Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

Don't Chute!

average_runner wrote: »

Nope, just under control. We have other treatments on going in the hospitals and we don't want them to stop again.


People would like to visit their parents in nursing homes and maybe take them out for a few hours.


If we can learn to live and control the virus we can go back to normal.


Right now we are heading for a total lockdown in a month or so.


Its in our own hands on what happens

Total lockdown?
Is that what’s going to happen or is it what you WANT to happen? Because they are two wildly different things.

snowcat

average_runner wrote: »

Current restrictions for madrid
"

• Residents are only allowed to enter and exit the zones on work, educational, legal or medical grounds.
• Residents may move freely around their zones but may not step outside the perimeter without a legitimate reason. Police officers will carry out daily checks in the affected areas to ensure these restrictions are respected.
• Churches, mosques and synagogues must reduce their capacity to one third. Funeral services may be held with a maximum of 15 mourners outdoors and 10 indoors.
• Shops must reduce their capacity to 50% and bring their closing time forward to 10pm (except chemists’, health centres, vets, petrol stations and other shops regarded as essential).
• Restaurants, bars and cafés are no longer allowed to serve at the bar and must reduce capacity to 50%. They must close at 10pm, except if they are providing home delivery services.
• Academies and driving schools must also reduce their capacity to 50% and groups attending lessons may not exceed 6 people.
• Both indoor and outdoor sports facilities remain open although their capacity is reduced to 50% and the groups are limited to 6 people.
• Parks remain closed."

Number of areas in restrictions zone
"n the city of Madrid, the affected health areas are located in the city districts of Carabanchel (the health areas of Puerta Bonita, Vista Alegre and Guayaba), Usera (Almendrales, Las Calesas, Zofío, Orcasitas, Orcasur and San Fermín), Villaverde (San Andrés, San Cristóbal, El Espinillo and Los Rosales), Villa de Vallecas, Puente de Vallecas (Entrevías, Martínez de la Riva, San Diego, Numancia, Peña Prieta, Pozo del Tío Raimundo, Ángela Uriarte, Alcalá de Guadaira, Campo de la Paloma, Rafael Alberti and Federica Montseny), Vicálvaro (Vicálvaro-Artilleros) and Ciudad Lineal (Doctor Cirajas, García Noblejas, Ghandi, Daroca and La Elipa). The affected municipalities besides the capital are Fuenlabrada (the health areas of Alicante, Cuzco, Panaderas and Francia), Parla (San Blas and Isabel II), San Sebastián de los Reyes (Reyes Católicos), Getafe (Las Margaritas and Sánchez Morate), Alcobendas (Chopera and Miraflores), Alcorcón (Miguel Servet and Doctor Trueta) and the entire towns of Humanes and Moraleja de Enmedio."




Now how many Irish would you think would obey the zone rule since we can't obey the county rule right now?

Believe you me they are not obeying it in Madrid either.

Zebra3

average_runner wrote: »

Well if everyone paid tax that would help. If we cut the dole payment after 12 months that would help.


But we don't, we love to give free houses away, free benefits away to people that are just a drain on our society

Don't forget to mention the payrise for our politicians as the state's finances hit the floor.

average_runner

Don't Chute! wrote: »

Total lockdown?
Is that what’s going to happen or is it what you WANT to happen? Because they are two wildly different things.

Already said i am against lockdown

topper75

average_runner wrote: »

Do you mean Mandatory quarantine by the government and not the isolation we have now?

I would say, despite holding individual freedom very dearly, that the government would have some moral authority to enforce something like a 7-day quarantine on people who present with symptoms and test positive. Restrictions or quarantine of the healthy has no moral authority. It is blunt. It is awkward. And next year we will learn just how bloody expensive it is. As just mentioned, punishing all of Wicklow for a Bray outbreak - insane. We saw this as well too with Stranorlar in Donegal - no justification for upsetting the lives of those in Glenties or Inisowen. Achieves precisely nothing and at considerable cost. But bureaucrats simply don't do imagination. They see the big arbitrary Elizabethan boundary and rule on that. We have a political problem now in Ireland and it seeps welll beyond the Oireachtas into many levels of the public service.

average_runner

Zebra3 wrote: »

Don't forget to mention the payrise for our politicians as the state's finances hit the floor.

Very true

facehugger99

facehugger99 wrote: »

With our young population and island location we were the best placed country in Europe to deal with Covid - we will come out of it most likely the worst.

