EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

biko · 01-03-2021 6:37pm

I assume that with each new mutation of the virus which may require a new shot you get a new stamp in the passport.

ginoginelli · 01-03-2021 6:41pm

Thornysheep wrote: »

It's not all about anti-vax.

It looks very much to be the majority of people who are opposed to it are anti vax, anti restrictions, anti mask etc, as well as the other usual contrarians.

Vaccine passports are a positive step in paving the way towards a return to normality in travel and toursim.

josip · 01-03-2021 6:44pm

Thornysheep wrote: »

And children?

And those waiting for a vaccine?
And those waiting for a booster?
I have a feeling that much of the support for a vaccine passport is based purely on animosity.

We'll be traveling in July, with children.
If we're not vaccinated in time, we'll still travel, we'll just all have to take PCR tests.
Even if the adults get vaccinated, the children will have to get PCR tests.
But that's ok, I don't think that's unreasonable the year we all exit a pandemic.
Those countries that reach herd immunity later this year/next year, especially tourist-oriented ones, will probably drop any vaccine passport requirements after this year.
So I see vaccine passports as a short term measure that reduces the financial travel burden on those who have been vaccinated.
By the time they are agreed/implemented/in use, I think all adults will have been offered a vaccine.

01-03-2021 6:46pm

ginoginelli wrote: »

It looks very much to be the majority of people who are opposed to it are anti vax, anti restrictions, anti mask etc, as well as the other usual contrarians.

Vaccine passports are a positive step in paving the way towards a return to normality in travel and toursim.

Vaccine passports are hugely discriminatory. Positively dystopian. Some people won’t be vaccinated until September, or later.

Charles Babbage · 01-03-2021 6:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Vaccine passports are hugely discriminatory. Positively dystopian. Some people won’t be vaccinated until September, or later.

Vaccines will be freely available to remaining persons in June or so. If you wish to travel then you'll have to go and go and get an appointment for one.

01-03-2021 6:49pm

josip wrote: »

We'll be traveling in July, with children.
If we're not vaccinated in time, we'll still travel, we'll just all have to take PCR tests.
Even if the adults get vaccinated, the children will have to get PCR tests.
But that's ok, I don't think that's unreasonable the year we all exit a pandemic.
Those countries that reach herd immunity later this year/next year, especially tourist-oriented ones, will probably drop any vaccine passport requirements after this year.
So I see vaccine passports as a short term measure that reduces the financial travel burden on those who have been vaccinated.
By the time they are agreed/implemented/in use, I think all adults will have been offered a vaccine.

PCR tests may not be enough to stop quarantine in other countries or on the way back. As the rules stand now people will be prohibited from travelling if a passport is introduced.

hmmm · 01-03-2021 6:50pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Vaccine passports are hugely discriminatory. Positively dystopian. Some people won’t be vaccinated until September, or later.

They are discriminatory but that doesn't bother me one bit.

I'm well down the list for getting a vaccination, but I'm not going to ask vaccinated people to remain locked up for a minute longer than necessary.

Neither am I going to ask businesses to remain closed who could open earlier. Let them open for vaccinated people.

Get on with it Minister & start re-opening the country if the opportunity presents.

01-03-2021 6:50pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Vaccines will be freely available to remaining persons in June or so. If you wish to travel then you'll have to go and go and get an appointment for one.

Yeh? I definitely intend to. You sure about that though? Also what’s the lottery winners on the last Friday in June. Euromillions.

01-03-2021 6:55pm

hmmm wrote: »

They are discriminatory but that doesn't bother me one bit.

I'm well down the list for getting a vaccination, but I'm not going to ask vaccinated people to remain locked up for a minute longer than necessary.

Neither am I going to ask businesses to remain closed who could open earlier. Let them open for vaccinated people.

Get on with it Minister & start re-opening the country if the opportunity presents.

Hmm. If the vaccine program stalls for whatever reason and half the country are locked down and the other half frolicking at indoor parties I feel it might cause some social tensions.

How are we going to open certain businesses and not others. Who is going to check who is vaccinated? Can we trust employers? Do we bring our vaccine cards to restaurants and pubs? What if the rumour spreads that insiders are getting vaccinated and eating at their fancy restaurants while the rest are kept indoors. Even if it were all squeaky clean there will be people at the back of the list. They won’t be happy.

We should open up in summer anyway. Like last year.

is_that_so · 01-03-2021 6:56pm

hmmm wrote: »

They are discriminatory but that doesn't bother me one bit.

I'm well down the list for getting a vaccination, but I'm not going to ask vaccinated people to remain locked up for a minute longer than necessary.

