General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

02-01-2021 05:57PM

adaminho wrote: »

Joint second highest scorers in the league are anti football!

You have to laugh. Bielsa regularly cited as one of the great coaches, he has taken midtable Championship players and transformed them, pundits and analysts praising the phenomenal football, the stats for possession and passing are off the charts.

A few months into their return to the top flight, during which time they have yet to play their first choice centre halves together, are now missing their 3rd choice too, and are playing people out of position to cover...and you get Irish football fans obviously completely unaware of the injuries comparing him to Ian Holloway and saying its anti-football!

02-01-2021 06:01PM

First time I've ever read this Leeds team is anti football. It's not a common held view I'd imagine..

~Rebel~ · 02-01-2021 06:02PM

DeanAustin wrote: »

Klopp changed his style a bit from the earlier seasons so it was more than just personnel that made the difference and, even at their most naive, they were never as naive as Leeds are being. I'd also say the goalkeeper was almost as big a signing as VVD was.

You're talking about the following year. VVD joined mid season in 17/18, and the defence improved instantly. They didn't begin to change the system until the following season when Alisson was also brought in - so the defensive improvement in 17/18 happened with VVD being the only variable.

The standard Liverpool set last year was abnormal. So you could call it a downward trend from there but if anyone expected them to maintain that level, they'd be nuts because it's unrealistic. On the other hand, I'd expect Leeds to be some way competitive against the top sides. That's realistic if they don't approach games playing kamikaze football.

There are also some strange circumstances for Liverpool to contend with this year between the covid situation and the amount of games they are playing.

Sort of irrelevant. The other chap said VVD and Gomez and Matip's injuries are part of Liverpool's downward trend. You first argued there was no downward trend. Now you acknowledge above that in fact there was, but say it's to be expected. These are different points.

The fact remains, Liverpool set one standard over 2 consecutive seasons with first choice members of their defence reasonably consistently available, and this season that standard has dropped very significantly with all of these players out. To deny the correlation and at least partial causation seems a bit mad.

Shanotheslayer · 02-01-2021 06:04PM

6 wrote: »

First time I've ever read this Leeds team is anti football. It's not a common held view I'd imagine..

I think the poster just phrased it wrong. I think he meant to say it's just one dimensional similar to teams who only ever sit back and park the bus. They're just on the opposite side

Whatsisname · 02-01-2021 06:09PM

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Was watching the Spurs/Leeds game on BT earlier.....

Commentary was hilarious TBH. Liturally creaming themselves throughout on how good Leeds were, Bielsa, wonderful to watch..... and then 3 - 0 down.

Now I don't have an axe to grind with either Leeds or Bielsa, but talk about ridiculous..... baring no reflection on what was happening in front of them at all.

It was the same when United played them. There was no praise given to United for tearing Leeds apart, it was all about how good Leeds were and how great they are to watch. We could have genuinely scored about 12 goals that day, I’ve never seen a team play so naively against United at OT, concede 6 and be praised for it. It’s weird.

adaminho · 02-01-2021 06:13PM

Whatsisname wrote: »

It was the same when United played them. There was no praise given to United for tearing Leeds apart, it was all about how good Leeds were and how great they are to watch. We could have genuinely scored about 12 goals that day, I’ve never seen a team play so naively against United at OT, concede 6 and be praised for it. It’s weird.

You obviously didn't watch the Utd Spurs game at Old Trafford then

DeanAustin · 02-01-2021 06:17PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

You're talking about the following year. VVD joined mid season in 17/18, and the defence improved instantly. They didn't begin to change the system until the following season when Alisson was also brought in - so the defensive improvement in 17/18 happened with VVD being the only variable.

It wasn't that much of an improvement to be fair. In the league, they conceded 25 in 22 before he came and 13 in 16 after he arrived. And the 25 included a game at City where they were down to 10 very early on and conceded 5. They also still managed to concede 6 to Roma in the semi finals of the CL too so they were far from much improved with just the addition of VVD.

The following season they conceded 22 in 38 which was when the real improvement came defensively.

