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How will schools be able to go back in September?

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Comments

  • #3932
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,539 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    mcsean2163 wrote: »
    Doesn't the influenza virus recede in the summer months?

    The Flu is "seasonal". We also have effective treatments and the occasional workable vaccine for it. Covid 19 is not the flu.

    It is surging in 9 states in the USA who have temperatures that will frequently hit the 30s this week.

    Fine weather is a blessing, because more people go outside, 18 times less likely to get infected outside apparently.

    The flip side of that though, is if gets too hot, it will force people inside to take advantage of air conditioning.


  • #3933
    Treppen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,734 ✭✭✭Treppen


    If people could stop saying that 'the risk to kids is low' that'd be great.

    It's about carrying the virus and transmitting it on, that's the big issue. Hence why schools were closed again in China... even though the 'risk to kids is low'.


  • #3934
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Treppen wrote: »
    If people could stop saying that 'the risk to kids is low' that'd be great.

    It's about carrying the virus and transmitting it on, that's the big issue. Hence why schools were closed again in China... even though the 'risk to kids is low'.

    And again there is very little evidence kids are transmitting virus in any significant way. And as fars as I know China closed schools in Beijing not the whole country.

    It's reasonable to expect in future response will be more localised and dealt with aggressive contact tracing and local quarantine. I know examples in another country where a class and the teacher was quarantined for 2 weeks and the rest of school continued as normal.


  • #3935
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,445 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    meeeeh wrote: »
    And again there is very little evidence kids are transmitting virus in any significant way. And as fars as I know China closed schools in Beijing not the whole country.

    It's reasonable to expect in future response will be more localised and dealt with aggressive contact tracing and local quarantine. I know examples in another country where a class and the teacher was quarantined for 2 weeks and the rest of school continued as normal.

    What country was that in?


  • #3936
    jrosen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭jrosen


    khalessi wrote: »
    Do you know what amazes me.

    That there is a discussion going on about the 1 hr 45 minutes time limit for pubs being discussed on another thread and that the document is unworkable. The discussion is fine but the fact that pubs got a document issued over schools!!!!

    Someone took the time to issue a document on pubs and we couldnt get any suggestions from the Department who have had since March to think about this.

    I think that is so sad. Pubs are more important than education it seems. Education is necessary pubs are entertainment and they have gotten more attention from our government.
    But it is ok we got soap

    I think when money is on the line there will always be a workable solution because there is a vested interest.


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  • #3937
    jrosen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭jrosen


    lulublue22 wrote: »
    That’s great that you are in such a position. There are many children who are not - those children are as much entitled to an education as any other child. The dep needs to issue clear guidelines which outlines procedures to be followed in relation to children and staff who may be adversely affected by covid19.

    As parents we all have to decide what we feel is an acceptable level of risk. I have no issues with my kids returning to school full time, if as a parent you choose otherwise then you should be supported in your decision to keep your child at home.


  • #3938
    firemansam4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    Treppen wrote:
    If people could stop saying that 'the risk to kids is low' that'd be great.

    It's about carrying the virus and transmitting it on, that's the big issue. Hence why schools were closed again in China... even though the 'risk to kids is low'.

    I am one of the posters who have said this - and it's in response to people saying things like we are putting children in danger sending them back to school full time.

    I've acknowledged that the biggest risk is passing on the disease to people more vulnerable.


  • #3939
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Treppen wrote: »
    If people could stop saying that 'the risk to kids is low' that'd be great.

    It's about carrying the virus and transmitting it on, that's the big issue. Hence why schools were closed again in China... even though the 'risk to kids is low'.
    The most recent data suggests that children are not carriers or transmitters to the same extent that adults are.

    This would tally with the data that also says that people who are asymptomatic do not spread the infection. People who are pre-symptomatic are the biggest carriers.

    And since children are far more likely to be asymptomatic, then it stands to reason that they present a far lower risk of infection spread than adults.

    The primary issue here is that NPHET do not want to say anything about reducing social distancing. NPHET are taking an overly cautious approach.

    The government will want to organise schools in such a way that children are organised into pods with no social distancing.

    However the teachers' unions will not accept any solution that has not been approved by NPHET.

    This is the standoff. Primary schools are going to have to go back in September, into full classrooms, isolated from other classes. There is no other solution that will work.
    So either NPHET is going to have to explicitly endorse the "pod" concept, or teachers' unions are going to have to accept that NPHET is an advisory body who are not in charge and follow the instructions of the DoE.


  • #3940
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    What country was that in?

    Slovenija. In one case a parent returned from Russia and one of the kids got infected. The class was in 2 week quarantine but as far as I know infections didn't go any further. Similarly in another case but in that area there are a few more infections and I don't know if they are connected to that case or separate imports (mostly it is people who were visiting relatives in Balkan countries).