Neither am I going to ask businesses to remain closed who could open earlier. Let them open for vaccinated people.

Get on with it Minister & start re-opening the country if the opportunity presents.

It's extremely unlikely we'll see them here as a means of accessing services. That discriminatory element screams court cases and if the kids need to get a PCR test every time they want to go to McDonalds...

ShyMets · 01-03-2021 7:00pm

I might be slightly behind here. But is the suggestion that people will need a vaccine passport to go into a clothes shop or restaurant or Bar for example.

I understand that it will be needed to travel abroad but I've seen nothing from the Government to suggest one will be needed domestically

01-03-2021 7:02pm

ShyMets wrote: »

I might be slightly behind here. But is the suggestion that people will need a vaccine passport to go into a clothes shop or restaurant or Bar for example.

I understand that it will be needed to travel abroad but I've seen nothing from the Government to suggest one will be needed domestically

There’s no guarantee at all that any of this comes in. It was hmm who suggested that businesses open up with vaccinated workers.

Thornysheep · 01-03-2021 7:04pm

hmmm wrote: »

They are discriminatory but that doesn't bother me one bit.

I'm well down the list for getting a vaccination, but I'm not going to ask vaccinated people to remain locked up for a minute longer than necessary.

Neither am I going to ask businesses to remain closed who could open earlier. Let them open for vaccinated people.

Get on with it Minister & start re-opening the country if the opportunity presents.

It's very obvious that you are not bothered by discrimination.

is_that_so · 01-03-2021 7:04pm

ShyMets wrote: »

I might be slightly behind here. But is the suggestion that people will need a vaccine passport to go into a clothes shop or restaurant or Bar for example.

I understand that it will be needed to travel abroad but I've seen nothing from the Government to suggest one will be needed domestically

For now it's an EU proposal for travel this summer. People are extrapolating based on what they are doing in Israel.

ShyMets · 01-03-2021 7:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There’s no guarantee at all that any of this comes in. It was hmm who suggested that businesses open up with vaccinated workers.

Thanks. I agree with some of the above posts. Bringing one in domestically would be largely unworkable

Sensimellia · 01-03-2021 7:05pm

ginoginelli wrote: »

It looks very much to be the majority of people who are opposed to it are anti vax, anti restrictions, anti mask etc, as well as the other usual contrarians.

Vaccine passports are a positive step in paving the way towards a return to normality in travel and toursim.

Why is there no unthank option

josip · 01-03-2021 7:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Vaccine passports are hugely discriminatory. Positively dystopian. Some people won’t be vaccinated until September, or later.

I don't see them they are discriminatory.
Without them, everyone will be contributing to the profits of the Tory-backed PCR companies.
In case anyone wants to know the secret of getting a government awarded contract, then consider giving an MP £100,000 per year for 4 hours work a week.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/04/tory-linked-firm-involved-in-testing-failure-awarded-new-347m-covid-contract

At least with the vaccine passports, some people will avoid being shaken down when they travel.
I don't mind whether it's me or someone else that can avail of the passport, just as long as we're not lining the Tory coffers.

Hurrache · 01-03-2021 8:02pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Vaccine passports are hugely discriminatory. Positively dystopian. Some people won’t be vaccinated until September, or later.

Don't be ridiculous, it's a global pandemic and it's nonsense to suggest discrimination for the sake of discrimination.

JTMan · 01-03-2021 8:27pm

FT on the latest on EU digital vaccine passports here (paywall).

- Ursula von der Leyen, European Commission president, said on Monday the planned “Digital Green Pass” would provide proof of inoculation, test results of those not yet jabbed. "The Digital Green Pass should facilitate Europeans‘ lives." "Enable them to move safely in the European Union or abroad — for work or tourism".
- Greece strongly in favour to help revive the region’s devastated travel industry.
- Tui, Europe's largest tour operator, said “with a uniform EU certificate, politicians can now create an important basis for summer travel”.
- Plan to be unveiled later this month.

seansouth36 · 01-03-2021 8:42pm

Thornysheep wrote: »

Only if they are free I would imagine.

Luckily for them, no passport is needed to go to Courtown.

Jim2007 · 01-03-2021 8:57pm

is_that_so wrote: »

That discriminatory element screams court cases and if the kids need to get a PCR test every time they want to go to McDonalds...

Yep, about as discriminatory as say requiring people to have a driving license, care insurance etc. you know the kind of stuff that constitution and the EU treaties enable parliaments to legislate for...

bloopy · 01-03-2021 9:51pm

Thornysheep wrote: »

And children?

And those waiting for a vaccine?

And those waiting for a booster?

I have a feeling that much of the support for a vaccine passport is based purely on animosity.