This hyperbolic nonsense is as bad as the "Full lockdown now!!!!" crowd. There have been more than 30k deaths in at least four EU countries. That's the same as the population of Navan.....gone forever in 7 or 8 months. There are only 15 towns and cities in the whole of Ireland with bigger populations than that. #

Saying we'll come out worse than these countries is a disgraceful thing to say.

3xh

I know this is Scotland but to be fair, Sturgeon has led a very strict and pro-restriction policy throughout this. Even usurping Westminster at times before they too follow suit.

Here is what she said today. You’d almost think she’s disappointed to see these figures.


<<<A further 222 coronavirus infections in Scotland

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, speaking at her daily news conference, says a further 222 cases of COVID-19 were reported in Scotland yesterday.


"I do want to immediately add a note of caution around these figures," Ms Sturgeon says.
"As you will have spotted, 222 is the lowest number of cases we have seen for some time and, to be frank with you, this is a lower number than we would have expected to see today.
"It is likely to be a 'weekend effect', indeed reported cases on a Monday... are often lower than on other days.
"Just to be sure I have asked Public Health Scotland to check there are no other issues that may have impacted on the reporting of the figure.">>>

If someone had the previous weekend drop effects, I’d love to see how out of kilter this weekend is compared to those ones.

average_runner

Deleted User wrote: »

This hyperbolic nonsense is as bad as the "Full lockdown now!!!!" crowd. There have been more than 30k deaths in at least four EU countries. That's the same as the population of Navan.....gone forever in 7 or 8 months. There are only 15 towns and cities in the whole of Ireland with bigger populations than that. #

Saying we'll come out worse than these countries is a disgraceful thing to say.

Even more importantly, how many of the young poplulation live with their mums and dads?

Assetbacked

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This hyperbolic nonsense is as bad as the "Full lockdown now!!!!" crowd. There have been more than 30k deaths in at least four EU countries. That's the same as the population of Navan.....gone forever in 7 or 8 months. There are only 15 towns and cities in the whole of Ireland with bigger populations than that. #

Saying we'll come out worse than these countries is a disgraceful thing to say.

We're only looking at an annual death rate of under 700 in the post-lockdown (ie since May) period to May 2021. So of course we aren't looking as bad as other countries.

In other countries and even at EU level there is talk of the ongoing recovery but in Ireland we have not even started our recovery process yet, this is where we'll unnecessarily take a bigger chunk out of the economy than we need to, moreso than other countries.

Idbatterim

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Every single person I have spoken too in the last few weeks has said exactly this . People are disgusted with the HSE with tje lack of progress over the summer

two booms, endless money and its still a shambles! How can any one, have any faith in the farcical morons in every area, that are presiding over this shambles? in HSE, civil servants, politicians etc! pre covid, its this lot of fools on current affairs every night for decades, discussing the same failures!

Assetbacked

Assetbacked wrote: »

We're only looking at an annual death rate of under 700 in the post-lockdown (ie since May) period to May 2021. So of course we aren't looking as bad as other countries.

In other countries and even at EU level there is talk of the ongoing recovery but in Ireland we have not even started our recovery process yet, this is where we'll unnecessarily take a bigger chunk out of the economy than we need to, moreso than other countries.

Couple of points on this:

- "only" 700 is two people per day, every day of the week for a year (with only one on Sundays)
- if two people per day were dying in any other aspect of society, there'd be uproar (and rightly so.....for reference, the highest number of road fatalities in the history of the state was 640 in 1972)
- I'm not sure where you got that 700 figure from, but May was only 4 months ago. This annual figure has 8 months worth of guesstimation built into it and 4 months of real data
- It was also 3 weeks into May before lockdown was lifted to level one and 14 weeks total before level 5 was reached
- So, the 700 figure is based off 3.5 months of the entire country on some form of lockdown, 0.5 months where the largest population centre was still on some form of lockdown, and 8 months of projections based off those data sets
- Surely even the most fervent advocate for the easing of restrictions can see that there is an issue with using lockdown stats to predict non-lockdown figures?
- What people are suggesting here is abandoning precautions in favour of the economy, at a cost of 2 people dying per day, and that is acceptable to some?
- That 700 figure is gonna be well short of the mark, in my opinion, if we take our foot off the brakes
- Other countries have a limitless amount of other factors which need to be borne into account (huge numbers working in hospitality sector, lack of proper social welfare systems, seasonal nature of sunny climates, state of the economy pre-Covid, etc.)
- We're lucky enough to be in a position where most of those don't apply, at least not to the same degree
- So, a slow and steady approach is the prudent option (again, in my opinion)