  • #3941
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    meeeeh wrote: »
    And again there is very little evidence kids are transmitting virus in any significant way. And as fars as I know China closed schools in Beijing not the whole country.

    It's reasonable to expect in future response will be more localised and dealt with aggressive contact tracing and local quarantine. I know examples in another country where a class and the teacher was quarantined for 2 weeks and the rest of school continued as normal.

    I think this is the way we will end up going, with localised closures but we should not outrule children as spreaders as there have been a number of breakouts in schools in different countries, so there should be some measures in place apart from "Yayyyyy we were given soap".

    Obviously 2 metres will not work but it is important that certain protocols are implemented to prevent spread as education is important but so is maintaing a safe environment for everyone. I dont see why PPE such as masks are not encouraged even just for staff and students if they choose can wear them, like children do in other countries.

    I was told the other day masks could be scary but when I offered to wear the ones I bought that wasnt a problem so the issue there is expense, the Department dont want to be buying masks for staff and students as it will be expensive and there the subtext of responsibility. I have masks with cartoons on them and funny ones that will make kids laugh and the older ones groan as they will think lame lol.

    Vunerable children need socialisation too. I have a relative with CF who is old enough to know consequences of infection and her school will be implenting desks at the back of the room with perspex for her and other vunerable children to use, she also has been told that she can wear masks if she wants.
    We need to get all kids back to school as education and socialisation is important and maybe some teachers wearing masks will help the vunerable kids feel better if they want to wear them and their parents if they feel the protocols for prevention of infection are suitable for them to return.

    Schools are complicated, we get that as they are the only work environment outside hospitals that have children in them for hours at a time and hospitals already have hygiene protocols implemented as the norm to combat illness.

    It isnt good enough on the one hand just to say oh the virus has left the building just in time for start of term and on the other to say it will be back and we have to learn to live with it. Yes things are improving and we are accelerating our way through the steps for reopening. But if or when this occurs again should we not have learnt from the last three months and come up with guidelines to deal with future episodes/outbreaks instead of announcing bespoke solutions.

    I wonder how long the perspex in shops will stay up past September or the extra ppe for hospitals, or restricitons on entering the chemist or weekly sign in for training for the kids, or will it all come down on 20th July when effectively most restrictions are over. That for me will be interesting, how soon will all the new protections be phased out, social distancing in shops, perspex protection, and if they are keeping them for the next phase why should schools be exempts from having policies and procedures in place?


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  • #3942
    mcsean2163
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    Boggles wrote: »
    The Flu is "seasonal". We also have effective treatments and the occasional workable vaccine for it. Covid 19 is not the flu.

    It is surging in 9 states in the USA who have temperatures that will frequently hit the 30s this week.

    Fine weather is a blessing, because more people go outside, 18 times less likely to get infected outside apparently.

    The flip side of that though, is if gets too hot, it will force people inside to take advantage of air conditioning.


    Fwiw, deaths are not surging in us, maybe due to immune systems being better in the summer months. People can get the influenza virus in the summer months too.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

    Deaths way down.

    IMHO, the best time to restart schools would be now. In the summer. When people are generally more healthy. Anyway, who cares about logic or facts or jobs for private sector workers or the economy.


  • #3943
    Murple
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 337 ✭✭Murple


    seamus wrote: »
    The government will want to organise schools in such a way that children are organised into pods with no social distancing.

    However the teachers' unions will not accept any solution that has not been approved by NPHET.

    This is the standoff. Primary schools are going to have to go back in September, into full classrooms, isolated from other classes. There is no other solution that will work.
    So either NPHET is going to have to explicitly endorse the "pod" concept, or teachers' unions are going to have to accept that NPHET is an advisory body who are not in charge and follow the instructions of the DoE.

    Could you please explain how you would envisage a 'pod' system working in a primary school?


  • #3944
    Murple
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 337 ✭✭Murple


    mcsean2163 wrote: »
    Fwiw, deaths are not surging in us, possibly due to immune systems being better in the summer months. People can get the influenza virus in the summer months too.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

    Deaths way down.

    IMHO, the best time to restart schools would be now. In the summer. When people are generally more healthy. Anyway, who cares about logic or facts or jobs for private sector workers or the economy.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/17/global-report-six-us-states-report-most-ever-new-coronavirus-cases.


    6 US states have reported their highest level of new cases this week- Arizona, Florida, Oregon, Nevada, Oklahoma and Texas.


  • #3945
    mcsean2163
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    Cases are not the same as deaths. For example, more testing will reveal more asymptomatic cases.

    Good to see the deaths per day declining since the April 17th peak despite the surge upward in South America.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


  • #3946
    Murple
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 337 ✭✭Murple


    mcsean2163 wrote: »
    Cases are not the same as deaths. For example, more testing will reveal more asymptomatic cases.

