Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

FintanMcluskey

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't do them the disservice of spreading rumours about them online, but they have aspects of what we've come to know as 'underlying conditions'. It's not just the terminally ill who are popping their clogs.



And others seem to think that they're full of wraiths, folks who are inches from death, clinging on with their feeble hands as they circle the drain on the way out the door.

Quick question: Do you think it is okay for people in nursing homes to die before their natural time comes? That just because they're in poor health anyway, or need assistance to get around......that they should just take one for the team? Because that what it reads like from my position. You sound like a sociopath.

Have you evidence its not the terminally ill that have died?

We know circa 100 people died in ICU so we can certaintly assume they were early deaths.

Now the other 1600 hundred is where the discussion occurs as to can we say they would be alive today without Covid?

robbiezero

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes......the daily death rate of ALL deaths is higher.......imagine that?

Go back and read my post again. I said if two died from any single aspect of society. Imagine two taxi drivers were killed every day from something that was as easily preventable as washing your hands and wearing a mask and not queuing on top of each other?. Or two kindergartners. Or two Gardaí. Or two OAPs...........oh, wait, you couldn't give a monkeys about the deaths of those with that age profile.

I'm sick to the back fcuking teeth of people saying "ah, well, sure they had a good innings, they were gonna die soon anyway". As if those folks are dispensable in any way or their lives count less because they've done a few more laps around the sun. Fcuking despicable is what it is.

My fianceé's father retired at 65 a couple of years ago. His wife is of a similar age. BOTH of his parents attended the retirement party, singing and dancing and joking with all the grandkids and great-grandkids. Full of life, the 4 of them.

I dare anybody to stand in front of me and tell me that their deaths is a price they're willing to pay when the alternative is that we have to borrow a few (more) quid, have a few cans at home and wear a bleedin mask when going the shops.

And I'll tell you one thing, if the shoe was on the other foot.....and this disease was 'only' killing youngsters and left the elderly pretty much alone, and all advice was for those who might expose the young folk to a deadly virus to stay at home.........there wouldn't be a sinner on the feckin streets. You bet your bollocks they'd be following the guidelines to a T.

Me bollix they would.

polesheep

hynesie08 wrote: »

Fantastic example nox, there are hundreds of avoidable deaths caused by cars, and yet instead of removing cars, we implement measures to educate and inform so that we can minimise those numbers, but you'll always have a few who think the rules don't apply and basically do what they want........

Covid is the same, we can't have zero deaths, so we need to make sure that people have the best odds and punish those who ignore regulations, all while living our lives.

"Do whatever it takes to protect me or I'll have you punished." At least the fluff is being blown away from a lot of arguments.

hynesie08

polesheep wrote: »

"Do whatever it takes to protect me or I'll have you punished." At least the fluff is being blown away from a lot of arguments.

What?

ixoy

hynesie08 wrote: »

Fantastic example nox, there are hundreds of avoidable deaths caused by cars, and yet instead of removing cars, we implement measures to educate and inform so that we can minimise those numbers, but you'll always have a few who think the rules don't apply and basically do what they want........

The cost and effort of reducing car deaths is a miniscule fraction of the efforts for combatting covid-19 - socially, economically and so on. It's not to say we shouldn't make effort but they're in a different league altogether.

FintanMcluskey

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

We've been told back in June by CMO that there will be no excess deaths this year.

Just like there ll be no excess deaths in Sweden this year.

Morale of the story? Same amount of people will die as in 2019, but in addition to their death they've had a positive PCR test result.

Its incredibly clever, question the restrictions - far right lunatic.

Question that people dying well above life expectancy would be unlikely to be unexpected- sociopath

Lets just ignore the data, and throw out hyperbole.

polesheep

hynesie08 wrote: »

What?

What's not to understand? You want to punish people who don't follow regulations initiated to protect you.

AdamD

Grant Billions Bifocals wrote: »

It would be laughable were it not so disgusting how 2k deaths additional deaths are acceptable just because 30k people die per year in the country. How does someone have that mentality.

There is only a small fraction of the numbers killed by covid killed on the roads and yet reducing this is a massive topic and constantly in the news with huge resources dedicated to it every year.

