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EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

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Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,613 Mod ✭✭✭✭ robinph


    What's the alternative? Let all of those groups travel without a PCR test result and hope for the best? This wouldn't be helping those groups at all, simply increasing the spread of a disease they can't get a vaccine for.

    We also already have Yellow Fever certs, so this is not a new concept, and not some entryway into a dystopian nightmare; it just means more people can travel and more people can travel more safely.

    You get a yellow fever vaccine because you are travelling to somewhere that has yellow fever and a low rate of vaccination.

    If you need a covid vaccine to travel somewhere then you probably shouldn't be travelling there. In most cases people wanting to travel to the rest of Europe a vaccine passport is going to be entirely pointless. It's a waste of effort in implementing, and just discriminates against those who cannot take the vaccines for whatever reasons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,615 ✭✭✭ Russman


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Well if you're not in one of those groups off you go and wave your vaccine passport. I'm drawing attention to the very large practical problems with a vaccine passport. It looks like it's an "easy fix" one size fits all approach, when it's clearly not. This is all before you even get into areas of privacy and the discriminatory nature of the tool.

    Isn't the whole idea of a cert, to be discriminatory, though ? I mean, what's the point if its not discriminatory ? Surely the point is to differentiate between those that have been vaccinated (and/or negative PCR test, proof of prior infection), and those that have not.
    I think there are some instances in life were its ok for people to be told "no, you can't do xyz", however temporarily.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,251 ✭✭✭ speckle


    The EU proposal is not a vaccine passport but a ok to travel permit

    You have a choice to demonstrate vaccination, PCR test, or prior infection

    What about the 1000s who had early infections and never got tested as they were rationing them or refused ones recently over xmas when contact tracing collapsed.. should they have to fork out money every time the travel? By prior infection do you mean clinicaly diagnosised but with no pcr test?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,615 ✭✭✭ Russman


    speckle wrote: »
    What about the 1000s who had early infections and never got tested as they were rationing them or refused ones recently over xmas when contact tracing collapsed.. should they have to fork out money every time the travel? By prior infection do you mean clinicaly diagnosised but with no pcr test?

    They can get the vaccine ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,251 ✭✭✭ speckle


    What's the alternative? Let all of those groups travel without a PCR test result and hope for the best? This wouldn't be helping those groups at all, simply increasing the spread of a disease they can't get a vaccine for.

    We also already have Yellow Fever certs, so this is not a new concept, and not some entryway into a dystopian nightmare; it just means more people can travel and more people can travel more safely.

    You do know that there are exceptions for the yellow fever vaccine..due to adverse reactions in some immunocompromised people?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,140 ✭✭✭✭ is_that_so


    Russman wrote: »
    Isn't the whole idea of a cert, to be discriminatory, though ? I mean, what's the point if its not discriminatory ? Surely the point is to differentiate between those that have been vaccinated (and/or negative PCR test, proof of prior infection), and those that have not.
    I think there are some instances in life were its ok for people to be told "no, you can't do xyz", however temporarily.
    I always viewed a cert as a tracking mechanism and not to determine who gets into Lidl on a Thursday! The travel idea is to help countries get people moving this year. As I've pointed out repeatedly the passport prevents people who cannot get vaccinated from travelling. By insisting on the use of one it raises the of question of just how voluntary the vaccination programme is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,251 ✭✭✭ speckle


    Russman wrote: »
    They can get the vaccine ?

    Not if they are children or are trying to or are already pregnant or have previous adverse reactions to vaccines for example...it is in the literature from the vaccine manufactures and on the HSE website


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,140 ✭✭✭✭ is_that_so


    ixoy wrote: »
    The vaccine passport could have an exemption section or carry a special exemption waiver. If so, free PCR test. If not, pay for the PCR.
    How can you get a passport for what you haven't done? PCR is what we have anyway so why do proceed with what is likely to be a very convoluted alternative?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,168 ✭✭✭✭ josip


    is_that_so wrote: »
    I always viewed a cert as a tracking mechanism and not to determine who gets into Lidl on a Thursday! The travel idea is to help countries get people moving this year. As I've pointed out repeatedly the passport prevents people who cannot get vaccinated from travelling. By insisting on the use of one it raises the of question of just how voluntary the vaccination programme is.


    And you have been repeatedly corrected on this.
    You would have everyone continue to pay for expensive PCR tests just because some won't/can't get the vaccine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,140 ✭✭✭✭ is_that_so


    josip wrote: »
    And you have been repeatedly corrected on this.
    You would have everyone continue to pay for expensive PCR tests just because some won't/can't get the vaccine.
    I am not having anyone doing anything. There are a lot of potential problems with these passports but clearly none of that affects you. I'm more of fan of rapid tests once we get one right.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,891 Mod ✭✭✭✭ ixoy


    is_that_so wrote: »
    How can you get a passport for what you haven't done? PCR is what we have anyway so why do proceed with what is likely to be a very convoluted alternative?
    "Hello is_that_so. Vaccine passport please?"
    "I don't have one."
    "Okay, have you got a certified medical exemption as I see you're over 18?"
    "No"
    "Certified PCR test taken in the last day?"
    "No."
    "This way then for the test. It's a €50 administration fee. You'll need to allow an hour for the results."