Certainly looking that way.
Usually promoted by people who have quixotic ideas of how everyone but themselves are behaving badly.

speckle · 01-03-2021 10:00pm

And what about your wives, partners,sisters and daughters who are trying to get pregnant or are pregnant? They are advised to not take it.... has male dominated or auld wan politics forgotten them ...why should they be finicialy burdened more when travelling or have to endure quaranteening?

01-03-2021 10:07pm

josip wrote: »

I don't see them they are discriminatory.
Without them, everyone will be contributing to the profits of the Tory-backed PCR companies.
In case anyone wants to know the secret of getting a government awarded contract, then consider giving an MP £100,000 per year for 4 hours work a week.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/04/tory-linked-firm-involved-in-testing-failure-awarded-new-347m-covid-contract

At least with the vaccine passports, some people will avoid being shaken down when they travel.
I don't mind whether it's me or someone else that can avail of the passport, just as long as we're not lining the Tory coffers.

That’s makes no sense. People will have to get vaccinated, sometimes with Tory backed vaccinations.

And this is Ireland.

01-03-2021 10:08pm

A vaccine passport AKA a Herd number, because we're being treated like cattle not human being's.

01-03-2021 10:24pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Don't be ridiculous, it's a global pandemic and it's nonsense to suggest discrimination for the sake of discrimination.

That also makes no sense. The fact that it’s global means nothing to the argument. And I didn’t say it was “ discrimination for the sake of discrimination”. Whatever that is.

It does bring up a point though. Any such system where a passport is gained with a jab would have to be equitable - and this is one situation where I agree with equity of outcome - once the essential workers and old and vulnerable are vaccinated. Equal access for men and women, poor and rich, Dubliners and country folk, and across racial groups as well. Which is probably impossible.

There will be huge demand anyway, I bet systems will fall over and the faster internet connections will win out. There’s obviously going to be lots of queue jumping. The proposal is disastrous.

Ray Donovan · 01-03-2021 10:26pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That also makes no sense. The fact that it’s global means nothing to the argument. And I didn’t say it was “ discrimination for the sake of discrimination”. Whatever that is.

It does bring up a point though. Any such system where a passport is gained with a jab would have to be equitable - and this is one situation where I agree with equity of outcome - once the essential workers and old and vulnerable are vaccinated. Equal access for men and women, poor and rich, Dubliners and country folk, and across racial groups as well. Which is probably impossible.

There will be huge demand anyway, I bet systems will fall over and the faster internet connections will win out. There’s obviously going to be lots of queue jumping. The proposal is disastrous.

Did you read any news article??

UVL clearly states that if people haven’t beem vaccinated they can present a negative test to allow travel.

“The pass would allow a traveller to show either that they have been vaccinated, that they have tested negative for Covid-19 or that they have recovered from the disease.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/eu-to-develop-covid-19-vaccine-pass-amid-divisions-over-issue-1.4498393

01-03-2021 10:28pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

Yep, about as discriminatory as say requiring people to have a driving license, care insurance etc. you know the kind of stuff that constitution and the EU treaties enable parliaments to legislate for...

It’s nothing like that. It’s a (at best) lottery or at worst totally corrupt or biased system that will privilege certain groups and de-privilege others. I mean children won’t be vaccinated this summer so all travel is out except for the childless. If we “are all in it together” then keep the airports closed or allow a PCR test to fly even the vaccine is available.

Richard Hillman · 01-03-2021 10:51pm

Not a chance the French will allow this. The Germans are especially precious when it comes to privacy. They don't even tolerate CCTV.

And that's before we get to the Eastern block nations :pac:

Necro · 01-03-2021 10:52pm

tommybrees wrote: »

A vaccine passport AKA a Herd number, because we're being treated like cattle not human being's.

Mod:

Off you go now to the Conspiracy Theory Forum - don't post in this thread again

MrMusician18 · 01-03-2021 10:52pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Not a chance the French will allow this. The Germans are especially precious when it comes to privacy. They don't even tolerate CCTV.

And that's before we get to the Eastern block nations :pac:

Well colour me shocked with surprise at the line you've taken on this...

HansKroenke · 01-03-2021 11:03pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

Yep, about as discriminatory as say requiring people to have a driving license, care insurance etc. you know the kind of stuff that constitution and the EU treaties enable parliaments to legislate for...

Wow, the cognitive dissonance is strong in this one.

It is disturbing how extremist those views against doing completely normal activities without some sort of covid-specific (why just covid?) pass there are, really disturbing.

