How will schools be able to go back in September?

the corpo · 17-06-2020 11:55AM

Most of the supermarkets around here, definitely Lidl, have done a terrific job of managing social distancing with their staff. Can't speak to the customers huddling up in the aisles, but definitely been aware of store managers taking care to manage SD at queues and entrance/exits etc. When staff are on the floor they don't hang about, so I think the low cases highlight good SD practice.

Boggles · 17-06-2020 11:56AM

Paul Fat Beard wrote: »

Honestly?? Your retorts are to :-
Compare me to Trump, or ask me to prove the 'facts' you refer but don't cite don't exist.

You echoed exactly what Trump said at the start at this, but even he has changed course, comparison is warranted.

But again you accused me of stating my opinion as facts, make an accusation, back it up.

Paul Fat Beard wrote: »

Best of all you want my opinion instead of a professor in epidemiology.
My opinion is that the professor in epidemiology knows more than either of us.

His study is faulty to the point of being useless, shady funding and based on an antibody test that had a exceedingly high false positivity rate.

Stay away from celebrity "scientists" making sweeping statements base on questionable studies is my advice.

Stick to ones who have dedicated their lives to fighting infectious diseases and have the accreditation to back it up.

Murple · 17-06-2020 12:04PM

Paul Fat Beard wrote: »

Rough calculations.
I've seen hse quote 500-600 deaths per year in Ireland from the flu Three times that is the current covid deaths.
Below link from the hse refers to 1000 deaths from flu season.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/news/media/pressrel/flu-causes-severe-illness-and-death-in-ireland-every-year.html

I've read and seen a lot of articles indicating a mortality rate of 0.1% which would roughly mean 5,000 deaths in Ireland.
Again, without accurate and widespread testing, nobody knows but the German study I referred to earlier did a sample of 1000 people.

The HSE link below refers to 200-500 people dying from flu each year.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/pubinfo/adult/fluva/

As another poster mention, this is without the precautions that were taken with Covid-19. Over and over again, people in the medical field have stated that this is not like the flu. It is much much worse. We focus so much on death without looking at those who become seriously ill and survive but with likely long term health issues as a consequence.
The death toll is awful without a doubt but many are happy to dismiss it as older people who would die in a few years anyway- not my sentiment but one which I've read over and over again. But if you want to look at it coldly, in terms of the public pocket, which many people seem to relate to better, have widespread infection of the virus and we will likely have more cases of people surviving and needing long term health care. There are plenty of stories of people now leaving hospital after 30,40, 50 days in hospital, often on ventilators or in ICU for much of that time. Again medical insiders have said this is not just a flu. It is much much worse.

nw1dqsv7amx026 · 17-06-2020 12:09PM

Boggles wrote: »

His study is faulty to the point of being useless, shady funding and based on an antibody test that had a exceedingly high false positivity rate.

Stay away from celebrity "scientists" making sweeping statements base on questionable studies is my advice.

Stick to ones who have dedicated their lives to fighting infectious diseases and have the accreditation to back it up.

You watched, analysed and discounted a 30 minute video that I referred to at 11.17am by 11.56am.

Pretty impressive, it took me a few hours to take it in.

Celebrity scientist. - wow.
They give you a PHd after 20,000 posts on boards.ie

Do you know how to perform scientific research?

I'll assume you don't have access to scientific journals so start with Google scholar and have a look at how many papers cite Hendril Streeck

Boggles · 17-06-2020 12:11PM

Paul Fat Beard wrote: »

You watched, analysed and discounted a 30 minute video that I referred to at 11.17am by 11.56am.

No I actually read about his study when it came out and then I read about the criticisms of it.

Again, youtube isn't the best place to educate yourself either.

Edit: Here.

“Implausible figures” – criticism of the Heinsberg study

wirelessdude01 · 17-06-2020 12:16PM

sideswipe wrote: »

Spellings for me and mangahigh. Don’t know much about either as yet. I’m a little apprehensive about doing spellings by touching and swiping a screen, Maybe I’m a bit old school but I think writing them down is more conducive to remembering them. Time will tell I suppose. It will be handy to keep a close eye on progress though.

Fair play to the school paying for MangaHigh. I used it while it was free but don't think it is quite up to scratch as a paid service.

nw1dqsv7amx026 · 17-06-2020 12:17PM

Murple wrote: »

The HSE link below refers to 200-500 people dying from flu each year.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/pubinfo/adult/fluva/

As another poster mention, this is without the precautions that were taken with Covid-19. Over and over again, people in the medical field have stated that this is not like the flu. It is much much worse. We focus so much on death without looking at those who become seriously ill and survive but with likely long term health issues as a consequence.
The death toll is awful without a doubt but many are happy to dismiss it as older people who would die in a few years anyway- not my sentiment but one which I've read over and over again. But if you want to look at it coldly, in terms of the public pocket, which many people seem to relate to better, have widespread infection of the virus and we will likely have more cases of people surviving and needing long term health care. There are plenty of stories of people now leaving hospital after 30,40, 50 days in hospital, often on ventilators or in ICU for much of that time. Again medical insiders have said this is not just a flu. It is much much worse.