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Sort of irrelevant. The other chap said VVD and Gomez and Matip's injuries are part of Liverpool's downward trend. You first argued there was no downward trend. Now you acknowledge above that in fact there was, but say it's to be expected. These are different points.

The fact remains, Liverpool set one standard over 2 consecutive seasons with first choice members of their defence reasonably consistently available, and this season that standard has dropped very significantly with all of these players out. To deny the correlation and at least partial causation seems a bit mad.

I think equating Leeds' downward trend of results against top sides with Liverpool's downward trend, as Conor tried to do, is complete nonsense. Liverpool were never going to dominate like they did last season. It isn't realistic. Leeds can be competitive against top sides and they've become much less competitive because of their style.

It's also worth noting that Koch and Cooper, 2 of the 3, played together against Leicester and Chelsea and Cooper played against United. The third one injured, Llorente, has only made one sub appearance so hard to judge how important he is. Point being, even when Leeds have first choice defenders against top teams, they're still leaking goals.

I'm a Spurs fan. Bielsa made it easy today because Spurs struggle badly with teams who are more solid defensively. Play a high line, man for man and throw men forward and a Mourinho team will murder you.

Agent Coulson · 02-01-2021 06:19PM

Brighton might only survive because there are three worse teams they defiantly haven't improved under Potter.

adaminho · 02-01-2021 06:32PM

DeanAustin wrote: »

It's also worth noting that Koch and Cooper, 2 of the 3, played together against Leicester and Chelsea and Cooper played against United. The third one injured, Llorente, has only made one sub appearance so hard to judge how important he is. Point being, even when Leeds have first choice defenders against top teams, they're still leaking goals.

I'm a Spurs fan. Bielsa made it easy today because Spurs struggle badly with teams who are more solid defensively. Play a high line, man for man and throw men forward and a Mourinho team will murder you.

Koch was carrying an Injury from his first game. The Spurs forum was full of fans today thinking they'd lose because Mourinho couldn't adapt his team!

TitianGerm · 02-01-2021 06:33PM

adaminho wrote: »

You obviously didn't watch the Utd Spurs game at Old Trafford then

I don't think United were praised for being hammered though.

DeanAustin · 02-01-2021 06:34PM

adaminho wrote: »

Koch was carrying an Injury from his first game. The Spurs forum was full of fans today thinking they'd lose because Mourinho couldn't adapt his team!

I still worry about Mourinho being able to adapt. He didn’t have to today.

davycc · 02-01-2021 06:37PM

Come back by Brighton brain dead by mouthunio .. great for neutral come on you Brighton z

~Rebel~ · 02-01-2021 06:44PM

DeanAustin wrote: »

It wasn't that much of an improvement to be fair. In the league, they conceded 25 in 22 before he came and 13 in 16 after he arrived. And the 25 included a game at City where they were down to 10 very early on and conceded 5. They also still managed to concede 6 to Roma in the semi finals of the CL too so they were far from much improved with just the addition of VVD.

The following season they conceded 22 in 38 which was when the real improvement came defensively.

Having lived through it and watched every minute of every game before and and after VVD came that season, I can assure you the difference was very very very noticeable. Here's an article from that time period - April 2018 - you can peruse;
https://www.thisisanfield.com/2018/04/clean-sheets-problem-positions-the-critical-piece-of-the-puzzle-liverpools-all-important-defensive-improvement/

As a little snippet on VVD;
"Liverpool’s end to the season has been marked not only by a stunning front line, but also by a huge upturn in fortunes in defence.

On the evidence of the first two-and-a-half months at the club, he’s worth every penny of the £75 million fee paid for him."

And so we don't get lost in the weeds - I'll reiterate that this subject has come up because you stated it was the style of play that was the problem with Leeds, and that a change to their first choice defence (the international defenders they brought in because it was clear the existing ones weren't good enough for the Premier League) would not improve things.

I pointed out that this was the same argument used against Liverpool, which was very publicly and widely recognised to have been a false argument only a few months later with just a single change to the back line.

