How will schools be able to go back in September?

seamus · 19-06-2020 09:39AM

Murple wrote: »

Could you please explain how you would envisage a 'pod' system working in a primary school?

Teacher (and TAs/SNAs) operate completely within the confines of their class and do not mix with any other classes.
Put in place various protocols to avoid mixing, such as;

- One-way systems around the school
- Staggered start/end times to prevent parents from having to mix
- Staggered yard times so that the yard is only in use by one class at a time.
- Teachers eat lunch with the kids, in the classroom. It's not a long work day, there is no need for the teacher to leave the room for lunch.
- If the teacher calls in sick, or an SNA does and there is not enough help, the whole class stays at home that day.

Anything else can be worked around.

s1ippy · 19-06-2020 09:49AM

mcsean2163 wrote: »

The WHO issued a statement saying asymptomatic transmission rare. I don't know why you're bringing it up.

You are ABSOLUTELY WRONG ABOUT THAT.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/09/who-comments-asymptomatic-spread-covid-19/

ALTHOUGH you could be forgiven, because they DID say what you're asserting, but they clarified later that they were saying that very few people who have the virus NEVER develop symptoms. On a sliding scale everyone's survival rate drops to zero, that kind of thing.

I actually submitted a complaint about this dangerous misinformation spree they went on. The clarity and accuracy of the information in this pandemic is life and death, so having people incorrectly believe there's little to no asymptomatic transmission when they mean that people WILL go on to develop symptoms but they can be contagious when they're PRESYMPTOMATIC is so fúcking dangerous and irresponsible. It WILL AND probably HAS ALREADY cost lives.

https://www.euro.who.int/en/about-us/contact-us

Submit a complaint to them above if you feel the same way, it probably won't do any good but they need to hear that people want them to be held accountable for their dangerous and spurious claims which they immediately retract less publicly and clearly to no avail.

For all the martyrs in here who are losing their minds that their children are falling behind,
[url]Https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/less-school-and-more-play-has-benefits-for-children-study-finds-1.4281718?mode=amp[/url]

You're probably doing fine. It is children from disadvantaged households who are at risk of serious harm, not just forgetting their tables but seeing much more awful sh!t a lot more regularly with no hope of escape.

Hopefully their schools will have summer programmes set up for those pupils. Our local special school caters to students with behavioural issues and ASD. They have provision for a couple of very small classes, about 45 students with 7 teachers and 15 SNAs.

So don't worry, they are putting plans in place for the ones who really really need it the most. The rest can attend summer camps etc and hopefully by September the prevalence of this will be much lower and classrooms will be made safer places to be for everyone with the right measures in place.

Boggles · 19-06-2020 10:26AM

The WHO are finished as any sort of authority on this pandemic.

The vast majority of countries are giving them the occasional polite nod, but by and large they are trusting in their own public health and actual science and completely ignoring them.

tscul32 · 19-06-2020 10:29AM

seamus wrote: »

Teacher (and TAs/SNAs) operate completely within the confines of their class and do not mix with any other classes.
Put in place various protocols to avoid mixing, such as;

- One-way systems around the school
- Staggered start/end times to prevent parents from having to mix
- Staggered yard times so that the yard is only in use by one class at a time.
- Teachers eat lunch with the kids, in the classroom. It's not a long work day, there is no need for the teacher to leave the room for lunch.
- If the teacher calls in sick, or an SNA does and there is not enough help, the whole class stays at home that day.

Anything else can be worked around.

- you can't walk one way around my kids schools, all cul de sacs
- you'll end up with patents of multiple kids hanging round with some of the kids, waiting for the others
- our school has 24 classes (and it's just JI - 2nd) so one class at a time in yard isn't really feasible
- the lunch thing could work but I 'd find it difficult to spend 5 hours in a room with my own 3 kids without a break, let alone 30 kids.
- I'm not sure 30 employers would be on board with employees not showing up cos an SNA was sick and they had to stay home with their kids.

Don't get me wrong, we do have to keep thinking of ideas and maybe eventually we'll have some workable guidelines. But all schools are different sizes, demographs, there are some awesome teachers and principals (I'm very happy with the schools my kids are in) and there are some who fall below the ideal. But getting some concrete guidelines from the DES would go a long way.

jrosen · 19-06-2020 10:41AM

I dont think kids should go back but I do think the plans need to be made now for September. Otherwise there will be plenty of shoulder shrugging come a return to school date.