Yes it is worse than the flu. And yes you're correct that many are discounting it because it's mostly older people dying, mean of 84 yrs and median 87 yrs, I think.
But I think it's the same with the flu in that it's the older and infirm who ate most at risk.

However, life must go on and children must be educated. They're out of school too long already.

We may never get a cure and it could take years to develops thereaputics.

nw1dqsv7amx026 · 17-06-2020 12:17PM

Murple wrote: »

The HSE link below refers to 200-500 people dying from flu each year.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/pubinfo/adult/fluva/

As another poster mention, this is without the precautions that were taken with Covid-19. Over and over again, people in the medical field have stated that this is not like the flu. It is much much worse. We focus so much on death without looking at those who become seriously ill and survive but with likely long term health issues as a consequence.
The death toll is awful without a doubt but many are happy to dismiss it as older people who would die in a few years anyway- not my sentiment but one which I've read over and over again. But if you want to look at it coldly, in terms of the public pocket, which many people seem to relate to better, have widespread infection of the virus and we will likely have more cases of people surviving and needing long term health care. There are plenty of stories of people now leaving hospital after 30,40, 50 days in hospital, often on ventilators or in ICU for much of that time. Again medical insiders have said this is not just a flu. It is much much worse.

Yes it is worse than the flu. And yes you're correct that many are discounting it because it's mostly older people dying, mean of 84 yrs and median 87 yrs, I think?

But I think it's the same with the flu in that it's the older and infirm who are most at risk.

However, life must go on and children must be educated. They're out of school too long already.

We may never get a cure and it could take years to develops thereaputics.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 17-06-2020 12:23PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

2 cases in Kerry today . Once tourism re-opens , there will be many more .

Sorry to bother you. Is there a link for this story? Can't find

nw1dqsv7amx026 · 17-06-2020 12:34PM

Boggles wrote: »

No I actually read about his study when it came out and then I read about the criticisms of it.

Again, youtube isn't the best place to educate yourself either.

Edit: Here.

“Implausible figures” – criticism of the Heinsberg study

Well at least you're providing a reference this time although I'd never heard of a newspaper from Bandera County in Texas.

nw1dqsv7amx026 · 17-06-2020 12:43PM

Boggles wrote: »

No I actually read about his study when it came out and then I read about the criticisms of it.

Again, youtube isn't the best place to educate yourself either.

Edit: Here.

“Implausible figures” – criticism of the Heinsberg study

The reported critisim refers to problems with testing?
. “These laboratory tests have a high rate of false positive signals, purely technical,” said Drosten.
So false positives with the antibody tests.

This is the crux of the problem, and why we don't know the true mortality rate.

Boggles · 17-06-2020 12:46PM

Paul Fat Beard wrote: »

Well at least you're providing a reference this time although I'd never heard of a newspaper from Bandera County in Texas.

It's a translate from what German media were reporting, I was accommodating you, do you want he original German article?

Either way his test was about as accurate as flipping a coin.

He is an absolute fraud still doubling down on his nonsense that lockdown was unnecessary and herd immunity is the right approach.

Not even that loon in Sweden agrees with that anymore.

khalessi · 17-06-2020 12:48PM

Boggles wrote: »

It's a translate from what German media were reporting, I was accommodating you, do you want he original German article?

Either way his test was about as accurate as flipping a coin.

He is an absolute fraud still doubling down on his nonsense that lockdown was unnecessary and herd immunity is the right approach.

Not even that loon in Sweden agrees with that anymore.

Well Sweden went herd immunity approach and tested a bunch of people in Stockholm and found only 7% immunity and they could not say how long that would last for.

nw1dqsv7amx026 · 17-06-2020 12:49PM

Boggles wrote: »

It's a translate from what German media were reporting, I was accommodating you, do you want he original German article?

Either way his test was about as accurate as flipping a coin.

He is an absolute fraud still doubling down on his nonsense that lockdown was unnecessary and herd immunity is the right approach.

Not even that loon in Sweden agrees with that anymore.

I don't speak German!

Do you? Because if you don't then could come across as a complete spoofer.

Boggles · 17-06-2020 12:50PM

Paul Fat Beard wrote: »

The reported critisim refers to problems with testing?
. “These laboratory tests have a high rate of false positive signals, purely technical,” said Drosten.
So false positives with the antibody tests.