Excess deaths are actually at about 850-900, and maybe even lower by now.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0828/1161895-excess-mortality-figures/

polesheep

polesheep wrote: »

And I'll tell you another; most of them would say, "I'm not wasting the last precious years of my life staying at home." It's human nature.

I respectfully disagree, hence why I said the exact opposite. Older folks have a much greater sense of social responsibility. They've lived through some of the worst that humankind ever experienced, and came out all the better for it on the other side

Also, it's not human nature to prioritise your own wants over everybody else's needs......It's a bunch of selfish "I'm alright Jack, fcuk the rest of yiz" fartknockers ruining it for the rest of us. I guess we know which camp you belong in, anyway?

hynesie08

polesheep wrote: »

What's not to understand? You want to punish people who don't follow regulations initiated to protect you.

Yes, you don't?

polesheep

Deleted User wrote: »

I respectfully disagree, hence why I said the exact opposite. Older folks have a much greater sense of social responsibility. They've lived through some of the worst that humankind ever experienced, and came out all the better for it on the other side

Also, it's not human nature to prioritise your own wants over everybody else's needs......It's a bunch of selfish "I'm alright Jack, fcuk the rest of yiz" fartknockers ruining it for the rest of us. I guess we know which camp you belong in, anyway?

People are people. Some young people will abide by whatever restrictions are deemed necessary to keep older vulnerable people safe, and if the shoe was on the other foot SOME older people would abide, while others wouldn't. That's human nature.

FintanMcluskey

Deleted User wrote: »

I respectfully disagree, hence why I said the exact opposite. Older folks have a much greater sense of social responsibility. They've lived through some of the worst that humankind ever experienced, and came out all the better for it on the other side

Also, it's not human nature to prioritise your own wants over everybody else's needs......It's a bunch of selfish "I'm alright Jack, fcuk the rest of yiz" fartknockers ruining it for the rest of us. I guess we know which camp you belong in, anyway?

I dont remember hearing about the restrictions in the 50s until a vaccine for TB was produced.

polesheep

hynesie08 wrote: »

Yes, you don't?

Absolutely not! If some people had their way we would be beaten with sticks for simply leaving our homes.

hynesie08

Deleted User wrote: »

I respectfully disagree, hence why I said the exact opposite. Older folks have a much greater sense of social responsibility. They've lived through some of the worst that humankind ever experienced, and came out all the better for it on the other side

No, older folks are just as capable of being selfish pricks as the rest of us

Also, it's not human nature to prioritise your own wants over everybody else's needs......It's a bunch of selfish "I'm alright Jack, fcuk the rest of yiz" fartknockers ruining it for the rest of us. I guess we know which camp you belong in, anyway?

I'd argue that self preservation existed long before community spirit or whatever you want to call it, and is the most prevailant human trait.

FintanMcluskey

AdamD wrote: »

Excess deaths are actually at about 850-900, and maybe even lower by now.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0828/1161895-excess-mortality-figures/

Haha, read an article in the Journal a few weeks ago that said reduced mortality figures for July was fake news.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Most of those that died would have died very soon anyways.

There we have it, finally, out in the open. Zero data to back it up, zero evidence of any kind, just brazen "they were as good as dead, those folk". You, sir, are a scumbag.

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Have you evidence its not the terminally ill that have died?

Have I evidence to prove something didn't happen? No, that's not how the burden of proof works. Have you evidence to prove that they were all terminally ill?

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I dont remember hearing about the restrictions in the 50s until a vaccine for TB was produced.

Because they weren't imposed by the Government of the day. Funny that. You're also ignoring the fact that the population was half of what it is now and that it killed 1,000 people per year for a decade. Would you rather we went down that route?

Ginger n Lemon

Jesus, wow, tempers are flying high in this thread.

Lets not resort to name calling.

bucketybuck

Deleted User wrote: »

I dare anybody to stand in front of me and tell me that their deaths is a price they're willing to pay when the alternative is that we have to borrow a few (more) quid, have a few cans at home and wear a bleedin mask when going the shops.

I'm going to ignore all the emotive hand wringing, if you can't put your 2 deaths a day into its proper perspective alongside the other 80 people who pass away daily then thats on you, virtue signal all you want.