Murple · 19-06-2020 10:42AM

seamus wrote: »

Teacher (and TAs/SNAs) operate completely within the confines of their class and do not mix with any other classes.
Put in place various protocols to avoid mixing, such as;

- One-way systems around the school
- Staggered start/end times to prevent parents from having to mix
- Staggered yard times so that the yard is only in use by one class at a time.
- Teachers eat lunch with the kids, in the classroom. It's not a long work day, there is no need for the teacher to leave the room for lunch.
- If the teacher calls in sick, or an SNA does and there is not enough help, the whole class stays at home that day.

Anything else can be worked around.

A pod system may work in a Crèche setting where there are 6 children with one adult but to try an implement the same in a primary school would be impractical and unworkable. Consider the following:

A one way system only works where there is a circuit to follow. My school is not built in this way. It is linear with some classrooms opening off a single corridor and other classrooms adjoining each other.

Staying in the confines of their class and not mixing with other classes only works where each class has ensuite toilets. In my school, 3/4 of classrooms share their toilets with at least one other class. There is unavoidable mixing.

Staggered start/finish times would cause a logistical nightmare in any school bigger that a single stream. My school would need 16 start times and 16 finish times We're not far from a school that would need 24.

Asking the teacher to stay in the room and not get any break whatsoever day after day is quite simply unreasonable. When would they use the toilet? If the teacher has medication to take, you expect that to happen in front of the class? Saying that it's not a long day is so dismissive. The 6 hours you are face to face with a class are very intense and require high levels of energy and enthusiasm. Plus every worker has statutory entitlements to breaks and don't for one second think that eating lunch with the class would be getting a break.

Anything else can be worked around?
How would you sort things like shared educational equipment. We don't have enough for every class so it's shared between each class level- maths equipment, levelled readers, construction materials etc. They are used on a near daily basis, particularly readers.
How do you sort support teaching? Each support teacher works with a number of children, up to 20-30, taken from a number of classes and may work with 1 child or with a group. Would no child get any support teaching then? What about the child who needs the break from the classroom environment as being in a room with 28 other children is too difficult? Or the children with specific learning difficulties who will struggle with the pace of a normal classroom?
How do you sort staggered drop off and collection so no classes mix but where some parents may need to collect children from 3 different class levels?

Pod systems can work in a creche as each creche is significantly smaller than a primary school. The pod size is much smaller. Children are dropped off and collected at different times anyway so there isn't 300 or 400 to be collected at one time. There is a much smaller chance of there being siblings of different ages and consequently in different pods in a creche environment than in a primary school. There also isn't the need for support teachers moving between pods each day.

jrosen · 19-06-2020 10:46AM

Murple wrote: »

A pod system may work in a Crèche setting where there are 6 children with one adult but to try an implement the same in a primary school would be impractical and unworkable. Consider the following:

A one way system only works where there is a circuit to follow. My school is not built in this way. It is linear with some classrooms opening off a single corridor and other classrooms adjoining each other.

Staying in the confines of their class and not mixing with other classes only works where each class has ensuite toilets. In my school, 3/4 of classrooms share their toilets with at least one other class. There is unavoidable mixing.

Staggered start/finish times would cause a logistical nightmare in any school bigger that a single stream. My school would need 16 start times and 16 finish times We're not far from a school that would need 24.

Asking the teacher to stay in the room and not get any break whatsoever day after day is quite simply unreasonable. When would they use the toilet? If the teacher has medication to take, you expect that to happen in front of the class? Saying that it's not a long day is so dismissive. The 6 hours you are face to face with a class are very intense and require high levels of energy and enthusiasm. Plus every worker has statutory entitlements to breaks and don't for one second think that eating lunch with the class would be getting a break.