I think equating Leeds' downward trend of results against top sides with Liverpool's downward trend, as Conor tried to do, is complete nonsense. Liverpool were never going to dominate like they did last season. It isn't realistic. Leeds can be competitive against top sides and they've become much less competitive because of their style.

You speak like its binary - on or off. That's not how football - or life - works. It's a totally fair point that Liverpool's form would dip after last seasons highs regardless. It's also an entirely and totally fair point that losing all of their senior centrebacks has been a major contributing factor. It's frankly weird to suggest otherwise.

It's also worth noting that Koch and Cooper, 2 of the 3, played together against Leicester and Chelsea and Cooper played against United. The third one injured, Llorente, has only made one sub appearance so hard to judge how important he is. Point being, even when Leeds have first choice defenders against top teams, they're still leaking goals.

I'm a Spurs fan. Bielsa made it easy today because Spurs struggle badly with teams who are more solid defensively. Play a high line, man for man and throw men forward and a Mourinho team will murder you.

I agree that they will struggle against better, far more expensively assembled teams that are especially excellent on the counter attack. (The expectations for all promoted sides against all of these teams is that they will lose). And I agree that even with their first choice defenders, their open style of play will leave them susceptible. The point being made is that with better defenders bedded in over time the potential for damage goes down. Seems a reasonably fair and unsurprising point to me...

So perhaps, as said, it's not a bad idea to actually wait and see to get a clearer picture of how a full strength Leeds side manages against a counter-attacking team.

DeanAustin · 02-01-2021 06:53PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Having lived through it and watched every minute of every game before and and after VVD came that season, I can assure you the difference was very very very noticeable. Here's an article from that time period - April 2018 - you can peruse;
https://www.thisisanfield.com/2018/04/clean-sheets-problem-positions-the-critical-piece-of-the-puzzle-liverpools-all-important-defensive-improvement/

As a little snippet on VVD;
"Liverpool’s end to the season has been marked not only by a stunning front line, but also by a huge upturn in fortunes in defence.

On the evidence of the first two-and-a-half months at the club, he’s worth every penny of the £75 million fee paid for him."

And so we don't get lost in the weeds - I'll reiterate that this subject has come up because you stated it was the style of play that was the problem with Leeds, and that a change to their first choice defence (the international defenders they brought in because it was clear the existing ones weren't good enough for the Premier League) would not improve things.

I pointed out that this was the same argument used against Liverpool, which was very publicly and widely recognised to have been a false argument only a few months later with just a single change to the back line.

You speak like its binary - on or off. That's not how football - or life - works. It's a totally fair point that Liverpool's form would dip after last seasons highs regardless. It's also an entirely and totally fair point that losing all of their senior centrebacks has been a major contributing factor. It's frankly weird to suggest otherwise.

I agree that they will struggle against better, far more expensively assembled teams that are especially excellent on the counter attack. (The expectations for all promoted sides against all of these teams is that they will lose). And I agree that even with their first choice defenders, their open style of play will leave them susceptible. The point being made is that with better defenders bedded in over time the potential for damage goes down. Seems a reasonably fair and unsurprising point to me...

So perhaps, as said, it's not a bad idea to actually wait and see to get a clearer picture of how a full strength Leeds side manages against a counter-attacking team.

I’m not saying that VVD didn’t improve Liverpool. I’m saying it wasn’t a massive improvement when he came in. The facts support that.

So we don’t get lost in the weeds I never said a change in defenders wouldn’t help. Better players improve things. I said no matter who is there, against better sides, they’ll concede goals and get beat because of how they play.

The facts back that up. Koch and Cooper played against Chelsea and Leicester and they conceded 3 and 4. Koch played against Liverpool and they conceded 4. Cooper played against United and they conceded 6.

davycc · 02-01-2021 07:02PM

Good man captain dunk cracking header 3all back in the AMEX

02-01-2021 07:07PM

DeanAustin wrote: »

I said no matter who is there, against better sides, they’ll concede goals and get beat because of how they play...

You mean sides that have spent decades in the top flight and have squads that often cost hundreds of millions to assemble over years will usually beat newly promoted sides missing 1, 2 and (during the recent "trend") 3 international centre halves?

Well we can agree on that much...