I do find it interesting that while you preach on one hand, on the other you significantly downplay the negative effects this fight against Covid has in other areas. Borrow a few quid and have a few cans at home, is that what you really think about the tens of thousands of people who have lost their jobs, about the hundreds of thousands who have had their lives put on hold, about the men not being able to be with their partners at childbirth, about the people unable to go to their families funerals.

Borrow a few quid and have a few cans. Why don't you stand in front of me and explain that bull****.

Borrow a few quid and have a few cans at home, is that what you really think about the tens of thousands of people who have lost their jobs

Not permanent, you can always get another job and sure here's 350 a week until you do

bout the hundreds of thousands who have had their lives put on hold,

Again, not permanent. The health authorities have a lot to answer for in terms of putting a freeze on things like cancer screenings etc, but everyone else.......so you've to wait til next year to get married, boo fcuking hoo?

about the men not being able to be with their partners at childbirth,

Gimme a break, are you saying that's comparable to people losing their parents, grandparents and relatives FOREVER?

about the people unable to go to their families funerals.

Earlier in the year that was the case, and I wasn't a big fan of it. However the new 5 level living plan allows 10 people attend a funeral at level 5, with increases at every level, so that point is moot.

Borrow a few quid and have a few cans. Why don't you stand in front of me and explain that bull****.

No problem, I'll say it to you outside my Granny-in-law's gaff and you can tell her to start saying her goodbyes because you're only getting 350 a week and have to do up the auld CV and can't go the pub and *checks notes* some lads can't be there when their kid was born (a practice that was banned in her time).

Ginger n Lemon

Deleted User wrote: »

Not permanent, you can always get another job and sure here's 350 a week until you do



Again, not permanent. The health authorities have a lot to answer for in terms of putting a freeze on things like cancer screenings etc, but everyone else.......so you've to wait til next year to get married, boo fcuking hoo?


Gimme a break, are you saying that's comparable to people losing their parents, grandparents and relatives FOREVER?



Earlier in the year that was the case, and I wasn't a big fan of it. However the new 5 level living plan allows 10 people attend a funeral at level 5, with increases at every level, so that point is moot.



No problem, I'll say it to you outside my Granny-in-law's gaff and you can tell her to start saying her goodbyes because you're only getting 350 a week and have to do up the auld CV and can't go the pub and *checks notes* some lads can't be there when their kid was born (a practice that was banned in her time).

Jaysus Shifty, nobody gets 350 euros per week anymore. Get with the times.

Has your job been affected? or your income levels?

funnydoggy

Deleted User wrote: »

No problem, I'll say it to you outside my Granny-in-law's gaff and you can tell her to start saying her goodbyes because you're only getting 350 a week and have to do up the auld CV and can't go the pub and *checks notes* some lads can't be there when their kid was born (a practice that was banned in her time).

Not nice man. It's not a trivial thing. Ask any mother who's had to got through it alone lately. It's heartbreaking for the mother.

ArthurDayne

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes......the daily death rate of ALL deaths is higher.......imagine that?

Go back and read my post again. I said if two died from any single aspect of society. Imagine two taxi drivers were killed every day from something that was as easily preventable as washing your hands and wearing a mask and not queuing on top of each other?. Or two kindergartners. Or two Gardaí. Or two OAPs...........oh, wait, you couldn't give a monkeys about the deaths of those with that age profile.

I'm sick to the back fcuking teeth of people saying "ah, well, sure they had a good innings, they were gonna die soon anyway". As if those folks are dispensable in any way or their lives count less because they've done a few more laps around the sun. Fcuking despicable is what it is.

My fianceé's father retired at 65 a couple of years ago. His wife is of a similar age. BOTH of his parents attended the retirement party, singing and dancing and joking with all the grandkids and great-grandkids. Full of life, the 4 of them.

I dare anybody to stand in front of me and tell me that their deaths is a price they're willing to pay when the alternative is that we have to borrow a few (more) quid, have a few cans at home and wear a bleedin mask when going the shops.

And I'll tell you one thing, if the shoe was on the other foot.....and this disease was 'only' killing youngsters and left the elderly pretty much alone, and all advice was for those who might expose the young folk to a deadly virus to stay at home.........there wouldn't be a sinner on the feckin streets. You bet your bollocks they'd be following the guidelines to a T.