    Good to see the deaths per day declining since the April 17th peak despite the surge upward in South America.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    Thanks for clearing that up. I realise cases are not the same as deaths. Boggles said that Covid-19 was surging, not deaths. Also, it’s an unfortunate consequence that more cases often means more deaths. A surge in cases now can often result in a surge in deaths in a week or two.
    And in the US, they are reducing the number of tests so it will also start to look like the case numbers are declining. Optics are very important and when it is mainly minority groups that are badly affected, it’s easier to cover it up.
    As for asymptomatic transmission, the evidence is not conclusive on that. Any data gathered is from small studies in limited settings. It may not be true for every country. It has been proven that the Covid strain that hit Italy among others was much more aggressive than that which was found in some other countries which were less affected mortality wise.


  • #3947
    Moragle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 107 ✭✭Moragle


    It’s a joke that there’s still no clear guidelines for schools but as I said in a previous post, September is far too far away to reopen schools. Schools need to reopen by the end of phase 4 July 20th at the very latest. I’ve massive sympathy for teachers and if they have to reopen on a phased basis so be it.
    I’m a community pharmacist, not only are me and my staff unable to socially distance while working, the hse didn’t even fund our ppe. From the minute the schools closed it’s been a total struggle for childcare.
    Unfortunately teachers may not be able to properly socially distance while teaching but guess what, nearly everyone who worked through the height of the pandemic couldn’t. Sometimes you just have to get on with things. And our kids deserve better than waiting till September for a day a week in a classroom


  • #3948
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,651 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Moragle wrote: »
    It’s a joke that there’s still no clear guidelines for schools but as I said in a previous post, September is far too far away to reopen schools. Schools need to reopen by the end of phase 4 July 20th at the very latest. I’ve massive sympathy for teachers and if they have to reopen on a phased basis so be it.
    I’m a community pharmacist, not only are me and my staff unable to socially distance while working, the hse didn’t even fund our ppe. From the minute the schools closed it’s been a total struggle for childcare.
    Unfortunately teachers may not be able to properly socially distance while teaching but guess what, nearly everyone who worked through the height of the pandemic couldn’t. Sometimes you just have to get on with things. And our kids deserve better than waiting till September for a day a week in a classroom

    You can say it as often as you like but schools will not be reopening until September. The function of schools is not to provide childcare.


  • #3949
    Moragle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 107 ✭✭Moragle


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    You can say it as often as you like but schools will not be reopening until September. The function of schools is not to provide childcare.

    I know it’s to provide education. Why would that have to wait until September


  • #3950
    Sanjuro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭Sanjuro


    I'm as eager as most parents for our children to return to normality, or some semblence of it. Believe me, my 6 year old is really being affected by the lack of friends, structure and education. But if things are to return to normality, then September is probably the most logical time for it. The start of a regular school year. Things hopefully will run as they should and the extra time between now and then would hopefully give schools the time to put into place whatever they need to to cope with this new normality. The real problem is with the DoE. They are constantly letting schools, teachers and parents down with ambiguous information and inability to lay out a concrete plan.


  • #3951
    Moragle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 107 ✭✭Moragle


    Sanjuro wrote: »
    I'm as eager as most parents for our children to return to normality, or some semblence of it. Believe me, my 6 year old is really being affected by the lack of friends, structure and education. But if things are to return to normality, then September is probably the most logical time for it. The start of a regular school year. Things hopefully will run as they should and the extra time between now and then would hopefully give schools the time to put into place whatever they need to to cope with this new normality. The real problem is with the DoE. They are constantly letting schools, teachers and parents down with ambiguous information and inability to lay out a concrete plan.

    But the problem is you wait until September and it still won’t be sorted. That’s why it has to start sooner to iron out the problems


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  • #3952
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Moragle wrote: »
    It’s a joke that there’s still no clear guidelines for schools but as I said in a previous post, September is far too far away to reopen schools. Schools need to reopen by the end of phase 4 July 20th at the very latest. I’ve massive sympathy for teachers and if they have to reopen on a phased basis so be it.
    I’m a community pharmacist, not only are me and my staff unable to socially distance while working, the hse didn’t even fund our ppe. From the minute the schools closed it’s been a total struggle for childcare.
    Unfortunately teachers may not be able to properly socially distance while teaching but guess what, nearly everyone who worked through the height of the pandemic couldn’t. Sometimes you just have to get on with things. And our kids deserve better than waiting till September for a day a week in a classroom

    So you have ppe but had to buy it yourself since you cannot socially distance? Do you have the perpex screens? Or how to you sd from customers? Normal amount of customers allowed on premises or do you limit them?


  • #3953
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,651 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Moragle wrote: »
    But the problem is you wait until September and it still won’t be sorted. That’s why it has to start sooner to iron out the problems

    Or you could put a proper plan in place for September instead of experimenting now to see what could go wrong.


