Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - Read OP for Mod Warnings

ranto_boy · 28-09-2020 03:18PM

Deleted User wrote: »

- if two people per day were dying in any other aspect of society, there'd be uproar (and rightly so.....for reference, the highest number of road fatalities in the history of the state was 640 in 1972)

In 2014, averaged out, we had 9.2 people a day dying from "Diseases of the
Respiratory system".

I don't recall hearing a peep on it.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-1916/1916irl/bmd/deaths/

bucketybuck · 28-09-2020 03:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Couple of points on this:

- "only" 700 is two people per day, every day of the week for a year (with only one on Sundays)
- if two people per day were dying in any other aspect of society, there'd be uproar (and rightly so.....for reference, the highest number of road fatalities in the history of the state was 640 in 1972)

If only two people were dying every day we should be delighted, because the daily death rate is quite a bit higher than that.

Over 32,000 people died in Ireland in 2018 for example, an average of 87 per day. I don't have the figures for 2019 but the years from 2015 up until 2018 were similar, all 30k+.

Add in the age profile of those 700 and I'm sorry, but those 2 a day wouldn't even raise comment if we weren't already on the look out for them, they would just be another 2 out of dozens.

FintanMcluskey · 28-09-2020 03:33PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

If only two people were dying every day we should be delighted, because the daily death rate is quite a bit higher than that.

Over 32,000 people died in Ireland in 2018 for example, an average of 87 per day. I don't have the figures for 2019 but the years from 2015 up until 2018 were similar, all 30k+.

Add in the age profile of those 700 and I'm sorry, but those 2 a day wouldn't even raise comment if we weren't already on the look out for them, they would just be another 2 out of dozens.

Bottom line is, if we weren't informed about Covid, no one would know it exists outside of doctor's and those informed about respitory illnesses.

People died at the same rate before Covid and will continue to die at the same rate after a vaccine is produced

topper75 · 28-09-2020 03:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

There is an even bigger number where it could have been worse. It's not that long ago we were looking at 14-15 pages of death notices in Italian newspapers, lets not forget.

The country comparisons on here are rather inconsistent.

We can't be like Sweden - because they are naturally compliant with government wishes in the way Ireland are not apparently.

But we could be like Italy* (thanks for saving us NPHET!).

*Doesn't pay a blind bit of notice to their utterly different demographic profile where 1 in 4 of all Italian citizens was over 65 at the start of the year.

28-09-2020 04:00PM

ranto_boy wrote: »

In 2014, averaged out, we had 9.2 people a day dying from "Diseases of the
Respiratory system".

I don't recall hearing a peep on it.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-1916/1916irl/bmd/deaths/

Really? You didn't hear a peep or read anything about lung cancer, asthma, and cyctic fibrosis in Ireland during that year? I think you're being economical with the truth.

Also, for the record, you're not comparing like with like. There are more than 10 diseases of the respiratory system. COVID is a lone beast. If you examine the biggest of all those diseases, Lung Cancer, there were just under 1,900 deaths in the three years 2014-2016, or about 630 per year (source - page 13). Now, imagine if lung cancer was contagious and you were able to catch it from smokers?

FintanMcluskey · 28-09-2020 04:05PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? You didn't hear a peep or read anything about lung cancer, asthma, and cyctic fibrosis in Ireland during that year? I think you're being economical with the truth.

Also, for the record, you're not comparing like with like. There are more than 10 diseases of the respiratory system. COVID is a lone beast.

As regards Covid being a lone beast.

All nursing home deaths were tested for Covid.

Are all nursing home deaths tested for influenza?

hayoc · 28-09-2020 04:07PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

As regards Covid being a lone beast.

All nursing home deaths were tested for Covid.

Are all nursing home deaths tested for influenza?

I presume nursing home deaths are signed off by a doctor with a cause of death recorded?

28-09-2020 04:16PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

If only two people were dying every day we should be delighted, because the daily death rate is quite a bit higher than that.

Over 32,000 people died in Ireland in 2018 for example, an average of 87 per day. I don't have the figures for 2019 but the years from 2015 up until 2018 were similar, all 30k+.

Add in the age profile of those 700 and I'm sorry, but those 2 a day wouldn't even raise comment if we weren't already on the look out for them, they would just be another 2 out of dozens.

Yes......the daily death rate of ALL deaths is higher.......imagine that?

Go back and read my post again. I said if two died from any single aspect of society. Imagine two taxi drivers were killed every day from something that was as easily preventable as washing your hands and wearing a mask and not queuing on top of each other?. Or two kindergartners. Or two Gardaí. Or two OAPs...........oh, wait, you couldn't give a monkeys about the deaths of those with that age profile.

I'm sick to the back fcuking teeth of people saying "ah, well, sure they had a good innings, they were gonna die soon anyway". As if those folks are dispensable in any way or their lives count less because they've done a few more laps around the sun. Fcuking despicable is what it is.