    Something like the above. Not that I think any of this will happen, at least within the EU, for a variety of reasons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,615 ✭✭✭ Russman


    speckle wrote: »
    Not if they are children or are trying to or are already pregnant or have previous adverse reactions to vaccines for example...it is in the literature from the vaccine manufactures and on the HSE website

    Then they pay for a test before they travel.
    Coming out of this pandemic there are going to be instances where people are inconvenienced, perhaps unfairly, perhaps not.
    I don’t know if they’ll ever come into play in reality, but it’s definitely more than possible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,615 ✭✭✭ Russman


    is_that_so wrote: »
    I always viewed a cert as a tracking mechanism and not to determine who gets into Lidl on a Thursday! The travel idea is to help countries get people moving this year. As I've pointed out repeatedly the passport prevents people who cannot get vaccinated from travelling. By insisting on the use of one it raises the of question of just how voluntary the vaccination programme is.

    I’m not saying to get into a supermarket, but maybe stadia or concerts, who knows.
    My own thought is that the programme will be 100% voluntary, but there will be enough things you can’t do without a vaccine or negative test, that it will be really in your interest to get one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ ExMachina1000


    Over a quarter of a million brits have signed a petition against covid passports. Any official petition over 100,000 is debated in parliament.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,613 Mod ✭✭✭✭ robinph


    Over a quarter of a million brits have signed a petition against covid passports. Any official petition over 100,000 is debated in parliament.

    It's not something that the UK government wants to do, but if other governments require something then they will need to provide some mechanism or people won't be able to travel.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,755 ✭✭✭✭ MadYaker


    is_that_so wrote: »
    I am not having anyone doing anything. There are a lot of potential problems with these passports but clearly none of that affects you. I'm more of fan of rapid tests once we get one right.

    You're more of a fan of rapid tests which don't currently exist and the accuracy of which is totally unknown?


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,140 ✭✭✭✭ is_that_so


    MadYaker wrote: »
    You're more of a fan of rapid tests which don't currently exist and the accuracy of which is totally unknown?
    Neither do these passports. The tests exist, we have 500,000 of them here and there is a plan underway to evaluate the usage of them. The accuracy is a lot lower at present but there is now a prototype in France that claims to be at 90%, not too far below PCR. That's usable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,140 ✭✭✭✭ is_that_so


    robinph wrote: »
    It's not something that the UK government wants to do, but if other governments require something then they will need to provide some mechanism or people won't be able to travel.
    Only 65% of Germans and Americans support them and in France it's way lower.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ ExMachina1000


    Much earlier in the pandemic conspiracy theory types predicted covid passports and people mocked them for it.

    Looks like they were right after all


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,569 ✭✭✭ patnor1011


    Much earlier in the pandemic conspiracy theory types predicted covid passports and people mocked them for it.

    Looks like they were right after all

    Lol.

    Not only that. Many people got outright banned from threads saying masks will be here for few years to come, that vaccines will not prevent infection or this vaccine passports thing coming.
    Mods were either banning people or sending them to conspiracy theory forum and now Angela Merkel says that EU leaders agree on proposal of introducing them.

    It is like with Epstein's pedo island which was conspiracy theory, until it wasn't.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,745 ✭✭✭✭ wes


    If other countries require a vaccine passport or a test to travel, then it doesn't matter a damn what people who are against them want. We are an island, we have to travel via boat or plane, and other countries will happily send people packing if they so choose.

    IMO, it would be foolish of us to not require a vaccine passport for those entering for maybe the next couple of years. It will be a while before the rest of the world gets vaccinated, so there will be some requirement for this yet. Some countries that we know have achieved herd immunity can be exempt of course.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    robinph wrote: »
    It's not something that the UK government wants to do, but if other governments require something then they will need to provide some mechanism or people won't be able to travel.

    I think it's the domestic vaccine passport the government has been hinting at that people are more against than the travel one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭ HansKroenke


    Calling it a vaccine passport is surely the wrong way to describe it; showing a negative test taken close to the date of flying or else showing some sort of previous infection evidence achieves the exact same outcome as a vaccine certificate.

    I'm still unsure as to the rationale for the certificate, given that it cannot be introduced while widespread vaccinations are not readily available as this would be too discriminatory but then once there is widespread vaccination of the public, why is covid an issue which requires some sort of certificate?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    patnor1011 wrote: »
    Lol.

    Not only that. Many people got outright banned from threads saying masks will be here for few years to come, that vaccines will not prevent infection or this vaccine passports thing coming.
    Mods were either banning people or sending them to conspiracy theory forum and now Angela Merkel says that EU leaders agree on proposal of introducing them.

