How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Fionn1952 · 20-02-2021 9:02pm

downcow wrote: »

Well here we go. Here’s the problem clear above.
The implication that most of the people shot by the security forces could have been apprehended instead.
If I am not mistaken, you are the very guy suggested it was a war that was happening in the north. But that aside, do you think it was wrong to shoot those attacking loughgal police station?

Yes here we go indeed, Downcow. You reading one thing, making up your own narrative and arguing with that instead of what was actually said. I did not make any quantified statement on what proportion of those killed could have been apprehended instead, so your claim that I implied, 'most' is entirely of your own making. My claim is that some certainly could've been apprehend, and it is widely suspected that this was an intentional policy decision.

I believe that whenever possible, people should be arrested and face trial rather than being shot on the street, regardless of their crime. I don't make any exceptions, regardless of how heinous the crime.

You think it is acceptable for police forces to act as judge, jury and executioner, I don't.

downcow · 20-02-2021 9:37pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Yes here we go indeed, Downcow. You reading one thing, making up your own narrative and arguing with that instead of what was actually said. I did not make any quantified statement on what proportion of those killed could have been apprehended instead, so your claim that I implied, 'most' is entirely of your own making. My claim is that some certainly could've been apprehend, and it is widely suspected that this was an intentional policy decision.

I believe that whenever possible, people should be arrested and face trial rather than being shot on the street, regardless of their crime. I don't make any exceptions, regardless of how heinous the crime.

You think it is acceptable for police forces to act as judge, jury and executioner, I don't.

I think when heavily armed terrorists head out to kill, the good guys should not take unacceptable risks with their own lives or let them escape to kill other innocent people. If possible they should arrest them, but preservation of innocent lives should be a higher priority

There is a lot of nonsense talked about shoot to kill eg loughgall heavily armed terrorists launched a nurderous attack but came of worst

Fionn1952 · 20-02-2021 10:06pm

downcow wrote: »

I think when heavily armed terrorists head out to kill, the good guys should not take unacceptable risks with their own lives or let them escape to kill other innocent people. If possible they should arrest them, but preservation of innocent lives should be a higher priority

There is a lot of nonsense talked about shoot to kill eg loughgall heavily armed terrorists launched a nurderous attack but came of worst

It is entirely unsurprising that you think it is nonsense, Downcow. You also think complaints about Bloody Sunday, Collusion and Internment are nonsense. Frankly, the British establishment can do no wrong in your eyes, so you'll engage in whatever mental gymnastics you can to justify anything.

downcow · 20-02-2021 10:44pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

It is entirely unsurprising that you think it is nonsense, Downcow. You also think complaints about Bloody Sunday, Collusion and Internment are nonsense. Frankly, the British establishment can do no wrong in your eyes, so you'll engage in whatever mental gymnastics you can to justify anything.

You need to turn it into black and white. It’s all you can work with.
I said a few posts ago that the security forces made mistakes and there were also a small number of renegade ones, but you want it to be either they were all perfect or they were all evil

Fionn1952 · 20-02-2021 11:37pm

downcow wrote: »

You need to turn it into black and white. It’s all you can work with.
I said a few posts ago that the security forces made mistakes and there were also a small number of renegade ones, but you want it to be either they were all perfect or they were all evil

Yeah, I have just spent the day arguing about shades of grey you know?

You say security forces made mistakes....that's exactly the kind of prevarication I'm referring to. The security forces were not all evil, but they were systemically flawed. I don't need to hold them all up as some sort of heroes or big bad villains; you want to desperately cling to the black and white, so the best you can do is to fall back on the ridiculous, 'a few bad eggs' lie. To do this while having the audacity to accuse me of black and white thinking is laughable.

The fact of the matter is that they were flawed to a point that necessitated dismantling.....but precisely as I pointed out, you're so caught up with your own cognitive bias that you'll do whatever you can to avoid acknowledging that the British state and British system did anything wrong.

Natterjack from Kerry · 21-02-2021 12:07am

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Yeah, I have just spent the day arguing about shades of grey you know?