My fianceé's father retired at 65 a couple of years ago. His wife is of a similar age. BOTH of his parents attended the retirement party, singing and dancing and joking with all the grandkids and great-grandkids. Full of life, the 4 of them.

I dare anybody to stand in front of me and tell me that their deaths is a price they're willing to pay when the alternative is that we have to borrow a few (more) quid, have a few cans at home and wear a bleedin mask when going the shops.

And I'll tell you one thing, if the shoe was on the other foot.....and this disease was 'only' killing youngsters and left the elderly pretty much alone, and all advice was for those who might expose the young folk to a deadly virus to stay at home.........there wouldn't be a sinner on the feckin streets. You bet your bollocks they'd be following the guidelines to a T.

28-09-2020 04:20PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

As regards Covid being a lone beast.

All nursing home deaths were tested for Covid.

Are all nursing home deaths tested for influenza?

Why are you asking me that? What will your response be if the answer is yes? What will it be if the answer is no?

FintanMcluskey · 28-09-2020 04:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes......the daily death rate of ALL deaths is higher.......imagine that?

Go back and read my post again. I said if two died from any single aspect of society. Imagine two taxi drivers were killed every day from something that was as easily preventable as washing your hands and wearing a mask and not queuing on top of each other?. Or two kindergartners. Or two Gardaí. Or two OAPs...........oh, wait, you couldn't give a monkeys about the deaths of those with that age profile.

I'm sick to the back fcuking teeth of people saying "ah, well, sure they had a good innings, they were gonna die soon anyway". As if those folks are dispensable in any way or their lives count less because they've done a few more laps around the sun. Fcuking despicable is what it is.

My fianceé's father retired at 65 a couple of years ago. His wife is of a similar age. BOTH of his parents attended the retirement party, singing and dancing and joking with all the grandkids and great-grandkids. Full of life, the 4 of them.

I dare anybody to stand in front of me and tell me that their deaths is a price they're willing to pay when the alternative is that we have to borrow a few (more) quid, have a few cans at home and wear a bleedin mask when going the shops.

And I'll tell you one thing, if the shoe was on the other foot.....and this disease was 'only' killing youngsters and left the elderly pretty much alone, and all advice was for those who might expose the young folk to a deadly virus to stay at home.........there wouldn't be a sinner on the feckin streets. You bet your bollocks they'd be following the guidelines to a T.

We if they are healthy enough to be out dancing, and to not be in a nursing or obese then the odds of them dying from Covid is slim.

People seem to think nursing homes are only inhibited by healthy, mobile citizens over 65 who have an incredibly active life.

FintanMcluskey · 28-09-2020 04:23PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are you asking me that? What will your response be if the answer is yes? What will it be if the answer is no?

You said Covid is a lone beast regarding respiratory illnesses.

Im just trying to see how thats quantified

28-09-2020 04:30PM

That's not what I said at all.

I said Covid is a lone beast, i.e. that 2 per day figure is a calculation of 700 people dying just FROM COVID ALONE in the next year.
Another poster said that figure is inconsequential, because 9 people die from [insert 14 different diseases here].
Do you see what point I'm trying to get across?
It's a stupid argument to say "We shouldn't worry about disease A, when Diseases B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K L, M, N, O and P combined kill nearly five times as many."

polesheep · 28-09-2020 04:32PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes......the daily death rate of ALL deaths is higher.......imagine that?

Go back and read my post again. I said if two died from any single aspect of society. Imagine two taxi drivers were killed every day from something that was as easily preventable as washing your hands and wearing a mask and not queuing on top of each other?. Or two kindergartners. Or two Gardaí. Or two OAPs...........oh, wait, you couldn't give a monkeys about the deaths of those with that age profile.

I'm sick to the back fcuking teeth of people saying "ah, well, sure they had a good innings, they were gonna die soon anyway". As if those folks are dispensable in any way or their lives count less because they've done a few more laps around the sun. Fcuking despicable is what it is.

My fianceé's father retired at 65 a couple of years ago. His wife is of a similar age. BOTH of his parents attended the retirement party, singing and dancing and joking with all the grandkids and great-grandkids. Full of life, the 4 of them.

I dare anybody to stand in front of me and tell me that their deaths is a price they're willing to pay when the alternative is that we have to borrow a few (more) quid, have a few cans at home and wear a bleedin mask when going the shops.

And I'll tell you one thing, if the shoe was on the other foot.....and this disease was 'only' killing youngsters and left the elderly pretty much alone, and all advice was for those who might expose the young folk to a deadly virus to stay at home.........there wouldn't be a sinner on the feckin streets. You bet your bollocks they'd be following the guidelines to a T.