This is the crux of the problem, and why we don't know the true mortality rate.

No, the crux of the issue is you have a dangerous loon openly advocating for a method of infection control that has never been tried let alone been successful based on testing that has the same accuracy as a coin toss.

nw1dqsv7amx026 · 17-06-2020 12:50PM

Boggles wrote: »

It's a translate from what German media were reporting, I was accommodating you, do you want he original German article?

Either way his test was about as accurate as flipping a coin.

He is an absolute fraud still doubling down on his nonsense that lockdown was unnecessary and herd immunity is the right approach.

Not even that loon in Sweden agrees with that anymore.

I don't speak German!

Do you? Because if you don't then you could come across as a complete spoofer.

Boggles · 17-06-2020 12:50PM

Paul Fat Beard wrote: »

I don't speak German!

Do you? Because if you don't then could come across as a complete spoofer.

Jesus Christ.

I give up.

As you were lad, keep on trucking.

Murple · 17-06-2020 12:50PM

Paul Fat Beard wrote: »

Wasn't my comment but i believe Aldi and Lidl released their testing results. With 3,000/4,000 employees they had 6 and 7 positive results.

I don't see how workers in supermarkets could not have been exposed multiple times even with social distancing.

Potentially this could be very good news in that very few Aldi/Lidl workers got sick possibly proving that the majority who get infected don't get very sick

But they weren't operating as normal.
Their cashiers are sitting behind Perspex screens. Many are wearing gloves and they also have hand sanitiser beside them.
They are limiting the numbers that come in at one time.
Customers are largely adhering to social distancing at checkouts.
They were stopping under 18s from coming in on their own and actively discouraging more than one person coming in at a time.
I wouldn't consider any of the employees to be working in very close quarters to anyone for prolonged periods.
In Aldi/Lidl, they generally open a box, put it on the shelf and move on. They are not 'on the floor' to the same extent as other retail staff.
I don't know about other Lidl but my local one is like a warehouse, very spacious and about 10 employees there at any time. It has been noticeably quieter any time I've been in it as many people are availing of delivery from a variety of supermarkets.

Very, very different to normal and very, very different to the conditions and space that is available in many other workplaces, including schools.

khalessi · 17-06-2020 12:51PM

Murple wrote: »

But they weren't operating as normal.
Their cashiers are sitting behind Perspex screens. Many are wearing gloves and they also have hand sanitiser beside them.
They are limiting the numbers that come in at one time.
Customers are largely adhering to social distancing at checkouts.
They were stopping under 18s from coming in on their own and actively discouraging more than one person coming in at a time.
I wouldn't consider any of the employees to be working in very close quarters to anyone for prolonged periods.
In Aldi/Lidl, they generally open a box, put it on the shelf and move on. They are not 'on the floor' to the same extent as other retail staff.
I don't know about other Lidl but my local one is like a warehouse, very spacious and about 10 employees there at any time. It has been noticeably quieter any time I've been in it as many people are availing of delivery from a variety of supermarkets.

Very, very different to normal and very, very different to the conditions and space that is available in many other workplaces, including schools.

That is the same with the 3 lidl and ALdi near me and the Tesco supermarket and local Supervalu. WHile the chemists have people lined up outside and one at a time in store

Boggles · 17-06-2020 12:56PM

khalessi wrote: »

Well Sweden went herd immunity approach and tested a bunch of people in Stockholm and found only 7% immunity and they could not say how long that would last for.

Sweden have needlessly killed 1000s and will continue to so if they don't change tactics.

The state inquiry has all ready begun.

nw1dqsv7amx026 · 17-06-2020 12:56PM

Boggles wrote: »

Jesus Christ.

I give up.

As you were lad, keep on trucking.

Unfortunately I don't think you will give up.

What I would love to know is how you are qualified to call anybody with a PHd a 'loon'.

Many of these doctors, scientists and professors disagree with each other but at least they are all qualified.
They are also smart enough to realise that none of them have the answers yet.

khalessi · 17-06-2020 12:58PM

Boggles wrote: »

Sweden have needlessly killed 1000s and will continue to so if they don't change tactics.

The state inquiry has all ready begun.

Agreed mad tactics for just 7% immunity

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 17-06-2020 12:59PM

Benimar wrote: »

In practice.

Look at the stories around on street seating and betting shops this week. Its pretty clear that anything non compliant will be shut down.

The only thing worse for the publicans than opening with Social Distancing is being forced to close because of non compliance. These are business people and won't be as willing to ignore guidelines as some seem to think.

Ah yes, the same way you can't get a pint in a pub over the past few months.