Anything else can be worked around?
How would you sort things like shared educational equipment. We don't have enough for every class so it's shared between each class level- maths equipment, levelled readers, construction materials etc. They are used on a near daily basis, particularly readers.
How do you sort support teaching? Each support teacher works with a number of children, up to 20-30, taken from a number of classes and may work with 1 child or with a group. Would no child get any support teaching then? What about the child who needs the break from the classroom environment as being in a room with 28 other children is too difficult? Or the children with specific learning difficulties who will struggle with the pace of a normal classroom?
How do you sort staggered drop off and collection so no classes mix but where some parents may need to collect children from 3 different class levels?

Pod systems can work in a creche as each creche is significantly smaller than a primary school. The pod size is much smaller. Children are dropped off and collected at different times anyway so there isn't 300 or 400 to be collected at one time. There is a much smaller chance of there being siblings of different ages and consequently in different pods in a creche environment than in a primary school. There also isn't the need for support teachers moving between pods each day.

Our local school is actually a new enough building with a car park. We could comfortably manage staggered start times, one way system, toilets are in each class room. As is all the students bits and bobs plus coat hanging space.

Where I work all the local schools do staggered start times and have been for years. Works a treat.

Maybe schools will need to assessed individually and cleared to return on that basis. Which would mean planning over the summer holidays

seamus · 19-06-2020 10:51AM

tscul32 wrote: »

- you can't walk one way around my kids schools, all cul de sacs

That surprises me a lot, given fire regulations. Nevertheless, there are ways to make it work by ensuring that no more than one class is in the corridor at a time.

you'll end up with patents of multiple kids hanging round with some of the kids, waiting for the others

Sure. But that's better than the parents of fifty kids all huddled around outside a door waiting for the class to come out.

- our school has 24 classes (and it's just JI - 2nd) so one class at a time in yard isn't really feasible

Again, there are ways to make it work. Our school has 30 classes, two official yard spaces and access to a large car park, and a large field. These spaces could be split into two each with a barrier between them, giving 8 spaces. Stagger the yard times and it can work. I know different schools have different facilities, but it can work. If you assume a 30 minute yard time with a fifteen minute changeover period, then that's seven possible yard periods in a given day. That might mean some classes go out to yard at 9:30 in the morning, but no measure should be off the table.

- the lunch thing could work but I 'd find it difficult to spend 5 hours in a room with my own 3 kids without a break, let alone 30 kids.

I do appreciate that, but these are not ordinary times and I'm not proposing these measures as permanent solutions.

- I'm not sure 30 employers would be on board with employees not showing up cos an SNA was sick and they had to stay home with their kids.

They'll have to be. Just like they'll have to accept an employee staying at home because he woke up with a runny nose.
We will need lots of legislation to ensure employer compliance with public health measures. This will have to include the right to sick leave when a child is sick or when a child cannot go to school due to a public health issue - like a sick teacher.
Our public health policies around children in particular, assume that there is always someone available to mind a child in virtually any circumstances. This is not the case anymore. Grandparents, aunts/uncles or friends are no longer available to mind children at short notice.

Force Majeure leave is very limited in when you can avail of it and how much you can take. It needs to be expanded to be unlimited and available in circumstances where you have a child or vulnerable person who needs to be cared for.

Boggles · 19-06-2020 11:00AM

seamus wrote: »

That surprises me a lot,

It shouldn't.

Dept of Education refuses to release results of fire safety assessments at schools

17 additional school buildings found with structural defects

iamwhoiam · 19-06-2020 11:05AM

downthemiddle wrote: »

You can say it as often as you like but schools will not be reopening until September. The function of schools is not to provide childcare.

The function of schools is to educate first and foremost .Staff will need to work around difficulties eventually just as most workers did . Be that September or August it is now that the guidelines must be put in place and school staff actively working on solutions . That is how the country will function and everyone need to work on solution and not just see the hurdles

And I think it is naive to say that schools are not providers of child care , while it is not their primary function very often one parent will use the school calender to work around and go to work .I knew many nurses who did night duty and used school time to sleep ,Gardai the same . In fact clearly teachers also use school to look after their kids to be able to teach their own class .It is naive to think that teachers or parents can return to work without a clear indication of school being open to their children .