HansKroenke · 01-03-2021 11:06pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It’s nothing like that. It’s a (at best) lottery or at worst totally corrupt or biased system that will privilege certain groups and de-privilege others. I mean children won’t be vaccinated this summer so all travel is out except for the childless. If we “are all in it together” then keep the airports closed or allow a PCR test to fly even the vaccine is available.

That's a good point. Pregnant women / women who want to get pregnant won't be taking a vaccine anytime soon. Are they going to be told "tough luck"?

Economic and social restrictions disproportionately affect younger people, compared to the actual threat of covid to their health so it would be terribly unfair that those most affected by restrictions are farthest down the queue to receive a vaccine which is required in order to do the normal things like, for example, going abroad for a holiday.

01-03-2021 11:14pm

Necro wrote: »

Mod:

Off you go now to the Conspiracy Theory Forum - don't post in this thread again

Ya ya was told vaccine passports were conspiracy theory stuff last year and here we are now. When will ye learn

HansKroenke · 01-03-2021 11:16pm

josip wrote: »

The antivaxers can get PCR tests for travel, etc and everyone is still happy.

Antigen testing is going to be crucial also. One form of excellent immunity is previous infection.

Risteard81 · 02-03-2021 2:15am

is_that_so wrote: »

For now it's an EU proposal for travel this summer. People are extrapolating based on what they are doing in Israel.

Anyone in their right mind should completely and utterly condemn what they are proposing in Occupied Palestine.

And everyone in their right mind should completely and utterly condemn and oppose it here and in the so-called "EU".

So-called "vaccine passports" are yet more proof that we are in a totalitarian state.

Charles Babbage · 02-03-2021 2:23am

HansKroenke wrote: »

That's a good point. Pregnant women / women who want to get pregnant won't be taking a vaccine anytime soon. Are they going to be told "tough luck"?

Economic and social restrictions disproportionately affect younger people, compared to the actual threat of covid to their health so it would be terribly unfair that those most affected by restrictions are farthest down the queue to receive a vaccine which is required in order to do the normal things like, for example, going abroad for a holiday.

People should still be allowed take 2 Covid tests and isolate in between.

This is not going to start for a few months and by then everyone will be able to get vaccinated.

There is a great deal of bollix about this. Do people really prefer the way we are today?

patnor1011 · 02-03-2021 7:47am

Hurrache wrote: »

Can't be too poor if they plan on travelling abroad.

UK is "abroad". One does not need to be rich to go there.

HansKroenke · 02-03-2021 8:51am

Charles Babbage wrote: »

People should still be allowed take 2 Covid tests and isolate in between.

This is not going to start for a few months and by then everyone will be able to get vaccinated.

There is a great deal of bollix about this. Do people really prefer the way we are today?

It shouldn't be a choice of "well, it's what we have today or this". With over 60s and u60s with chronic conditions vaccinated, deaths and hospitalisations are down 98%. U45s suicide rates are three times higher than deaths from covid.

Introducing a brand new measure to further restrict an important aspect of normal life at this stage is just utterly pointless but quite disturbing that people think it would be acceptable.

costacorta · 02-03-2021 9:04am

josip wrote: »

Why should we subsidise antivaxers?

Sure the only place most of them travel is to local dole office or some anti government March . So they will stay at home anyway moaning about how the world is out to get you ...

is_that_so · 02-03-2021 9:31am

Charles Babbage wrote: »

People should still be allowed take 2 Covid tests and isolate in between.

This is not going to start for a few months and by then everyone will be able to get vaccinated.

There is a great deal of bollix about this. Do people really prefer the way we are today?

Varadkar mentioned rapid tests in a communication to the FG parliamentary party and there is a HPHET sub-group tasked with looking into their use. While there is still an issue over accuracy they could provide a far simpler approach.

is_that_so · 02-03-2021 9:35am

Jim2007 wrote: »

Yep, about as discriminatory as say requiring people to have a driving license, care insurance etc. you know the kind of stuff that constitution and the EU treaties enable parliaments to legislate for...

Kids can't drive nor get vaccinated nor get vaccine passports. The rest of this suggest a complete ignorance of what EU treaties actually allow and what an EU competency is.

gozunda · 02-03-2021 10:07am

HansKroenke wrote: »

That's a good point. Pregnant women / women who want to get pregnant won't be taking a vaccine anytime soon. Are they going to be told "tough luck"?

Economic and social restrictions disproportionately affect younger people, compared to the actual threat of covid to their health so it would be terribly unfair that those most affected by restrictions are farthest down the queue to receive a vaccine which is required in order to do the normal things like, for example, going abroad for a holiday.

God help us. Absolutely agree. Important things like going on holiday should absolutley get top priority when it comes to vaccination .