You say security forces made mistakes....that's exactly the kind of prevarication I'm referring to. The security forces were not all evil, but they were systemically flawed. I don't need to hold them all up as some sort of heroes or big bad villains; you want to desperately cling to the black and white, so the best you can do is to fall back on the ridiculous, 'a few bad eggs' lie. To do this while having the audacity to accuse me of black and white thinking is laughable.

The fact of the matter is that they were flawed to a point that necessitated dismantling.....but precisely as I pointed out, you're so caught up with your own cognitive bias that you'll do whatever you can to avoid acknowledging that the British state and British system did anything wrong.

The security forces made mistakes. What service of government doesnt ? Education, health, social services, trasnport, you name it, they are subject to the flaws of the people who work in them. But there is nothing evil in them. They make a generally well intentioned effort to do their jobs, and but the failings are due to incompetence, lack of resources, motivation training etc. They do not set out to be wrong.
But the IRA/SF is evil, and set out to do bad. It mission was to kill and injur. A few saw the light and turned away from it entirely, to informing, or to dismantling it from within. But very few. Leaving the organisation predominantly an evil one. This is a sharp contrast to whatever was carried out by the state agencies.

Fionn1952 · 21-02-2021 12:47am

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

The security forces made mistakes. What service of government doesnt ? Education, health, social services, trasnport, you name it, they are subject to the flaws of the people who work in them. But there is nothing evil in them. They make a generally well intentioned effort to do their jobs, and but the failings are due to incompetence, lack of resources, motivation training etc. They do not set out to be wrong.
But the IRA/SF is evil, and set out to do bad. It mission was to kill and injur. A few saw the light and turned away from it entirely, to informing, or to dismantling it from within. But very few. Leaving the organisation predominantly an evil one. This is a sharp contrast to whatever was carried out by the state agencies.

The wrongdoings of the IRA are absolutely no justification for the wrongdoings of the British government.

You'd be the first in here crowing about whataboutery if someone was to try and use the actions of the British government to justify the actions of the IRA, so let's stay consistent. Did your mother never tell you two wrongs don't make a right?

While I have my suspicions about your Kerry roots, you don't have a clue about how NI was from a Nationalist perspective during that time. We can all agree that John Hume was an upstanding member of society, I suggest you read up on how he spoke of his own treatment growing up.

Junkyard Tom · 21-02-2021 12:59am

downcow wrote: »

You need to turn it into black and white. It’s all you can work with.
I said a few posts ago that the security forces made mistakes and there were also a small number of renegade ones, but you want it to be either they were all perfect or they were all evil

The Glennane Gang which included many members of the security forces did not 'make mistakes' they perpetrated over 120 murders of innocent people including killing an innocent Mother and Father in front of their toddlers.

Where were the RUC whistle-blowers? Everyone in the RUC knew they had killers in their ranks yet nobody stepped forward to expose them.

Why? Because the RUC was rotten to its core and was a blunt tool of the Unionist junta that should have been dismantled decades before the Provos ever gained traction. Far from keeping a lid on the Troubles the RUC were one of its main causes.

14 July 1969, McCloskey, Francis (67) Catholic. Status: Civilian, Killed by RUC.

17 July 1969, Devenny, Samuel (42) Catholic. Status: Civilian, Killed by RUC.

14 August 1969: Gallagher, John (30) Catholic. Status: Civilian, Killed by USC.

14 August 1969: Rooney, Patrick (9) Catholic. Status: Civilian, Killed by RUC.

5 August 1969 McLarnon, Samuel (27) Catholic. Status: Civilian, Killed by RUC.

15 August 1969 Lynch, Michael (28) Catholic. Status: Civilian, Killed by RUC.

01 December 1969 Corry, Patrick (61) Catholic. Status: Civilian, Killed by RUC.

downcow · 21-02-2021 8:38am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Stop answering questions with questions.

Just answer the question straight up. Your refusal to do so speaks volumes

What's stopping you attending your local MPs constituency office to make representations?