There are a huge amount of points where our response could have been better. There is an even bigger number where it could have been worse. It's not that long ago we were looking at 14-15 pages of death notices in Italian newspapers, lets not forget. Any time we've had a chance to prove our maturity, certain sections of society have proven they're willing to do whatever the fcuk they want, whenever they want, and consequences be damned (see Oliver Bond, the landlord in Cork, Anti-mask protests, BLM protests, that house in Waterford etc).

If people were willing to follow the rules, there'd be fewer rules. They aren't, so the powers that be are going to impose stricter rules. It is all our own fault.

ranto_boy

Deleted User wrote: »

- if two people per day were dying in any other aspect of society, there'd be uproar (and rightly so.....for reference, the highest number of road fatalities in the history of the state was 640 in 1972)

In 2014, averaged out, we had 9.2 people a day dying from "Diseases of the
Respiratory system".

I don't recall hearing a peep on it.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-1916/1916irl/bmd/deaths/

bucketybuck

Deleted User wrote: »

Couple of points on this:

- "only" 700 is two people per day, every day of the week for a year (with only one on Sundays)
- if two people per day were dying in any other aspect of society, there'd be uproar (and rightly so.....for reference, the highest number of road fatalities in the history of the state was 640 in 1972)

If only two people were dying every day we should be delighted, because the daily death rate is quite a bit higher than that.

Over 32,000 people died in Ireland in 2018 for example, an average of 87 per day. I don't have the figures for 2019 but the years from 2015 up until 2018 were similar, all 30k+.

Add in the age profile of those 700 and I'm sorry, but those 2 a day wouldn't even raise comment if we weren't already on the look out for them, they would just be another 2 out of dozens.

FintanMcluskey

bucketybuck wrote: »

If only two people were dying every day we should be delighted, because the daily death rate is quite a bit higher than that.

Over 32,000 people died in Ireland in 2018 for example, an average of 87 per day. I don't have the figures for 2019 but the years from 2015 up until 2018 were similar, all 30k+.

Add in the age profile of those 700 and I'm sorry, but those 2 a day wouldn't even raise comment if we weren't already on the look out for them, they would just be another 2 out of dozens.

Bottom line is, if we weren't informed about Covid, no one would know it exists outside of doctor's and those informed about respitory illnesses.

People died at the same rate before Covid and will continue to die at the same rate after a vaccine is produced

topper75

Deleted User wrote: »

There is an even bigger number where it could have been worse. It's not that long ago we were looking at 14-15 pages of death notices in Italian newspapers, lets not forget.

The country comparisons on here are rather inconsistent.

We can't be like Sweden - because they are naturally compliant with government wishes in the way Ireland are not apparently.

But we could be like Italy* (thanks for saving us NPHET!).


*Doesn't pay a blind bit of notice to their utterly different demographic profile where 1 in 4 of all Italian citizens was over 65 at the start of the year.

ranto_boy

ranto_boy wrote: »

In 2014, averaged out, we had 9.2 people a day dying from "Diseases of the
Respiratory system".

I don't recall hearing a peep on it.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-1916/1916irl/bmd/deaths/

Really? You didn't hear a peep or read anything about lung cancer, asthma, and cyctic fibrosis in Ireland during that year? I think you're being economical with the truth.

Also, for the record, you're not comparing like with like. There are more than 10 diseases of the respiratory system. COVID is a lone beast. If you examine the biggest of all those diseases, Lung Cancer, there were just under 1,900 deaths in the three years 2014-2016, or about 630 per year (source - page 13). Now, imagine if lung cancer was contagious and you were able to catch it from smokers?

FintanMcluskey

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? You didn't hear a peep or read anything about lung cancer, asthma, and cyctic fibrosis in Ireland during that year? I think you're being economical with the truth.

Also, for the record, you're not comparing like with like. There are more than 10 diseases of the respiratory system. COVID is a lone beast.

As regards Covid being a lone beast.

All nursing home deaths were tested for Covid.

Are all nursing home deaths tested for influenza?

hayoc

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

As regards Covid being a lone beast.

All nursing home deaths were tested for Covid.

