Britain commemorating VE day

Kermit.de.frog · 08-05-2020 10:06pm #1

Don't want this to come across the wrong way but will they ever move on?

I'm all for commemoration of important events and sacrifice but no other country goes that mad for remembering the World Wars.

It seemed so jingoistic and OTT today (but for the virus probably would have been more impressive) and it seems every month now there is some commemoration or other.

Part of me thinks it's good because so many are at the end of their lives but another part of me thinks it's OTT and even forced (the poppies in November).

Everywhere else seems far more reserved about it with remembrance.

With Britain it seems like it's something deeper to them than just remembrance.

Jizique · 08-05-2020 10:11pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Don't want this to come across the wrong way but will they ever move on?

I'm all for commemoration of important events and sacrifice but no other country goes that mad for remembering the World Wars.

It seemed so jingoistic and OTT today (but for the virus probably would have been more impressive) and it seems every month now there is some commemoration or other.

Part of me thinks it's good because so many are at the end of their lives but another part of me thinks it's OTT and even forced (the poppies in November).

Everywhere else seems far more reserved about it with remembrance.

With Britain it seems like it's something deeper to them than just remembrance.

They just can’t let go - I don’t remember it being such a big deal when I was younger, even under Thatcher, although I never really lived there.
There was always a bit of “2 world wars and one World Cup” around the soccer hools, but the whole poppy thing seems to have been taken to a new era.
Obviously Brexit has taken it to another level but they really do need to move on at this stage. It is the refuge of the rabid nationalist.

BrookieD · 08-05-2020 10:20pm

Jizique wrote: »

They just can’t let go - I don’t remember it being such a big deal when I was younger, even under Thatcher, although I never really lived there.
There was always a bit of “2 world wars and one World Cup” around the soccer hools, but the whole poppy thing seems to have been taken to a new era.
Obviously Brexit has taken it to another level but they really do need to move on at this stage. It is the refuge of the rabid nationalist.

It is important and rightfully so.. Thousands of men and women laid there life on the line to give you and I the freedom we enjoy today and most today cannot even stay at home and watch TV for the good of others and themselves, jesus wept

Also, please don't even, Ireland scored a goal 30odd years ago against England and its dragged up any chance you get.... wind it in. :rolleyes:

Zebra3 · 08-05-2020 10:20pm

As Robert Fisk pointed out, the British have an unhealthy obsession with WWII because it's one of the few wars that they can see themselves as the good guys in.

Even then it's selective history. Writing out their genocide of millions in India from the history books.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 08-05-2020 10:23pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Don't want this to come across the wrong way but will they ever move on?

I'm all for commemoration of important events and sacrifice but no other country goes that mad for remembering the World Wars.

It seemed so jingoistic and OTT today (but for the virus probably would have been more impressive) and it seems every month now there is some commemoration or other.

Part of me thinks it's good because so many are at the end of their lives but another part of me thinks it's OTT and even forced (the poppies in November).

Everywhere else seems far more reserved about it with remembrance.

With Britain it seems like it's something deeper to them than just remembrance.

Do you feel the same way abour ST Patrick's Day?

Unclebumble · 08-05-2020 10:24pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Don't want this to come across the wrong way but will they ever move on?

I'm all for commemoration of important events and sacrifice but no other country goes that mad for remembering the World Wars.

It seemed so jingoistic and OTT today (but for the virus probably would have been more impressive) and it seems every month now there is some commemoration or other.

Part of me thinks it's good because so many are at the end of their lives but another part of me thinks it's OTT and even forced (the poppies in November).

Everywhere else seems far more reserved about it with remembrance.

With Britain it seems like it's something deeper to them than just remembrance.

Just wondering why do you care ?
It’s on UK tv channels and In UK newspapers - it’s not aimed at you or Ireland.
I take it you haven’t checked out French or US Media?
I haven’t but wonder if the same is there?

I know there was meant to be a massive (and I mean massive) parade in Moscow tomorrow with Putin and Macron attending but this has been cancelled.

I could be wrong but just seems this thread is another Poppy bashing thread but started earlier than normal.

Central Services · 08-05-2020 10:24pm

The over-celebration helps drown out the annoying fact that it was the Soviet Union that beat Germany.

Montage of Feck · 08-05-2020 10:26pm

It's the 75th anniversary of monumental a event, why shouldn't it be marked? Especially as it will probably be the last major anniversary to be attended by participants.
Don't mix it up with the annual jingo fest that remembrance day has become.

Jizique · 08-05-2020 10:26pm

BrookieD wrote: »

It is important and rightfully so.. Thousands of men and women laid there life on the line to give you and I the freedom we enjoy today and most today cannot even stay at home and watch TV for the good of others and themselves, jesus wept

Also, please don't even, Ireland scored a goal 30odd years ago against England and its dragged up any chance you get.... wind it in. :rolleyes:

It may be important but not when they try to portray it as Victory over Europe day and brag it down to petty nationalism instead of remembering the role played by all other European (and American) allies in liberating the Germans.
I never mentioned football or rugby.
It is well captured in this tweet I saw today from an Australian trade expert (originally Russian, living in Geneva)
https://mobile.twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1258353865658896385

SCOOP 64 · 08-05-2020 10:27pm

Don't know why it bothers anyone over here.