This might help to answer you question bonnie (and the several other posters on here who think it is fine behaviour by our local sf MP). Another attempt just begun this week to force our MP to be open to all.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/equality-commission-asked-to-probe-whether-mp-breached-legislation-by-naming-centre-after-terrorists-3140921%3famp

downcow · 21-02-2021 9:36am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Glennane Gang which included many members of the security forces did not 'make mistakes' they perpetrated over 120 murders of innocent people including killing an innocent Mother and Father in front of their toddlers.

Where were the RUC whistle-blowers? Everyone in the RUC knew they had killers in their ranks yet nobody stepped forward to expose them.

Why? Because the RUC was rotten to its core and was a blunt tool of the Unionist junta that should have been dismantled decades before the Provos ever gained traction. Far from keeping a lid on the Troubles the RUC were one of its main causes.

The glenanne gang is the one held up so often to try and paint the ruc and udr “rotten to the core” It clearly existed, was sectarian, totally wrong and should never have existed - a view held by any ex officer I know.
Let’s take a wee quick look at the facts
It existed over 40 years ago
It is claimed that it had up to 40 members of which up to 25 were members of the ruc or udr. (Let’s assume these stats are not exaggerated)
There were approx 100,000 serving ruc and udr during the troubles (o can’t get exact stats).
That is 0.025% of serving officers were involved with this notorious gang who murdered many.
Off the estimated 40 members of the gang 25 were convicted and 4 murdered and a few killed on active service. ie 62% were convicted
18 members of udr/ruc were convicted and a further 3 killed of the 25 estimated members An amazing conviction rate in ni troubles - doesn’t sound like their fellow officers were enamoured by them if they put them behind bars

Also, at this time the ruc was the most dangerous police force in the world to belong to.

So I stand by my claim that the ruc and udr were excellent professional security services, who made mistakes at times under extreme pressure and also had a very small number of renigade members - as had every profession or organisation at the time.
It would actually be rediculous to suggest that we should have expected there to be no Uvf men in the ruc. That would be like expecting there to be no ira in the gaa or no ira who were also priests.

People go at this the wrong way around. It was not ghat there were ruc in the Uvf It was that a small number of Uvf were in the ruc, and every other profession.

Junkyard Tom · 21-02-2021 10:51am

The Glennane Gang was the tip of the iceberg. Unionist paramilitaries did very little without the knowledge of their handlers.

I'm afraid the 'few bad apples' defence is insufficient, if an airline company had a 'few bad pilots' that caused a number of fatal crashes then the airline would be shut down in disgrace and executives would be jailed.

downcow · 21-02-2021 11:18am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Two things leap out: it isn't 'Mr Barnier's Protocol' it is everyone who signed it, Protocol.
And what 'stalemate with the EU'? There is no stalemate, the border is operating as is the Protocol.

Watch this space. There will be an interesting development around the protocol in the coming days.
....and it won’t be a guy with a paintbrush this time

RobMc59 · 21-02-2021 11:31am

Yes,after all the blustering and assurances brussels won't budge and remain resolute by our resident disgruntled republicans they're about to do exactly that.
The old saying 'they don't like it up 'em' springs to mind.

Fionn1952 · 21-02-2021 11:39am

downcow wrote: »

Watch this space. There will be an interesting development around the protocol in the coming days.
....and it won’t be a guy with a paintbrush this time

You promised us that two weeks ago, Downcow.

The reality is your wee petition will be acted on to the full extent required by UK law (they'll discuss whether to act on it).

Gove might make another great big demand to the EU, he might even stick a deadline on it, telling them they have a week to do something, get a few nice headlines about standing up to the Big Bad EU, and then they will have the agreement pointed out to them and a suggestion that they implement it correctly or the UK as a whole can take a step closer to EU alignment to allow for the easing of checks.

Or are you expecting some great big Rule Britannia moment?

I've laid out exactly what I expect to see happen, why are you always so vague when it comes to your predictions?