Its not teachers fault that the DoE have not foreseen the obstacles and use the time wisely to find the solutions .In fact the Government opened up the country and told people to get back to work with no clue who was going to mind children
All around me in my area I now see grandparents minding two or three children as there simply was no alternative and someone has to mind them .
The DoE and the Unions need to step up and sort this asap as it is vital for many reasons to get children back into schools and the vulnerable back into their support system

khalessi · 19-06-2020 11:19AM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

The function of schools is to educate first and foremost .Staff will need to work around difficulties eventually just as most workers did . Be that September or August it is now that the guidelines must be put in place and school staff actively working on solutions . That is how the country will function and everyone need to work on solution and not just see the hurdles

And I think it is naive to say that schools are not providers of child care , while it is not their primary function very often one parent will use the school calender to work around and go to work .I knew many nurses who did night duty and used school time to sleep ,Gardai the same . In fact clearly teachers also use school to look after their kids to be able to teach their own class .It is naive to think that teachers or parents can return to work without a clear indication of school being open to their children .

Its not teachers fault that the DoE have not foreseen the obstacles and use the time wisely to find the solutions .In fact the Government opened up the country and told people to get back to work with no clue who was going to mind children
All around me in my area I now see grandparents minding two or three children as there simply was no alternative and someone has to mind them .
The DoE and the Unions need to step up and sort this asap as it is vital for many reasons to get children back into schools and the vulnerable back into their support system

Most staff who worked through this did so with some form of protection or ppe as we all know, whether it was the use of social distancing or ppe or restricting numbers in shops.

It is not good enough to say get on with it, as schools are proving inconvenient to plan for, we are told on the one hand that the virus is gone get on with it or work arounf the difficulties, why are teachers so special etc., and on the otherhand we are being told we have to live with it, that there could be localised shutdowns. So which is it?

We are also told there could be a second wave, that surely should be planned for. July provision is aparently taking place without any guidelines from the Department meanwhile anyone else working has special provisions in place and pubs have guidelines issued and changed according to pressure from the media. Priorities ehhh!!!

Teachers will be the ones people focus on to blame when July provision does not work out instead of the Department and their soundbite of bespoke solutions.

dalyboy · 19-06-2020 11:24AM

Ive a tip for the DOE. It’s really very simple. Go to Denmark and copy and paste their education model. It’s been 2 months since the schools reopened their doors and it’s all going well. If teachers etc are unwilling to return having adopted the exact Denmark model issue them with their P45’s and hire replacements. There is no reason for discussion or panic etc , just get on with it.

Boggles · 19-06-2020 11:29AM

dalyboy wrote: »

Ive a tip for the DOE. It’s really very simple. Go to Denmark and copy and paste their education model. It’s been 2 months since the schools reopened their doors and it’s all going well. If teachers etc are unwilling to return having adopted the exact Denmark model issue them with their P45’s and hire replacements. There is no reason for discussion or panic etc , just get on with it.

Sure while we at it we should just copy and paste their health system, transport system and social systems.

Simply enough to have all that ready for September I reckon.

Deeec · 19-06-2020 11:31AM

I dont think there is any solution that will work. Im losing patience - Every suggestion seems to be shot down. I now believe the following is the best solution for all:

- No schools open in September - contrary to popular belief within the teaching profession parents do not need teachers for childcare
- No formal homeschooling - Parents can homeschool at their discretion and pace
- All teachers will be placed on the covid payment of €350 per week from 1st September ( this could be €204 per week from September)
- All teachers to cocoon because they seem to be at greater risk than nurses, doctors, childcare workers, retail staff etc
- When teachers and Unions decide it is safe to open the schools to full capacity we will gladly resume as normal

The_Honeybadger · 19-06-2020 11:33AM

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

Don't remember being in a pharmacy without perpex with 20 to 30 kids for 6 hours a day recently.......not the same working in pharmacy for short bursts of interactions through perspex with a handful of coworkers. Maybe it was hard to keep 2m apart every minute of the day with your few coworkers but it is not the same thing as 28 kids squashed in a room all day for 6 hours daily and no hygiene facilities. I wish people in jobs like these would stop claiming they were in the same boat. Yes it was tough working during the worst stage of the lockdown but the reason you could is because your jobs are also low contact jobs that were considered safe. As this goes on you will actually be the lucky ones being able to work in low contact jobs. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a mass exodus from jobs like teaching and other high contact jobs. If this is the level of respect they get they would be better off changing roles rather than sticking with high risk roles and zero respect in unsafe conditions which is what seems to be being proposed by many (not all) posters.