Oh great, another morality lecture from yet another person who seems to hold a monopoly on the understanding of human suffering.

Tell me, do you support the idea of a gradual reopening of the country, with some restrictions which we lift as time passes and cases decrease? If yes, then you are a hypocrite. It is an inevitable consequence of reopening, even with good compliance across the nation, that there will be at least some further Covid deaths in a gradual reopening scenario. Go on then, are you going to be morally consistent and say to my face that these deaths are a price worth paying for us to gradually return to normality? Or are you going to perform some philosophical gymnastics to tell me “oh that’s different that is”?

When the Covid crisis subsides, are you in favour of life returning to more-or-less normal — even though diseases which can kill people, including children, will still be circulating in our communities? Influenza can kill young and old people — should we lock down forever to minimise the chance that it can kill those people, or is it the case that you are making a cold moral calculation that those lives are a price worth paying for us all to be able to go to a pub? Are you going to tell us it’s an acceptably small number of deaths for you to be able to have a pint?

Do you think it’s a reasonable statement that — at the very least — some people will commit (or indeed already have committed) suicide as a result of depression, loneliness and/or other socioeconomic pressures exerted by lockdown and restrictions? Are you going to say to my face that, yeah, it’s OK that a few depressed people kill themselves because we saved lives elsewhere ? The greater good and all that right? That one dead depressed twenty-something is better than 15 dead octogenarians? Of course you aren’t going to say something like that, because we are all f***ing human beings here who take no satisfaction from people suffering and dying.

I’m sure you’re a decent person but, like everyone else here, you are no divine prophet of morality, you are merely drawing a line where you personally believe the moral threshold to be, and are acting as if your line is drawn at the standard of righteousness. You are weighing up the moral problems posed by one issue, Covid, while others are arguing that there are also other moral issues at play which need to be weighed. None of us is completely right and none of us is completely wrong — the difference is that some of us have the humility to accept the ethical imperfection of our views, and accept that the way we live our lives invariably involves making difficult moral trade offs. You on the other hand sit there preaching like your farts smell of lavender.

JRant

100 people in hospital, 18 of which are in ICU and we've imposed severe restrictions in the Capital along with destroying countless people's lives. In no reasonable manner is this a proportionate response.

The government have failed miserably to get a working test and trace program in place while at the same time not preparing the hospital system for winter. But, yeah, it's people not wearing masks outdoors that's the problem.

VG31

JRant wrote: »

100 people in hospital, 18 of which are in ICU and we've imposed severe restrictions in the Capital along with destroying countless people's lives. In no reasonable manner is this a proportionate response.

ICU numbers are 16 now, 2 people discharged in the last 24 hours. Still 100 people in hospital. Hospitalisations seem to be fairly stable considering the rise in cases.

Assetbacked

Assetbacked wrote: »

Over 400 cases and no deaths is fantastic news. That continues to push the death rate down towards 0%. For weeks we have had hundreds of daily cases and deaths are on the floor, at or close to 0 consistently. We will be vindicated that post-lockdown has been a total OTT reaction to the whole thing.

790 cases and 0 deaths adding today's tally to yesterday's numbers. We are seeing the last few months that cases aren't really translating into hospitalisations so these are extremely positive numbers. Let's say it together, "not looking even as harmful as the flu the way things are going".

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-further-390-cases-reported-as-taoiseach-warns-next-two-weeks-critical-1.4366678?mode=amp

The next two weeks are critical! Haha! It's like they are a parody of themselves at this point, the extreme and OTT response looks like a joke and I struggle to believe these politicians even believe their own nonsense. It seems too unbelievable to me, that even they cannot believe it.

3xh

VG31 wrote: »

ICU numbers are 16 now, 2 people discharged in the last 24 hours. Still 100 people in hospital. Hospitalisations seem to be fairly stable considering the rise in cases.

Yep. And let it be said once again, if you are admitted to hospital for whatever reason and therefore tested for Covid, if positive, you’re in that hospital figure Glynn announces to the media.

It’s worth saying this as people still don’t know this.

Yet it’s massively different to saying we have 100 people with Covid who we have advised to come in for closer observation because they’re saying they feel they’re getting worse and struggling to breathe.