And I'll tell you another; most of them would say, "I'm not wasting the last precious years of my life staying at home." It's human nature.

28-09-2020 04:33PM

It would be laughable were it not so disgusting how 2k deaths additional deaths are acceptable just because 30k people die per year in the country. How does someone have that mentality.

There is only a small fraction of the numbers killed by covid killed on the roads and yet reducing this is a massive topic and constantly in the news with huge resources dedicated to it every year.

28-09-2020 04:36PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

We if they are healthy enough to be out dancing, and to not be in a nursing or obese then the odds of them dying from Covid is slim.

I wouldn't do them the disservice of spreading rumours about them online, but they have aspects of what we've come to know as 'underlying conditions'. It's not just the terminally ill who are popping their clogs.

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

People seem to think nursing homes are only inhibited by healthy, mobile citizens over 65 who have an incredibly active life.

And others seem to think that they're full of wraiths, folks who are inches from death, clinging on with their feeble hands as they circle the drain on the way out the door.

Quick question: Do you think it is okay for people in nursing homes to die before their natural time comes? That just because they're in poor health anyway, or need assistance to get around......that they should just take one for the team? Because that what it reads like from my position. You sound like a sociopath.

Ginger n Lemon · 28-09-2020 04:37PM

Grant Billions Bifocals wrote: »

It would be laughable were it not so disgusting how 2k deaths additional deaths are acceptable just because 30k people die per year in the country. How does someone have that mentality.

There is only a small fraction of the numbers killed by covid killed on the roads and yet reducing this is a massive topic and constantly in the news with huge resources dedicated to it every year.

We've been told back in June by CMO that there will be no excess deaths this year.

Just like there ll be no excess deaths in Sweden this year.

Morale of the story? Same amount of people will die as in 2019, but in addition to their death they've had a positive PCR test result.

28-09-2020 04:38PM

Grant Billions Bifocals wrote: »

It would be laughable were it not so disgusting how 2k deaths additional deaths are acceptable just because 30k people die per year in the country. How does someone have that mentality.

There is only a small fraction of the numbers killed by covid killed on the roads and yet reducing this is a massive topic and constantly in the news with huge resources dedicated to it every year.

They are not additional deaths.
Most of those that died would have died very soon anyways.

Most of the deaths were simply too old and sick to go to hospital/ICU.

In the over 65 category there was 1658 deaths. Only 164 in that category went to ICU.

hynesie08 · 28-09-2020 04:40PM

Grant Billions Bifocals wrote: »

It would be laughable were it not so disgusting how 2k deaths additional deaths are acceptable just because 30k people die per year in the country. How does someone have that mentality.

There is only a small fraction of the numbers killed by covid killed on the roads and yet reducing this is a massive topic and constantly in the news with huge resources dedicated to it every year.

Fantastic example nox, there are hundreds of avoidable deaths caused by cars, and yet instead of removing cars, we implement measures to educate and inform so that we can minimise those numbers, but you'll always have a few who think the rules don't apply and basically do what they want........

Covid is the same, we can't have zero deaths, so we need to make sure that people have the best odds and punish those who ignore regulations, all while living our lives.

FintanMcluskey · 28-09-2020 04:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't do them the disservice of spreading rumours about them online, but they have aspects of what we've come to know as 'underlying conditions'. It's not just the terminally ill who are popping their clogs.

And others seem to think that they're full of wraiths, folks who are inches from death, clinging on with their feeble hands as they circle the drain on the way out the door.

Quick question: Do you think it is okay for people in nursing homes to die before their natural time comes? That just because they're in poor health anyway, or need assistance to get around......that they should just take one for the team? Because that what it reads like from my position. You sound like a sociopath.

Have you evidence its not the terminally ill that have died?

We know circa 100 people died in ICU so we can certaintly assume they were early deaths.

Now the other 1600 hundred is where the discussion occurs as to can we say they would be alive today without Covid?

robbiezero · 28-09-2020 04:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes......the daily death rate of ALL deaths is higher.......imagine that?

Go back and read my post again. I said if two died from any single aspect of society. Imagine two taxi drivers were killed every day from something that was as easily preventable as washing your hands and wearing a mask and not queuing on top of each other?. Or two kindergartners. Or two Gardaí. Or two OAPs...........oh, wait, you couldn't give a monkeys about the deaths of those with that age profile.

I'm sick to the back fcuking teeth of people saying "ah, well, sure they had a good innings, they were gonna die soon anyway". As if those folks are dispensable in any way or their lives count less because they've done a few more laps around the sun. Fcuking despicable is what it is.

My fianceé's father retired at 65 a couple of years ago. His wife is of a similar age. BOTH of his parents attended the retirement party, singing and dancing and joking with all the grandkids and great-grandkids. Full of life, the 4 of them.