I’m not a teacher but I completely agree. I have two daughters in primary school. Up to thirty in the class, tiny classrooms, no ventilation, one of my daughters was in a classroom that had been converted from an old storage room as they had run out of space and numbers keep increasing. The vast majority of workplaces are simply not comparable in any way, shape or form. I feel for teachers who bizarrely are being painted as the bad guys by some. If I was a teacher with an underlying health condition I would be very concerned quite frankly.

I realise kids need to get back in to education but it needs to be done safely. By all accounts the DES guidance has been appalling but to be fair to them it is a tremendously difficult task and the public health advice seems to be very fluid so making firm decisions now for September is no easy. I’m not sure what the level of dialogue is between the HSE and DES but there should be a whole team working on guidance for schools.

19-06-2020 11:45AM

Murple wrote: »

A pod system may work in a Crèche setting where there are 6 children with one adult but to try an implement the same in a primary school would be impractical and unworkable. Consider the following:

A one way system only works where there is a circuit to follow. My school is not built in this way. It is linear with some classrooms opening off a single corridor and other classrooms adjoining each other.

Staying in the confines of their class and not mixing with other classes only works where each class has ensuite toilets. In my school, 3/4 of classrooms share their toilets with at least one other class. There is unavoidable mixing.

Staggered start/finish times would cause a logistical nightmare in any school bigger that a single stream. My school would need 16 start times and 16 finish times We're not far from a school that would need 24.

Asking the teacher to stay in the room and not get any break whatsoever day after day is quite simply unreasonable. When would they use the toilet? If the teacher has medication to take, you expect that to happen in front of the class? Saying that it's not a long day is so dismissive. The 6 hours you are face to face with a class are very intense and require high levels of energy and enthusiasm. Plus every worker has statutory entitlements to breaks and don't for one second think that eating lunch with the class would be getting a break.

Anything else can be worked around?
How would you sort things like shared educational equipment. We don't have enough for every class so it's shared between each class level- maths equipment, levelled readers, construction materials etc. They are used on a near daily basis, particularly readers.
How do you sort support teaching? Each support teacher works with a number of children, up to 20-30, taken from a number of classes and may work with 1 child or with a group. Would no child get any support teaching then? What about the child who needs the break from the classroom environment as being in a room with 28 other children is too difficult? Or the children with specific learning difficulties who will struggle with the pace of a normal classroom?
How do you sort staggered drop off and collection so no classes mix but where some parents may need to collect children from 3 different class levels?

Pod systems can work in a creche as each creche is significantly smaller than a primary school. The pod size is much smaller. Children are dropped off and collected at different times anyway so there isn't 300 or 400 to be collected at one time. There is a much smaller chance of there being siblings of different ages and consequently in different pods in a creche environment than in a primary school. There also isn't the need for support teachers moving between pods each day.

It's not fair on the kids to not be taught in school. There is an element of risk in working in a public facing job. I can't exactly decide to WFH etc. in a hospital. If people in hospital can work through COVID-19. There is no reason that teachers can't gop back to school in September (given all appropriate risk reduction steps have been taken).

dalyboy · 19-06-2020 11:48AM

Boggles wrote: »

Sure while we at it we should just copy and paste their health system, transport system and social systems.

Simply enough to have all that ready for September I reckon.

No actually , we can forget about the red herring examples you mentioned. No need to copy anything else but the school system in order to get the schools open and functional.

seamus · 19-06-2020 11:54AM

Murple wrote: »

Consider the following:

With respect, you're pointing out issues that are not insurmountable.

You're also trying to achieve a perfect solution where one is not required. All we need right now is an optimal solution; the one that gets the most kids back to school in the safest way possible.

Issues of ingress/egress, toilets and shared equipment can be solved by throwing money at it. Knock holes in walls, erect portacabins outside, buy tonnes of equipment.

The support teacher system can be abandoned for a year or adjusted to be a remote solution. Ten kids not having access to a support teacher for a year is better than 100 kids not attending school at all. Likewise, kids who need a break or otherwise have special needs that can't be met in a pod, might have to just not go to school at all. Again, a couple of kids staying at home is better than all kids staying at home. Sucks, but this is a pandemic. We will have to do our best to not sacrifice them, but we cannot dismiss solutions out of hand because they don't work for all kids. It's an extraordinary time, some people are going to be left behind.