Glynn should really stress the difference when announcing those figures.

SusieBlue

The downplaying of the thousands of job losses is absolutely stomach turning.
Do people not realise that this will cause a whole new set of problems, including an increase of avoidable deaths of a different kind?
Do their lives not matter, or just not matter as much as covid patients do?

You would swear there were hundreds of lucrative job opportunities right on our doorstep just waiting to be snapped up, I can only assume the people making such blasé statements have zero experience of the current job market and are in secure employment.

They are happily sacrificing the livelihoods and futures of other people from their high horses while they sit comfortably in their secure jobs, all in the name of fighting the good fight against the virus.
No ones life is more important than the next.
We should all be equal, and we have to strike a balance between reasonable caution and allowing people to earn a living and better themselves.
Shutting down entire industries and cities is not reasonable caution, it’s throwing the baby out with the bath water.
We shouldn’t be flushing the employment opportunities and futures of our young people down the toilet to ‘protect’ elderly people against a virus that appears to be less lethal by the day.

We are 8 months in, everyone has made enough sacrifices and unreasonable to ask any more of people who have already given up so much.
If I lose a second job to these restrictions it will destroy what little hope and self confidence I have left, as well as ruining all the life plans I have for the coming years.
I will be stuck living with my parents till I’m 40 at this rate.

Ashleigh1986

I love it when they come out with the ... Per one hundred thousand figure .
Fxxk sake there's only a couple of cities in the whole country with a population over 100,000 .
But it's better for their pure drama if they relate to saying per 100,000 rather than the ACTUAL number .
Even the local radio station was at it this morning with the town of loughrea .
Quoting figures per hundred thousand .... Fxxk sake loughrea has just over 5,000 people living in it .

MadYaker

JRant wrote: »

100 people in hospital, 18 of which are in ICU and we've imposed severe restrictions in the Capital along with destroying countless people's lives. In no reasonable manner is this a proportionate response.

The government have failed miserably to get a working test and trace program in place while at the same time not preparing the hospital system for winter. But, yeah, it's people not wearing masks outdoors that's the problem.

People dying is sad whatever, but people die all the time that’s not the reason for the restrictions. It’s because of our pathetic health system capacity. 18 people in ICU beds sounds like a small number but compared how many beds are free it’s actually a big number.

The test and trace program is sufficient it’s the health system that is screwing us. It’s one of the reasons sweden can plough on like they have with all the people who’ve died. One positive I hope to come from this a proper health service in the future with excess capacity.

funnydoggy

SusieBlue wrote: »

The downplaying of the thousands of job losses is absolutely stomach turning.
Do people not realise that this will cause a whole new set of problems, including an increase of avoidable deaths of a different kind?
Do their lives not matter, or just not matter as much as covid patients do?

You would swear there were hundreds of lucrative job opportunities right on our doorstep just waiting to be snapped up, I can only assume the people making such blasé statements have zero experience of the current job market and are in secure employment.

They are happily sacrificing the livelihoods and futures of other people from their high horses while they sit comfortably in their secure jobs, all in the name of fighting the good fight against the virus.
No ones life is more important than the next.
We should all be equal, and we have to strike a balance between reasonable caution and allowing people to earn a living and better themselves.
Shutting down entire industries and cities is not reasonable caution, it’s throwing the baby out with the bath water.
We shouldn’t be flushing the employment opportunities and futures of our young people down the toilet to ‘protect’ elderly people against a virus that appears to be less lethal by the day.

We are 8 months in, everyone has made enough sacrifices and unreasonable to ask any more of people who have already given up so much.
If I lose a second job to these restrictions it will destroy what little hope and self confidence I have left, as well as ruining all the life plans I have for the coming years.
I will be stuck living with my parents till I’m 40 at this rate.

This is such a valid point and a great post.


YES the virus is an issue. We need to keep the vulnerable healthy.

We also need to keep a strong economy.

Lives and livelihoods are both as important.

Follow the guidelines yeah, I do it. I don't want to catch or spread it.


But, I do see how massively troubling it is. I spent the last 2 months of lockdown depressed off my f*cking head because I was bored, living at home and it was toxic. My mental health matters but let's be fair my situation wasn't the end of the world and I found it horrible to deal with.