  • #3954
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    Or you could put a proper plan in place for September instead of experimenting now to see what could go wrong.

    Things could still go wrong. Infections are going up in certain European countries again, just hoping everything will be fine by September is naive. A trial run in June with limited numbers if needed would be much better. So would be couple of weeks in August.


  • #3955
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,445 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    You can say it as often as you like but schools will not be reopening until September. The function of schools is not to provide childcare.

    Amen. I am mentally exhausted from this block of teaching.


  • #3956
    jlm29
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭jlm29


    Murple wrote: »
    Could you please explain how you would envisage a 'pod' system working in a primary school?

    I would imagine that at the very least classes won’t mix with each other, so break times will maybe be staggered for playing in the yard. Maybe they’ll make further pods within classrooms and seat them in groups of 6 or 8 or whatever, with spaces between them, but I couldn’t see that working in younger classes, and it would obviously be dependant on room size, desks etc. Also things like changing places to sit with different kids, my sons class used do it every couple of weeks, that could stop.


  • #3957
    Treppen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,734 ✭✭✭Treppen


    meeeeh wrote: »
    And again there is very little evidence kids are transmitting virus in any significant way. And as fars as I know China closed schools in Beijing not the whole country.

    It's reasonable to expect in future response will be more localised and dealt with aggressive contact tracing and local quarantine. I know examples in another country where a class and the teacher was quarantined for 2 weeks and the rest of school continued as normal.

    So you are thinking they carry the virus but don't transmit it?

    So why did they close schools in Beijing,.. especially when "there is very little evidence kids are transmitting virus in any significant way."


  • #3958
    mcsean2163
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    You can say it as often as you like but schools will not be reopening until September. The function of schools is not to provide childcare.

    That may be your perception but in reality many families rely upon schools when both parents are working. When the social contract is pulled those families may suffer.


  • #3959
    mcsean2163
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭mcsean2163


    Murple wrote: »
    Thanks for clearing that up. I realise cases are not the same as deaths. Boggles said that Covid-19 was surging, not deaths. Also, it’s an unfortunate consequence that more cases often means more deaths. A surge in cases now can often result in a surge in deaths in a week or two.
    And in the US, they are reducing the number of tests so it will also start to look like the case numbers are declining. Optics are very important and when it is mainly minority groups that are badly affected, it’s easier to cover it up.
    As for asymptomatic transmission, the evidence is not conclusive on that. Any data gathered is from small studies in limited settings. It may not be true for every country. It has been proven that the Covid strain that hit Italy among others was much more aggressive than that which was found in some other countries which were less affected mortality wise.

    The WHO issued a statement saying asymptomatic transmission rare. I don't know why you're bringing it up.

    I for one think it is reassuring to some degree that the global daily death rate is declining.


  • #3960
    Dublingirl80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 244 ✭✭Dublingirl80


    Moragle wrote: »
    It’s a joke that there’s still no clear guidelines for schools but as I said in a previous post, September is far too far away to reopen schools. Schools need to reopen by the end of phase 4 July 20th at the very latest. I’ve massive sympathy for teachers and if they have to reopen on a phased basis so be it.
    I’m a community pharmacist, not only are me and my staff unable to socially distance while working, the hse didn’t even fund our ppe. From the minute the schools closed it’s been a total struggle for childcare.
    Unfortunately teachers may not be able to properly socially distance while teaching but guess what, nearly everyone who worked through the height of the pandemic couldn’t. Sometimes you just have to get on with things. And our kids deserve better than waiting till September for a day a week in a classroom

    Don't remember being in a pharmacy without perpex with 20 to 30 kids for 6 hours a day recently.......not the same working in pharmacy for short bursts of interactions through perspex with a handful of coworkers. Maybe it was hard to keep 2m apart every minute of the day with your few coworkers but it is not the same thing as 28 kids squashed in a room all day for 6 hours daily and no hygiene facilities. I wish people in jobs like these would stop claiming they were in the same boat. Yes it was tough working during the worst stage of the lockdown but the reason you could is because your jobs are also low contact jobs that were considered safe. As this goes on you will actually be the lucky ones being able to work in low contact jobs. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a mass exodus from jobs like teaching and other high contact jobs. If this is the level of respect they get they would be better off changing roles rather than sticking with high risk roles and zero respect in unsafe conditions which is what seems to be being proposed by many (not all) posters.


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  • #3961
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,539 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    seamus wrote: »
    This would tally with the data that also says that people who are asymptomatic do not spread the infection.

    No such tally exists, it's simply untrue. Dangerous nonsense the WHO had to walk back on.

    As for evidence that children are not significant spreaders of the disease, the evidence is patchy and inconclusive, primarily because schools were the first to close in this pandemic and the ones that are back are in very different circumstances.


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