Some parents having to hang around for a couple of drop-offs is not perfect, but it's better than all parents hanging around at the same time. Optimal solutions, not perfect ones.

As said above, every school will need to assess their ability to meet the plan, and then will need access to the funding to do whatever it takes. But the most important thing is time. We need a plan, and we need it now. Then schools will have time to figure out how to make it work and get the funding to make it work.

khalessi · 19-06-2020 11:58AM

seamus wrote: »

With respect, you're pointing out issues that are not insurmountable.

You're also trying to achieve a perfect solution where one is not required. All we need right now is an optimal solution; the one that gets the most kids back to school in the safest way possible.

Issues of ingress/egress, toilets and shared equipment can be solved by throwing money at it. Knock holes in walls, erect portacabins outside, buy tonnes of equipment.

The support teacher system can be abandoned for a year or adjusted to be a remote solution. Ten kids not having access to a support teacher for a year is better than 100 kids not attending school at all. Likewise, kids who need a break or otherwise have special needs that can't be met in a pod, might have to just not go to school at all. Again, a couple of kids staying at home is better than all kids staying at home. Sucks, but this is a pandemic. We will have to do our best to not sacrifice them, but we cannot dismiss solutions out of hand because they don't work for all kids. It's an extraordinary time, some people are going to be left behind.

Some parents having to hang around for a couple of drop-offs is not perfect, but it's better than all parents hanging around at the same time. Optimal solutions, not perfect ones.

As said above, every school will need to assess their ability to meet the plan, and then will need access to the funding to do whatever it takes. But the most important thing is time. We need a plan, and we need it now. Then schools will have time to figure out how to make it work and get the funding to make it work.

WIth all due respect the Department didnt want to buy us hand sanitizer so the idea that they will throw money at it is laughable. In the best of times we use voluntary funds for toilet paper and if they werre to as you suggest knock holes in walls etc, they should have started by now and would by now have mentioned this as their intention, it isnt like they havent opportunities to make announcements to the media

As a teacher and parent of a child who uses the learning support teacher, in the best of times they suffer lets not make it any worse. It is possible LS teachers might be needed for sick cover but those children are most in need of all re education

Boggles · 19-06-2020 12:00PM

dalyboy wrote: »

No actually , we can forget about the red herring examples you mentioned. No need to copy anything else but the school system in order to get the schools open and functional.

How can we copy and paste their pupil to teacher ratio by September?

You need classrooms to house them, do you think we could embark on a multi billion capital investment project and have it completed in 2 months?

Stop talking absolute nonsense.

the corpo · 19-06-2020 12:00PM

seamus wrote: »

Issues of ingress/egress, toilets and shared equipment can be solved by throwing money at it. Knock holes in walls, erect portacabins outside, buy tonnes of equipment.

Didn't McHugh say there would be zero financial provision for anything like portacabins?

Also, what's the breakdown of schools in terms of new build and bockety old buildings. Most office space is required to have reasonable ventilation, I would image most schools fail to meet any such standards by a long shot, and they're expected to cram in occupancy.

I've no idea what the solution is, but I don't think people can reasonably base expectations on school return on what other environments are implementing, the use case is massively different.

seamus · 19-06-2020 12:05PM

khalessi wrote: »

WIth all due respect the Department didnt want to buy us hand sanitizer so the idea that they will throw money at it is laughable. In the best of times we use voluntary funds for toilet paper and if they werre to as you suggest knock holes in walls etc, they should have started by now and would by now have mentioned this as their intention, it isnt like they havent opportunities to make announcements to the media

As a teacher and parent of a child who uses the learning support teacher, in the best of times they suffer lets not make it any worse. It is possible LS teachers might be needed for sick cover but those children are most in need of all re education

Now you're going back to my post yesterday. They won't make any announcements that are in any way in conflict with NPHET because the Teachers' unions will lose their mind.

The money will be forthcoming because the plan can't work without it. €5bn in capital funding will go a long way in the education system, and at the moment we're borrowing hand over fist, so it's not a huge amount in the grand scheme.
The effort to make some small structural changes is relatively small. There's plenty of time now, but there won't be in 6 weeks time.