If you're so confident of some great big game changer, have the sack to actually say what it is you're predicting? I suspect you won't, as either you don't have the confidence that it will actually happen (and you will then jump on any old minor agreement between the UK and EU and claim that is what you're talking about) or even you don't believe it is anywhere near as grand as you're implying and you'll just ignore the subject when something insignificant doesn't happen.

RobMc59 wrote: »

Yes,after all the blustering and assurances brussels won't budge and remain resolute by our resident disgruntled republicans they're about to do exactly that.
The old saying 'they don't like it up 'em' springs to mind.

And sure just look who else pops along, contributes precisely nothing new except a wee pat on the back for his pal.....weren't you crowing just like this after Gove's big demand before slinking off and saying nothing about it when it went nowhere, precisely as predicted?

Kermit.de.frog · 21-02-2021 11:59am

I can't see the UK government ripping up their hard won trade agreement for minority opinion in NI.

I suspect they'll aim to streamline some processes and give short extensions to some grace periods.

A lot of the initial import problems due to lack of readiness from GB suppliers have been resolved already.

There are competitive advantages bestowed on the north through the protocol they are able to use.

I see the north's industrial development agency is already out there selling it

https://twitter.com/JP_Biz/status/1362068422264311809

FrancieBrady · 21-02-2021 12:03pm

downcow wrote: »

Watch this space. There will be an interesting development around the protocol in the coming days.
....and it won’t be a guy with a paintbrush this time

RobMc59 wrote: »

Yes,after all the blustering and assurances brussels won't budge and remain resolute by our resident disgruntled republicans they're about to do exactly that.
The old saying 'they don't like it up 'em' springs to mind.

Well I searched the wires and I don't see anything except Trimble's 'solution' in the IT.

Is that the 'development'?

Fionn1952 · 21-02-2021 12:05pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well I searched the wires and I don't see anything except Trimble's 'solution' in the IT.

Is that the 'development'?

Gotta keep it vague, Francie. If they keep away from specifics, they can just keep kicking the can down the road promising, 'any day now' until it is forgotten about.

FrancieBrady · 21-02-2021 12:09pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Gotta keep it vague, Francie. If they keep away from specifics, they can just keep kicking the can down the road promising, 'any day now' until it is forgotten about.

It has already been said that downcow and rob will claim any bone thrown as a huge victory...it has been the Brexiteers way since the start.

I have my popcorn read for the HoC debate.

downcow · 21-02-2021 1:01pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You promised us that two weeks ago, Downcow.

The reality is your wee petition will be acted on to the full extent required by UK law (they'll discuss whether to act on it).

Gove might make another great big demand to the EU, he might even stick a deadline on it, telling them they have a week to do something, get a few nice headlines about standing up to the Big Bad EU, and then they will have the agreement pointed out to them and a suggestion that they implement it correctly or the UK as a whole can take a step closer to EU alignment to allow for the easing of checks.

Or are you expecting some great big Rule Britannia moment?

I've laid out exactly what I expect to see happen, why are you always so vague when it comes to your predictions?

If you're so confident of some great big game changer, have the sack to actually say what it is you're predicting? I suspect you won't, as either you don't have the confidence that it will actually happen (and you will then jump on any old minor agreement between the UK and EU and claim that is what you're talking about) or even you don't believe it is anywhere near as grand as you're implying and you'll just ignore the subject when something insignificant doesn't happen.

And sure just look who else pops along, contributes precisely nothing new except a wee pat on the back for his pal.....weren't you crowing just like this after Gove's big demand before slinking off and saying nothing about it when it went nowhere, precisely as predicted?

This is why I don’t Fionn. I promised nothing two weeks ago. I simply posted a link to the petition which had the clear objective of reaching the required 100,000. It done that in a remarkable 24hrs. I expect it to achieve nothing except keep the issue in the agenda.
I think unionists are learning from shinners ie just keep crying victim.

The developments I refer to coming up may also achieve nothing or it could be a gamechanger. As people on here say about a referendum, we only need to get lucky once.

