's responsibility to oversee the scope and handing of such passports.
If not it will be just like state level gun permits, which is a mess for another thread.

EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

Comments