Are all nursing home deaths tested for influenza?

I presume nursing home deaths are signed off by a doctor with a cause of death recorded?

bucketybuck

bucketybuck wrote: »

If only two people were dying every day we should be delighted, because the daily death rate is quite a bit higher than that.

Over 32,000 people died in Ireland in 2018 for example, an average of 87 per day. I don't have the figures for 2019 but the years from 2015 up until 2018 were similar, all 30k+.

Add in the age profile of those 700 and I'm sorry, but those 2 a day wouldn't even raise comment if we weren't already on the look out for them, they would just be another 2 out of dozens.

Yes......the daily death rate of ALL deaths is higher.......imagine that?

Go back and read my post again. I said if two died from any single aspect of society. Imagine two taxi drivers were killed every day from something that was as easily preventable as washing your hands and wearing a mask and not queuing on top of each other?. Or two kindergartners. Or two Gardaí. Or two OAPs...........oh, wait, you couldn't give a monkeys about the deaths of those with that age profile.

I'm sick to the back fcuking teeth of people saying "ah, well, sure they had a good innings, they were gonna die soon anyway". As if those folks are dispensable in any way or their lives count less because they've done a few more laps around the sun. Fcuking despicable is what it is.

My fianceé's father retired at 65 a couple of years ago. His wife is of a similar age. BOTH of his parents attended the retirement party, singing and dancing and joking with all the grandkids and great-grandkids. Full of life, the 4 of them.

I dare anybody to stand in front of me and tell me that their deaths is a price they're willing to pay when the alternative is that we have to borrow a few (more) quid, have a few cans at home and wear a bleedin mask when going the shops.

And I'll tell you one thing, if the shoe was on the other foot.....and this disease was 'only' killing youngsters and left the elderly pretty much alone, and all advice was for those who might expose the young folk to a deadly virus to stay at home.........there wouldn't be a sinner on the feckin streets. You bet your bollocks they'd be following the guidelines to a T.

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

As regards Covid being a lone beast.

All nursing home deaths were tested for Covid.

Are all nursing home deaths tested for influenza?

Why are you asking me that? What will your response be if the answer is yes? What will it be if the answer is no?

FintanMcluskey

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes......the daily death rate of ALL deaths is higher.......imagine that?

Go back and read my post again. I said if two died from any single aspect of society. Imagine two taxi drivers were killed every day from something that was as easily preventable as washing your hands and wearing a mask and not queuing on top of each other?. Or two kindergartners. Or two Gardaí. Or two OAPs...........oh, wait, you couldn't give a monkeys about the deaths of those with that age profile.

I'm sick to the back fcuking teeth of people saying "ah, well, sure they had a good innings, they were gonna die soon anyway". As if those folks are dispensable in any way or their lives count less because they've done a few more laps around the sun. Fcuking despicable is what it is.

My fianceé's father retired at 65 a couple of years ago. His wife is of a similar age. BOTH of his parents attended the retirement party, singing and dancing and joking with all the grandkids and great-grandkids. Full of life, the 4 of them.

I dare anybody to stand in front of me and tell me that their deaths is a price they're willing to pay when the alternative is that we have to borrow a few (more) quid, have a few cans at home and wear a bleedin mask when going the shops.

And I'll tell you one thing, if the shoe was on the other foot.....and this disease was 'only' killing youngsters and left the elderly pretty much alone, and all advice was for those who might expose the young folk to a deadly virus to stay at home.........there wouldn't be a sinner on the feckin streets. You bet your bollocks they'd be following the guidelines to a T.

We if they are healthy enough to be out dancing, and to not be in a nursing or obese then the odds of them dying from Covid is slim.

People seem to think nursing homes are only inhibited by healthy, mobile citizens over 65 who have an incredibly active life.

FintanMcluskey

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are you asking me that? What will your response be if the answer is yes? What will it be if the answer is no?

You said Covid is a lone beast regarding respiratory illnesses.

Im just trying to see how thats quantified

That's not what I said at all.

I said Covid is a lone beast, i.e. that 2 per day figure is a calculation of 700 people dying just FROM COVID ALONE in the next year.
Another poster said that figure is inconsequential, because 9 people die from [insert 14 different diseases here].
Do you see what point I'm trying to get across?
It's a stupid argument to say "We shouldn't worry about disease A, when Diseases B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K L, M, N, O and P combined kill nearly five times as many."

polesheep

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes......the daily death rate of ALL deaths is higher.......imagine that?