You're not pointing out any reason this can't work, you're just firing out cynicism with no effort to consider solutions.

the corpo wrote: »

Didn't McHugh say there would be zero financial provision for anything like portacabins?

I don't know if he did, but if he wants to achieve his plan of a full return, then he's going to need a blank cheque from the DoF.

thomasdylan · 19-06-2020 12:10PM

I do feel some sympathy for teachers on the lack of guidance so far. People will remember things like ASTI saying "No teacher will be required to do anything" and think that is the attitude being shown when it mightent be the case.

I think there are some people here who don't really understand the PPE that is being used in hospital and the purpose of it. Surgical masks are primarily being worn to prevent healthcare workers from transmitting the virus to patients.

khalessi · 19-06-2020 12:25PM

seamus wrote: »

Now you're going back to my post yesterday. They won't make any announcements that are in any way in conflict with NPHET because the Teachers' unions will lose their mind.

The money will be forthcoming because the plan can't work without it. €5bn in capital funding will go a long way in the education system, and at the moment we're borrowing hand over fist, so it's not a huge amount in the grand scheme.
The effort to make some small structural changes is relatively small. There's plenty of time now, but there won't be in 6 weeks time.

You're not pointing out any reason this can't work, you're just firing out cynicism with no effort to consider solutions.

I don't know if he did, but if he wants to achieve his plan of a full return, then he's going to need a blank cheque from the DoF.

With all due respect myself and other teachers on this site have offered solutions since March on this and many other threads while getting slagged called lazy and thats the polite stuff. We can't do anything official regardlesss of what we suggest without Department guidelines. Bureauracy!

McHugh has said in the Dail there is no money and you saying it will be provided doesn't make it so. I don;t have any experience working in the lets say the building trade, so I dont offfer advice there how to deal with situations but I do know what it is like to deal the Department as a teacher and as a parent of a child with needs and it isnt good.

People like yourself tell me and other teachers we are cynics maybe we are just tired of being slagged off as negative when we know what it is like trying to scrounge funds from the Department while dealing with people who just think have no idea of how schools work. I have offered multiple solutions since March but all require signing off from the department and money, despite what they have promised to date all they have done is offer to buy soap. No guidelines have been issued but lovely news articles referring to bespoke solutions.

I want to be back in September as it is a better way of teaching.

KildareP · 19-06-2020 12:32PM

seamus wrote: »

Now you're going back to my post yesterday. They won't make any announcements that are in any way in conflict with NPHET because the Teachers' unions will lose their mind.

The money will be forthcoming because the plan can't work without it. €5bn in capital funding will go a long way in the education system, and at the moment we're borrowing hand over fist, so it's not a huge amount in the grand scheme.
The effort to make some small structural changes is relatively small. There's plenty of time now, but there won't be in 6 weeks time.

You're not pointing out any reason this can't work, you're just firing out cynicism with no effort to consider solutions.

I don't know if he did, but if he wants to achieve his plan of a full return, then he's going to need a blank cheque from the DoF.

The money won't be forthcoming from the government for the simple reason the government don't own most of the school buildings in this country, the Catholic Church do. Imagine the reaction to an announcement that the state is going to hand the Catholic Church nearly €5bn in cash for capital investments?

The money won't be forthcoming from the Catholic Church either because it's in dire financial straits itself. I imagine it would love nothing more than to be able to divest itself of many of those school buildings.

It's not going to happen.

(And even if it did - you can't ring up your local builder and ask them to start first thing Monday, it has to be tendered for.)

Mrsmum · 19-06-2020 12:34PM

Deeec wrote: »

I dont think there is any solution that will work. Im losing patience - Every suggestion seems to be shot down. I now believe the following is the best solution for all:

- No schools open in September - contrary to popular belief within the teaching profession parents do not need teachers for childcare
- No formal homeschooling - Parents can homeschool at their discretion and pace
- All teachers will be placed on the covid payment of €350 per week from 1st September ( this could be €204 per week from September)
- All teachers to cocoon because they seem to be at greater risk than nurses, doctors, childcare workers, retail staff etc
- When teachers and Unions decide it is safe to open the schools to full capacity we will gladly resume as normal

I totally get your frustration. Every single suggestion is shot down as unworkable to the point where you just think there just won't be any school in Sept. What other conclusion could you come to reading this thread.