I dare anybody to stand in front of me and tell me that their deaths is a price they're willing to pay when the alternative is that we have to borrow a few (more) quid, have a few cans at home and wear a bleedin mask when going the shops.

And I'll tell you one thing, if the shoe was on the other foot.....and this disease was 'only' killing youngsters and left the elderly pretty much alone, and all advice was for those who might expose the young folk to a deadly virus to stay at home.........there wouldn't be a sinner on the feckin streets. You bet your bollocks they'd be following the guidelines to a T.

Me bollix they would.

polesheep · 28-09-2020 04:44PM

hynesie08 wrote: »

Fantastic example nox, there are hundreds of avoidable deaths caused by cars, and yet instead of removing cars, we implement measures to educate and inform so that we can minimise those numbers, but you'll always have a few who think the rules don't apply and basically do what they want........

Covid is the same, we can't have zero deaths, so we need to make sure that people have the best odds and punish those who ignore regulations, all while living our lives.

"Do whatever it takes to protect me or I'll have you punished." At least the fluff is being blown away from a lot of arguments.

hynesie08 · 28-09-2020 04:45PM

polesheep wrote: »

"Do whatever it takes to protect me or I'll have you punished." At least the fluff is being blown away from a lot of arguments.

What?

ixoy · 28-09-2020 04:45PM

hynesie08 wrote: »

Fantastic example nox, there are hundreds of avoidable deaths caused by cars, and yet instead of removing cars, we implement measures to educate and inform so that we can minimise those numbers, but you'll always have a few who think the rules don't apply and basically do what they want........

The cost and effort of reducing car deaths is a miniscule fraction of the efforts for combatting covid-19 - socially, economically and so on. It's not to say we shouldn't make effort but they're in a different league altogether.

FintanMcluskey · 28-09-2020 04:45PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

We've been told back in June by CMO that there will be no excess deaths this year.

Just like there ll be no excess deaths in Sweden this year.

Morale of the story? Same amount of people will die as in 2019, but in addition to their death they've had a positive PCR test result.

Its incredibly clever, question the restrictions - far right lunatic.

Question that people dying well above life expectancy would be unlikely to be unexpected- sociopath

Lets just ignore the data, and throw out hyperbole.

polesheep · 28-09-2020 04:47PM

hynesie08 wrote: »

What?

What's not to understand? You want to punish people who don't follow regulations initiated to protect you.

28-09-2020 04:47PM

Grant Billions Bifocals wrote: »

It would be laughable were it not so disgusting how 2k deaths additional deaths are acceptable just because 30k people die per year in the country. How does someone have that mentality.

There is only a small fraction of the numbers killed by covid killed on the roads and yet reducing this is a massive topic and constantly in the news with huge resources dedicated to it every year.

Excess deaths are actually at about 850-900, and maybe even lower by now.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0828/1161895-excess-mortality-figures/

28-09-2020 04:47PM

polesheep wrote: »

And I'll tell you another; most of them would say, "I'm not wasting the last precious years of my life staying at home." It's human nature.

I respectfully disagree, hence why I said the exact opposite. Older folks have a much greater sense of social responsibility. They've lived through some of the worst that humankind ever experienced, and came out all the better for it on the other side

Also, it's not human nature to prioritise your own wants over everybody else's needs......It's a bunch of selfish "I'm alright Jack, fcuk the rest of yiz" fartknockers ruining it for the rest of us. I guess we know which camp you belong in, anyway?

hynesie08 · 28-09-2020 04:49PM

polesheep wrote: »

What's not to understand? You want to punish people who don't follow regulations initiated to protect you.

Yes, you don't?

polesheep · 28-09-2020 04:50PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I respectfully disagree, hence why I said the exact opposite. Older folks have a much greater sense of social responsibility. They've lived through some of the worst that humankind ever experienced, and came out all the better for it on the other side

Also, it's not human nature to prioritise your own wants over everybody else's needs......It's a bunch of selfish "I'm alright Jack, fcuk the rest of yiz" fartknockers ruining it for the rest of us. I guess we know which camp you belong in, anyway?

People are people. Some young people will abide by whatever restrictions are deemed necessary to keep older vulnerable people safe, and if the shoe was on the other foot SOME older people would abide, while others wouldn't. That's human nature.

FintanMcluskey · 28-09-2020 04:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I respectfully disagree, hence why I said the exact opposite. Older folks have a much greater sense of social responsibility. They've lived through some of the worst that humankind ever experienced, and came out all the better for it on the other side

Also, it's not human nature to prioritise your own wants over everybody else's needs......It's a bunch of selfish "I'm alright Jack, fcuk the rest of yiz" fartknockers ruining it for the rest of us. I guess we know which camp you belong in, anyway?

I dont remember hearing about the restrictions in the 50s until a vaccine for TB was produced.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - Read OP for Mod Warnings