    It is like with Epstein's pedo island which was conspiracy theory, until it wasn't.

    And Martin said a few months ago that people could (which means 'will') need a vaccine passport to go to a restaurant, pub, bar, concert etc. How fortunate that Health passport Ireland, which has since morphed into Health Passport Europe, popped up a few months ago: https://www.instagram.com/healthpassportireland/?hl=en


  • Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭ Ashbourne hoop


    is_that_so wrote: »
    The people who cannot get vaccinated is a very sizeable list, the first group alone is about 25% of our population.

    - Children
    - Pregnant women
    - those with previous allergic responses to vaccinations
    - immuno-compromised.

    Children will most likely be getting vaccinated in the forseeable future (not this summer though)as there are clinical trials underway for children

    Pregnant women can get the vaccine, even if they don't, they are not pregnant for ever.
    https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/the-covid19-vaccine-and-pregnancy-what-you-need-to-know

    Those who have had previous allergic reactions are not neccessarily exempt
    https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n120 and should talk to their GP

    The immuno compromised are similiar to people with previous reactions
    https://www.immunology.org/news/bsi-statement-covid-19-vaccines-for-patients-immunocompromised-immunosuppressed

    None of the groups you have listed should stop vaccine passports being introduced.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭ HansKroenke


    And Martin said a few months ago that people could (which means 'will') need a vaccine passport to go to a restaurant, pub, bar, concert etc. How fortunate that Health passport Ireland, which has since morphed into Health Passport Europe, popped up a few months ago: https://www.instagram.com/healthpassportireland/?hl=en

    Like a chameleon, Robert Quirke has changed the colours of Health Passport once again so it is now actually referred to as "Health Passport Worldwide".


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Like a chameleon, Robert Quirke has changed the colours of Health Passport once again so it is now actually referred to as "Health Passport Worldwide".

    He'll be able to supply the world with his social credit system, sorry, his health passport.

    But it's a conspiracy theory so nothing to worry about.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,613 Mod ✭✭✭✭ robinph


    wes wrote: »
    If other countries require a vaccine passport or a test to travel, then it doesn't matter a damn what people who are against them want. We are an island, we have to travel via boat or plane, and other countries will happily send people packing if they so choose.

    IMO, it would be foolish of us to not require a vaccine passport for those entering for maybe the next couple of years. It will be a while before the rest of the world gets vaccinated, so there will be some requirement for this yet. Some countries that we know have achieved herd immunity can be exempt of course.

    What purpose would it serve to require vaccines for visitors to your country? If your local population is vaccinated at 80%+ then it really doesn't matter a whole lot the vaccine status of the tourist. If the country they are coming from has high infection rates then either don't let them in, or get them to have tests before travelling and go into quarantine... Or if your local population is protected don't worry about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,140 ✭✭✭✭ is_that_so


    Children will most likely be getting vaccinated in the forseeable future (not this summer though)as there are clinical trials underway for children

    Pregnant women can get the vaccine, even if they don't, they are not pregnant for ever.
    https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/the-covid19-vaccine-and-pregnancy-what-you-need-to-know

    Those who have had previous allergic reactions are not neccessarily exempt
    https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n120 and should talk to their GP

    The immuno compromised are similiar to people with previous reactions
    https://www.immunology.org/news/bsi-statement-covid-19-vaccines-for-patients-immunocompromised-immunosuppressed

    None of the groups you have listed should stop vaccine passports being introduced.

    They are aimed at this summer and none of those will be vaccinated. We'll be lucky to have that 80% of adults, they've claimed, done by the end of summer. I see them as a quick fix approach for saving tourism in 2021 and proposed in February 2021, nothing more. I think they bring a lot more problems than they hope to solve and if as some suggest COVID turns into little more than a cold it's a fairly drastic solution. If they become an in-country form of access control, like Israel, they will lose any credibility. For now they are just a proposal under discussion. Even at EU levels there is not wholesale support for them and as you'd expect it's mainly the Mediterranean states who are very keen.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,536 ✭✭✭ Charles Babbage


    robinph wrote: »
    What purpose would it serve to require vaccines for visitors to your country? If your local population is vaccinated at 80%+ then it really doesn't matter a whole lot the vaccine status of the tourist. If the country they are coming from has high infection rates then either don't let them in, or get them to have tests before travelling and go into quarantine... Or if your local population is protected don't worry about it.


    Most people will be vaccinated here, but some will have problems for whatever reason and while the vaccine is 90% effective it is not totally effective. It is perfectly rational not to allow unvaccinated people visit.

    PCR tests and isolation may still have a role, but if a person from an infected country does get vaccinated why should that not be recognised? Or if an Irish person goes there?



    A vaccination passport linked to your real passport is a straightforward measure, there is no reason not to have it once vaccinations become available.


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