Personally I think put a perspex glass around every teacher's desk, tell the teachers to stay behind it. Canister of sanitizing fluid on every desk, ordered queues entering and leaving like outside IKEA, if teacher needs to leave class s/he calls on newly appointed support staff to cover, staggered breaks. No perfect solutions but then children at home hardly perfect or anywhere near anyway.

downthemiddle · 19-06-2020 12:56PM

jrosen wrote: »

I dont think kids should go back but I do think the plans need to be made now for September. Otherwise there will be plenty of shoulder shrugging come a return to school date.

Rest assured that schools are already planning for September. The vast majority of principals do not trust the DES to produce a viable plan and many already have their plans in place for September. The figures that Joe McHugh produced last week about numbers that could be catered, for under various forms of social distancing, were no surprise to any principal who had done their homework.
I really don't understand why this thread has gained so much traction. Every teacher who has posted has said they want to return to school in September. The only condition they are attaching is that they want reason precautions to be taken. The General Secretary of the INTO has stated on national television that teachers want schools to reopen.
The sole purpose of this thread now appears to be for certain posters to throw subtle, and not so subtle, digs at teachers. Their trolling results in teachers responding and then we go around in circles again.
Schools will reopen for the new school year, not before then.

Boggles · 19-06-2020 01:04PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

I totally get your frustration. Every single suggestion is shot down as unworkable to the point where you just think there just won't be any school in Sept. What other conclusion could you come to reading this thread.

Personally I think put a perspex glass around every teacher's desk, tell the teachers to stay behind it. Canister of sanitizing fluid on every desk, ordered queues entering and leaving like outside IKEA, if teacher needs to leave class s/he calls on newly appointed support staff to cover, staggered breaks. No perfect solutions but then children at home hardly perfect or anywhere near anyway.

"Personally" what you have done is just taken what they do in IKEA and say "do that in schools, be grand".

:pac:

Mrsmum · 19-06-2020 01:11PM

Boggles wrote: »

"Personally" what you have done is just taken what they do in IKEA and say "do that in schools, be grand".

:pac:

Actually I think I'd trust them better, bet if you put the management of IKEA in charge of our schools, they'd have everything ship shape quick smart !

:pac:

iamwhoiam · 19-06-2020 01:14PM

downthemiddle wrote: »

Rest assured that schools are already planning for September. The vast majority of principals do not trust the DES to produce a viable plan and many already have their plans in place for September. The figures that Joe McHugh produced last week about numbers that could be catered, for under various forms of social distancing, were no surprise to any principal who had done their homework.
I really don't understand why this thread has gained so much traction. Every teacher who has posted has said they want to return to school in September. The only condition they are attaching is that they want reason precautions to be taken. The General Secretary of the INTO has stated on national television that teachers want schools to reopen.
The sole purpose of this thread now appears to be for certain posters to throw subtle, and not so subtle, digs at teachers. Their trolling results in teachers responding and then we go around in circles again.
Schools will reopen for the new school year, not before then.

I am not a parent of a school going child but I totally understand the frustration of parents reading this thread .Every suggestion is shot down eventually , parents are desperate and its never acknowledged that they are anxious and frustrated .Some posters put down parents at every opportunity and we hear how some parents don't engage etc .etc . While their are digs at teachers on the thread there are also digs at parents .

Rarely if ever on the thread do your read about how parents struggled yet found time to do homework and try to find the time to help the children manage . I dont think I saw any post that acknowledged the huge effort put in by parents to try their best to step up to do something they were not trained to do
Parents all over the country struggled working from home or doing opposite shift , with babies to mind and some with other kids with special needs etc ,
My full respect goes to parents who did their very best and to teachers who also tried their hardest to keep our kids educated .

The DoE has to step up and the Unions have to engage and see solutions and not obstacles and the parents have to be on board and also step up to a changed world
But most importantly and top of the list is the children , they deserve a concerted effort from all adults involved who must strive to see solutions and surmount obstacles .Because the children deserve it .

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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