All those planning their holidays to Playa del Tonto or wherever - please proceed directly to the top of the queue.

Health care workers/ older people / vulnerable people of all ages - ye can just wait selfish people you!

>sarcasm font< :rolleyes:

02-03-2021 10:14am

Hurrache wrote: »

Can't be too poor if they plan on travelling abroad.

This is the opinion of someone who thinks that "poor" means you have to buy your takeaway coffee in the Spar instead of Starbucks.

I grew up (very) poor. I went on one holiday abroad before I was an adult. My mother scrimped and saved for a year to make it happen, and an additional fee for a medical test would have been a huge imposition.

So yeah, "the poors" can travel abroad on occasion, and yes, any additional fees would be a great hindrance to them.

02-03-2021 10:17am

josip wrote: »

Why wouldn't poor people be able to get vaccinated?

You misunderstand.

Poor people are able to get vaccinated. However, if they choose not to, and choosing not to costs money, they are put at an additional disadvantage. If €60 is your weekly coffee budget, a few tens of euros at holiday time is an additional cost that will be invisible to you. It's a different calculation altogether if €60 is your weekly grocery budget.

pueblo · 02-03-2021 10:33am

The Council of Europe's resolution 2361 titled 'Covid-19 vaccines: ethical, legal and practical considerations' clauses 7.3.1 and 7.3.2 are relevant here.

"7.3.1 ensure that citizens are informed that the vaccination is NOT mandatory and that no one is politically, socially, or otherwise pressured to get themselves vaccinated, if they do not wish to do so themselves;

7.3.2 ensure that no one is discriminated against for not having been vaccinated, due to possible health risks or not wanting to be vaccinated;"

https://pace.coe.int/en/files/29004/html

Russman · 02-03-2021 10:58am

pueblo wrote: »

The Council of Europe's resolution 2361 titled 'Covid-19 vaccines: ethical, legal and practical considerations' clauses 7.3.1 and 7.3.2 are relevant here.

"7.3.1 ensure that citizens are informed that the vaccination is NOT mandatory and that no one is politically, socially, or otherwise pressured to get themselves vaccinated, if they do not wish to do so themselves;

7.3.2 ensure that no one is discriminated against for not having been vaccinated, due to possible health risks or not wanting to be vaccinated;"

https://pace.coe.int/en/files/29004/html

I think 7.3.2 might turn out to be a pipe dream in reality (maybe not, who knows).
Plenty of countries have vaccine passports for other diseases. The idea that you have to have a vaccine passport to do something, but sure you can do it anyway, seems off the wall kinda stupid to me.
Personally I think if some people are inconvenienced by it, tough. With the caveats that prior infection, a negative test or inability to take a vaccine are exceptions. But someone just deciding they don't want a vaccine and expecting the same access to stuff as everyone else, no, I'm sorry. In the short term anyway. Purely IMO of course.

Charles Babbage · 02-03-2021 12:20pm

HansKroenke wrote: »

It shouldn't be a choice of "well, it's what we have today or this". With over 60s and u60s with chronic conditions vaccinated, deaths and hospitalisations are down 98%. U45s suicide rates are three times higher than deaths from covid.

Introducing a brand new measure to further restrict an important aspect of normal life at this stage is just utterly pointless but quite disturbing that people think it would be acceptable.

It isn't a "brand new measure", it is replacing the need for Covid tests and quarantines. It isn't a "brand new measure", there have been vaccination requirements for travel since the 19th century. It doesn't restrict normal life as responsible people will get vaccinated anyway.

is_that_so · 02-03-2021 12:31pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

It isn't a "brand new measure", it is replacing the need for Covid tests and quarantines. It isn't a "brand new measure", there have been vaccination requirements for travel since the 19th century. It doesn't restrict normal life as responsible people will get vaccinated anyway.

There are many unknowns with this use of vaccination passports, some countries are really just banking on it to get their tourism back up and running. There are also large holes in the blanket use of such passports and it's very much about summer in 2021 approach.

goingnowhere · 02-03-2021 12:34pm

As I posted yesterday if a reasonable alternative to vaccination is provided, e.g. free walk up PCR testing there is no discrimination.

The proposal is reasonable
1. If vaccinated off you go
2. If you have a recent test off you go
3. If you had a COVID positive test more than X day ago but less than Y days ago (14 days + 6months?)

Once we get to September anyone who wants a vaccine should be able to get one within days

Freedom of movement doesn't apply to holidays, its there to allow you to live or work in a EEA state, nothing in the current restrictions prevents you from doing so, travel for migration purposes is allowed as is legitimate work travel subject to local health controls which apply based on country of origin not nationality

EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

Comments