I am not being more explicit as I think those involved should announce it, but it will be fronted by cross party MPs on that big island where you say no one cares.

And let me emphasise again so as you don’t misinterpret it, it my achieve nothing. It may end up another lost battle, but what is key is who wins the war.

downcow · 21-02-2021 1:05pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I can't see the UK government ripping up their hard won trade agreement for minority opinion in NI.

I suspect they'll aim to streamline some processes and give short extensions to some grace periods.

A lot of the initial import problems due to lack of readiness from GB suppliers have been resolved already.

There are competitive advantages bestowed on the north through the protocol they are able to use.

I see the north's industrial development agency is already out there selling it

https://twitter.com/JP_Biz/status/1362068422264311809

Yes we do have the best of both worlds now. We just need to sort out the sovereignty issues and the Irish Sea border issues.
I see KPMG have set up a new base in ni. They say they explored Roi and gb and have settled on ni. They also point out that they see ni in a preferential place going forward.

It’s good but it can get better

. UI is disappearing for generations

downcow · 21-02-2021 1:06pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well I searched the wires and I don't see anything except Trimble's 'solution' in the IT.

Is that the 'development'?

I haven’t seen Trimble’s solution, but fair play to him if he is plugging away

Kermit.de.frog · 21-02-2021 1:13pm

downcow wrote: »

Yes we do have the best of both worlds now. We just need to sort out the sovereignty issues and the Irish Sea border issues.
I see KPMG have set up a new base in ni. They say they explored Roi and gb and have settled on ni. They also point out that they see ni in a preferential place going forward.

It’s good but it can get better . UI is disappearing for generations

What you are saying makes zero sense.

You acknowledge the good place the north is in but then say you don't want the arrangements.

There is nothing else on offer or possible to keep the benefits you say you have.

The single market requires checks on goods from 3rd countries. No wishful thinking changes that.

downcow · 21-02-2021 1:36pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Glennane Gang was the tip of the iceberg. Unionist paramilitaries did very little without the knowledge of their handlers.

I'm afraid the 'few bad apples' defence is insufficient, if an airline company had a 'few bad pilots' that caused a number of fatal crashes then the airline would be shut down in disgrace and executives would be jailed.

https://youtu.be/AEQ9g7MvaIM

downcow · 21-02-2021 1:56pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Yes here we go indeed, Downcow. You reading one thing, making up your own narrative and arguing with that instead of what was actually said. I did not make any quantified statement on what proportion of those killed could have been apprehended instead, so your claim that I implied, 'most' is entirely of your own making. My claim is that some certainly could've been apprehend, and it is widely suspected that this was an intentional policy decision.

I believe that whenever possible, people should be arrested and face trial rather than being shot on the street, regardless of their crime. I don't make any exceptions, regardless of how heinous the crime.

You think it is acceptable for police forces to act as judge, jury and executioner, I don't.

Every day in ni is an aniversaru of terrorists killing some good person. Here is just one of today’s anniversaries. This is the type of person who was murdered often and regarded as not as bad a crime as he occasionally wore a uniform to help his community https://twitter.com/OnThisDayPIRA/status/1363386724370497537?s=20

downcow · 21-02-2021 1:58pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What you are saying makes zero sense.

You acknowledge the good place the north is in but then say you don't want the arrangements.

There is nothing else on offer or possible to keep the benefits you say you have.

The single market requires checks on goods from 3rd countries. No wishful thinking changes that.

What does 3rd country mean?

Fionn1952 · 21-02-2021 2:12pm

downcow wrote: »

This is why I don’t Fionn. I promised nothing two weeks ago. I simply posted a link to the petition which had the clear objective of reaching the required 100,000. It done that in a remarkable 24hrs. I expect it to achieve nothing except keep the issue in the agenda.
I think unionists are learning from shinners ie just keep crying victim.

The developments I refer to coming up may also achieve nothing or it could be a gamechanger. As people on here say about a referendum, we only need to get lucky once.