In theory..... in practice there are lads still able to get a drink in their local.

Pubs can do their best to apply the guidelines but it will be down to the customers to follow them and from peoples behaviour that I've seen in supermarkets (despite the shops best efforts) it will be impossible to maintain once the drink starts flowing.

jrosen · 17-06-2020 01:01PM

As society moves forward the need to social distance will reduce, if businesses want to survive and remain viable they need to be able to turn over customers and clients in an effective manner.

If the government want Ireland to have a better chance at recovery we will have no choice but to open up business as usual and that will include schools.

nw1dqsv7amx026 · 17-06-2020 01:03PM

This is all very interesting but do we educate our children or not.
With 2m social distancing we need four times the classroom size as 1m.
My point is that we cannot accommodate social distancing with schools, public transport or in
hospitals.

kandr10 · 17-06-2020 01:30PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Fair play to the school paying for MangaHigh. I used it while it was free but don't think it is quite up to scratch as a paid service.

I agree. It’s quite challenging and I notice a bit of cluck and see what happens in my students approach. Perhaps good to reinforce topics but I also wouldn’t pay for it. We have paid for mathletics in the past also and found the same with that.

wirelessdude01 · 17-06-2020 01:39PM

kandr10 wrote: »

I agree. It’s quite challenging and I notice a bit of cluck and see what happens in my students approach. Perhaps good to reinforce topics but I also wouldn’t pay for it. We have paid for mathletics in the past also and found the same with that.

I've heard good things abour KhanAcademy but never used it.

khalessi · 17-06-2020 01:55PM

Paul Fat Beard wrote: »

This is all very interesting but do we educate our children or not.
With 2m social distancing we need four times the classroom size as 1m.
My point is that we cannot accommodate social distancing with schools, public transport or in
hospitals.

Yep true and two of them have PPE. Bus drives have always had the perspex screens and hospitals have always had ppe which was increased due to covid19 and will continue to be in use. My dad was in today for a cancer check up and was asked did he need a facemask, but he already had one. He was asked to sterilise hands on way in and out and had temperature checked.

nw1dqsv7amx026 · 17-06-2020 02:22PM

khalessi wrote: »

Yep true and two of them have PPE. Bus drives have always had the perspex screens and hospitals have always had ppe which was increased due to covid19 and will continue to be in use. My dad was in today for a cancer check up and was asked did he need a facemask, but he already had one. He was asked to sterilise hands on way in and out and had temperature checked.

The perspex on the bus will only protect the driver, not the passengers from each other.
17 people on a double decker bus.

As for the hospital, where do our patients wait? Is every bed in the ward 2m.apart. Do you have a one way system in the corridors? Hospitals used to be crowded places.

To accommodate social distancing we need to reduce the number of patients who can be treated, passengers on public transport and kids in education.
And it's not like any of the above was over capacity in the first place.

So unless we magic up buses, trains, drivers, hospital beds, hospitals, teachers and class rooms something has to give.

Even with 1m none of the above is viable??

I'm glad your dad is getting his cancer treatment but I'm afraid there will be many whose cancer goes undetected.

khalessi · 17-06-2020 02:33PM

I put my answers in blue

Paul Fat Beard wrote: »

The perspex on the bus will only protect the driver, not the passengers from each other.
17 people on a double decker bus.

Hence new programe from government promoting mask wearing in crowded places
As for the hospital, where do our patients wait?
My dad had to wait in his car but he went for a walk instead and was advised to come 15 minutes before appointment to allow time for temp and handsanitiszer. When I attended Crumlin last week I was in waiting room which had implemented social distancing through its seating

Is every bed in the ward 2m.apart.
When I worked in hospitals the curtains could be used to divide beds and there was about 6 foot between each bed in a 6 bed ward more in semi private and private had single rooms.

Do you have a one way system in the corridors?
I was in Crumlin Hospital last week and they have a walking system in place as well as hand sanitising on way in and out. You follow the lines on the corridors and stay on one side only. Most of the staff had mask and the doctors sodical distanced when speaking one to one re condition visit was based on.The corridors in hospitals generally are wide to allow for two bed trolleys either direction.

Hospitals used to be crowded places.

To accommodate social distancing we need to reduce the number of patients who can be treated, passengers on public transport and kids in education.
And it's not like any of the above was over capacity in the first place.

So unless we magic up buses, trains, drivers, hospital beds, hospitals, teachers and class rooms something has to give.

Even with 1m none of the above is viable??

I'm glad your dad is getting his cancer treatment but I'm afraid there will be many whose cancer goes undetected.
Thank you. GPs are still open for cancer diagnosis and you will be fastracked if cancer diagnosis and treatment needed. People just have to go to the gp or hospital

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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