Go back and read my post again. I said if two died from any single aspect of society. Imagine two taxi drivers were killed every day from something that was as easily preventable as washing your hands and wearing a mask and not queuing on top of each other?. Or two kindergartners. Or two Gardaí. Or two OAPs...........oh, wait, you couldn't give a monkeys about the deaths of those with that age profile.

I'm sick to the back fcuking teeth of people saying "ah, well, sure they had a good innings, they were gonna die soon anyway". As if those folks are dispensable in any way or their lives count less because they've done a few more laps around the sun. Fcuking despicable is what it is.

My fianceé's father retired at 65 a couple of years ago. His wife is of a similar age. BOTH of his parents attended the retirement party, singing and dancing and joking with all the grandkids and great-grandkids. Full of life, the 4 of them.

I dare anybody to stand in front of me and tell me that their deaths is a price they're willing to pay when the alternative is that we have to borrow a few (more) quid, have a few cans at home and wear a bleedin mask when going the shops.

And I'll tell you one thing, if the shoe was on the other foot.....and this disease was 'only' killing youngsters and left the elderly pretty much alone, and all advice was for those who might expose the young folk to a deadly virus to stay at home.........there wouldn't be a sinner on the feckin streets. You bet your bollocks they'd be following the guidelines to a T.

And I'll tell you another; most of them would say, "I'm not wasting the last precious years of my life staying at home." It's human nature.

It would be laughable were it not so disgusting how 2k deaths additional deaths are acceptable just because 30k people die per year in the country. How does someone have that mentality.

There is only a small fraction of the numbers killed by covid killed on the roads and yet reducing this is a massive topic and constantly in the news with huge resources dedicated to it every year.

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

We if they are healthy enough to be out dancing, and to not be in a nursing or obese then the odds of them dying from Covid is slim.

I wouldn't do them the disservice of spreading rumours about them online, but they have aspects of what we've come to know as 'underlying conditions'. It's not just the terminally ill who are popping their clogs.

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

People seem to think nursing homes are only inhibited by healthy, mobile citizens over 65 who have an incredibly active life.

And others seem to think that they're full of wraiths, folks who are inches from death, clinging on with their feeble hands as they circle the drain on the way out the door.

Quick question: Do you think it is okay for people in nursing homes to die before their natural time comes? That just because they're in poor health anyway, or need assistance to get around......that they should just take one for the team? Because that what it reads like from my position. You sound like a sociopath.

Ginger n Lemon

Grant Billions Bifocals wrote: »

It would be laughable were it not so disgusting how 2k deaths additional deaths are acceptable just because 30k people die per year in the country. How does someone have that mentality.

There is only a small fraction of the numbers killed by covid killed on the roads and yet reducing this is a massive topic and constantly in the news with huge resources dedicated to it every year.

We've been told back in June by CMO that there will be no excess deaths this year.

Just like there ll be no excess deaths in Sweden this year.

Morale of the story? Same amount of people will die as in 2019, but in addition to their death they've had a positive PCR test result.

Grant Billions Bifocals

Grant Billions Bifocals wrote: »

It would be laughable were it not so disgusting how 2k deaths additional deaths are acceptable just because 30k people die per year in the country. How does someone have that mentality.

There is only a small fraction of the numbers killed by covid killed on the roads and yet reducing this is a massive topic and constantly in the news with huge resources dedicated to it every year.

They are not additional deaths.
Most of those that died would have died very soon anyways.

Most of the deaths were simply too old and sick to go to hospital/ICU.

In the over 65 category there was 1658 deaths. Only 164 in that category went to ICU.

hynesie08

Grant Billions Bifocals wrote: »

It would be laughable were it not so disgusting how 2k deaths additional deaths are acceptable just because 30k people die per year in the country. How does someone have that mentality.

There is only a small fraction of the numbers killed by covid killed on the roads and yet reducing this is a massive topic and constantly in the news with huge resources dedicated to it every year.

Fantastic example nox, there are hundreds of avoidable deaths caused by cars, and yet instead of removing cars, we implement measures to educate and inform so that we can minimise those numbers, but you'll always have a few who think the rules don't apply and basically do what they want........

Covid is the same, we can't have zero deaths, so we need to make sure that people have the best odds and punish those who ignore regulations, all while living our lives.