I am not being more explicit as I think those involved should announce it, but it will be fronted by cross party MPs on that big island where you say no one cares.

And let me emphasise again so as you don’t misinterpret it, it my achieve nothing. It may end up another lost battle, but what is key is who wins the war.

You promised nothing, Downcow?!

If I pick some numbers on the lotto, they may come to nothing or they may be a gamechanger, probably the former.

Why do I suspect your, 'cross party' fronting will include a few familiar names like Kate Hoey?

Also, I've never stated that no one in the UK cares about NI, nor do I believe that has been stated by anyone. I think it has repeatedly been demonstrated with statistics that most people in Britain don't really care about NI, and that most would be happier to lose NI than to experience problems related to Brexit, but I have never claimed that no one cares; I've met enough who do.

Anyway back to the original point....you promised nothing...see below for a series of statements on what WILL happen, not what might happen or what you'd hope for. Definitive statements on what WILL happen. Only one of the below quotes suggests anything but absolute certainty.

downcow wrote: »

But many of them are typically Eu ie no sense and no benefit to anyone They will go.

downcow wrote: »

Have you any idea how many laughable rediculous rules are in place because of protocol. Those rules need to go, and will go. Then we’ll be in a good place

downcow wrote: »

The point you are missing is that the Eu is soon going to ease 90% of the issues ni is facing about free movement. And when that happens we will be in the most beneficial place in Eu.
I would like to get you the quote from tv this morning (I might try) but O’Neill shocked me by saying something along these lines.
Onwards and upwards

downcow wrote: »

It is very clear that the last week has prepared the ground for significant movement and I think it will be to everyone’s benefit that some common sense will be applied and hopefully extended to Dover Calais crossings

Fionn1952 · 21-02-2021 2:13pm

downcow wrote: »

Every day in ni is an aniversaru of terrorists killing some good person. Here is just one of today’s anniversaries. This is the type of person who was murdered often and regarded as not as bad a crime as he occasionally wore a uniform to help his community https://twitter.com/OnThisDayPIRA/status/1363386724370497537?s=20

While certainly sad, it has absolutely no relevance to the post you replied to regarding Shoot to Kill policy.

downcow wrote: »

What does 3rd country mean?

A quick Google would've answered that for you. A third country is any country not part of the EU, single market or Customs Union.

lurleen lumpkin · 21-02-2021 2:28pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

While certainly sad, it has absolutely no relevance to the post you replied to regarding Shoot to Kill policy.

Standard daily fare from the troll. They probably consult that 'OnthisdaytheIRA' twitter page or similar when they need to pivot a discussion or substantiate some whataboutery.

Downcow in this thread is like our own little advent calendar of antagonistic unionism.

Fionn1952 · 21-02-2021 2:31pm

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

Standard daily fare from the troll. They probably consult that 'OnthisdaytheIRA' twitter page or similar when they need to pivot a discussion or substantiate some whataboutery.

Downcow in this thread is like our own little advent calendar of antagonistic unionism.

The Tweet he posted is directly from that page.

downcow · 21-02-2021 3:07pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You promised nothing, Downcow?!

If I pick some numbers on the lotto, they may come to nothing or they may be a gamechanger, probably the former.

Why do I suspect your, 'cross party' fronting will include a few familiar names like Kate Hoey?

Also, I've never stated that no one in the UK cares about NI, nor do I believe that has been stated by anyone. I think it has repeatedly been demonstrated with statistics that most people in Britain don't really care about NI, and that most would be happier to lose NI than to experience problems related to Brexit, but I have never claimed that no one cares; I've met enough who do.

Anyway back to the original point....you promised nothing...see below for a series of statements on what WILL happen, not what might happen or what you'd hope for. Definitive statements on what WILL happen. Only one of the below quotes suggests anything but absolute certainty.

Stand by 100% every statement above. I am very confident they will all happen. You introduce the short timeframe to spice it up. Changes are happening and will continue to happen, but you will have to sit on your enthusiasm for a wee while

How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

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