Esse85 · 02-01-2021 07:31PM

Great chance for Wolves to have won that with the last header of the match, good work by Traore to put it on a plate.

TheadoreT · 02-01-2021 07:35PM

Can Arsenal do it on a cold snowy night in Birmingham. They're probably the softest team in world football so it's as good a chance as any for this poor West Brom outfit to pick up some much needed points.

adaminho · 02-01-2021 07:43PM

DeanAustin wrote: »

Koch played against Liverpool and they conceded 4. Cooper played against United and they conceded 6.

It was Koch's first game in the league after two days training, got injured and was playing with a 20yr old partner. Spurs fans lose their Sh*t if they see Aurier and Sanchez in the same team! Maybe let us put out a full team and then judge us? Spurs were well worth their win today but it's our first time back in the PL in 16 yrs,give us a chance.

DeanAustin · 02-01-2021 07:55PM

adaminho wrote: »

It was Koch's first game in the league after two days training, got injured and was playing with a 20yr old partner. Spurs fans lose their Sh*t if they see Aurier and Sanchez in the same team! Maybe let us put out a full team and then judge us? Spurs were well worth their win today but it's our first time back in the PL in 16 yrs,give us a chance.

Don’t get me wrong, I think Leeds are a breath of fresh air and enjoy watching them. My only point about them is that they way they play is naive and top teams will beat them handily and they’ll ship goals in those games.

The risk, and another poster has alluded to it, is that other teams start to have joy against them because there is no plan B. I saw that happen with Ossie Ardiles’ Spurs sides. However, I think Bielsa has been around long enough and his teams have shown enough that they won’t suffer a similar fate against weaker teams.

I’m not anti-Leeds. Honestly. I was just shocked at how they approached today.

The White Feather · 02-01-2021 07:59PM

Sack Arteta!! :pac:

Maybe if they lose here?!!

~Rebel~ · 02-01-2021 08:02PM

DeanAustin wrote: »

I’m not saying that VVD didn’t improve Liverpool. I’m saying it wasn’t a massive improvement when he came in. The facts support that.

Just on Van Djik, your stats above weren't entirely accurate - they related to games played after he arrived at the club, but not games he actually played in.

Liverpool conceded 1.16 goals per league game without him. They conceded .71 goals per game with him. That's a fairly massive instant improvement imo, and why that article I posted from the time was so effusive on how much he had added.

Big draw for Brighton, keeps them just out of Fulham's reach for the week. Fulham's 2 games in hand means they're gonna end up with a crazy congested schedule at a time where they're really scrapping for points. Circumstances really going against them despite their much improved play over the past few weeks.

Wolves will have to be gutted with that, had the game won and contrived to throw it away. Really missing the focal point of Jimenez. Is there any word at all on how long Jimenez will actually be out? I just looked back and was surprised to see that Cech only missed 3 months with his skull fracture - it happened in mid October, and he was back in January. Had figured Raul would be out for the year, but going by Cechs recovery - which by all accounts was worse - he could well be back for the last few months of the season.

RasTa · 02-01-2021 08:20PM

How does Steve Mcmanaman get paid to commentate on football?

The White Feather · 02-01-2021 08:24PM

Great strike from Tierney

The White Feather · 02-01-2021 08:25PM

RasTa wrote: »

How does Steve Mcmanaman get paid to commentate on football?

I think all the Liverpool accents are awful on commentary. Him and Carragher for example

The White Feather · 02-01-2021 08:29PM

Another nice goal there for Arsenal

ShamoBuc · 02-01-2021 08:29PM

Great football for their second, could get messy, hopefully for Sam.

The White Feather · 02-01-2021 08:33PM

Abandon the game for Sam. Too much snow!

ongarite · 02-01-2021 09:20PM

Nearly another worldie own goal from West Brom

tayto lover · 02-01-2021 09:21PM

TheadoreT wrote: »

Can Arsenal do it on a cold snowy night in Birmingham. They're probably the softest team in world football so it's as good a chance as any for this poor West Brom outfit to pick up some much needed points.

You’re a great judge of football.😂😂

General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

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