Bass Reeves · 08-05-2020 10:29pm

Central Services wrote: »

The over-celebration helps drown out the annoying fact that it was the Soviet Union that beat Germany.

Rubbish

MoonUnit75 · 08-05-2020 10:38pm

I couldn’t begrudge them VE day. When you think about the events that are just now starting to fade from living memory like fire bombing cities almost every night, so many deaths and the entire country mobilised and under threat.

Drifter50 · 08-05-2020 10:41pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Don't want this to come across the wrong way but will they ever move on?

I'm all for commemoration of important events and sacrifice but no other country goes that mad for remembering the World Wars.

It seemed so jingoistic and OTT today (but for the virus probably would have been more impressive) and it seems every month now there is some commemoration or other.

Part of me thinks it's good because so many are at the end of their lives but another part of me thinks it's OTT and even forced (the poppies in November).

Everywhere else seems far more reserved about it with remembrance.

With Britain it seems like it's something deeper to them than just remembrance.

There is so much more to this and it is important especially for the thousands of sons, daughters, relations whose family members were lost in the war. Both my parents were Irish and joined the British Armed Forces.
There was a commemoration ceremony in Paris today, that was treated with the reverence it deserved. The one in Moscow was cancelled. Both my parents clearly remembered the day the war in Europe ended and the huge sense of relief that day.Poppies are a major event for me in November and will remain so. It will be interesting to see the level of respect shown by the Americans for VJ day in a few weeks

If it bothers you leave it alone for everyone else and let them mark it in their own way. Just remember if it was`nt for the British sacrifices and standing firm against the Nazi`s, we might all be still under authoritarian rule

Joe_ Public · 08-05-2020 10:45pm

I like these commemorations purely for the opportunity it gives to see and hear these veterans for what is likely to be the last time for several of them. Never tire of listening to their stories and always humbling to hear what they went through. The lessons are right there if we ever want to take them on board.

Zebra3 · 08-05-2020 10:45pm

Sure as hell won't be any commemorations for the millions Britain took freedom from and murdered around the globe.

riffmongous · 08-05-2020 10:46pm

Do they actually commemorate anything from the last 75 years? Russians too

Ipso · 08-05-2020 10:46pm

I wonder how long until "Hitler wasn't that bad" appears.

super_furry · 08-05-2020 10:47pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Don't want this to come across the wrong way but will they ever move on?

It's all they've got. They're a faded nation living on past glories who have been relegated to the status of lapdog to the big boys.

yosser hughes · 08-05-2020 10:50pm

super_furry wrote: »

It's all they've got. They're a faded nation living on past glories who have been relegated to the status of lapdog to the big boys.

How do you feel about Ireland's role during WW2?

Duff · 08-05-2020 10:50pm

Ipso wrote: »

I wonder how long until "Hitler wasn't that bad" appears.

Oh worse than Hitler. You wouldn't find Hitler playing jungle music at 3 o'clock in the morning.

Ben Done · 08-05-2020 10:50pm

The German President's speech to mark the day is well worth reading, particularly as some English papers were calling it 'Victory Over Europe' day..

https://www.bundespraesident.de/SharedDocs/Reden/EN/Frank-Walter-Steinmeier/Reden/2020/05/200508-75th-anniversary-World-War-II.html

JohnnyFlash · 08-05-2020 10:50pm

Best move this to the current affairs forum so the regulars can do their back and forth thing.

MoonUnit75 · 08-05-2020 10:52pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Sure as hell won't be any commemorations for the millions Britain took freedom from and murdered around the globe.

They aren’t all that remarkable in the historical context. Lots of other countries were as bad and many a lot worse. Belgians, French, Spanish, Dutch etc. You could go on and on.

super_furry · 08-05-2020 10:55pm

yosser hughes wrote: »

How do you feel about Ireland's role during WW2?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjJYYaeFNmQ

Edgware · 08-05-2020 10:57pm

Central Services wrote: »

The over-celebration helps drown out the annoying fact that it was the Soviet Union that beat Germany.

The Soviets only came to the Allies side after Hitler reneged on the Molotov Ribbentropp Pact and invaded the Soviet Union. Up until then they were busy grabbing half of Poland and murdering 20000 Poles at Katyn Wood.
The usual gob****es here will never accept the sacrifice made by the British. Probably too busy reading the fishwifes speech at the Nazi lovers commemoration.

riffmongous · 08-05-2020 11:04pm

Edgware wrote: »

The Soviets only came to the Allies side after Hitler reneged on the Molotov Ribbentropp Pact and invaded the Soviet Union. Up until then they were busy grabbing half of Poland and murdering 20000 Poles at Katyn Wood.
The usual gob****es here will never accept the sacrifice made by the British. Probably too busy reading the fishwifes speech at the Nazi lovers commemoration.

And of course the British leadership only came to the anti Nazi side after first sacrificing the Germans, the Austrians, the Spanish and the Czechoslovaks. They were happy enough to let the others die until they finally realised it was coming for them too.

joe40 · 08-05-2020 11:05pm

Jizique wrote: »

They just can’t let go - I don’t remember it being such a big deal when I was younger, even under Thatcher, although I never really lived there.
There was always a bit of “2 world wars and one World Cup” around the soccer hools, but the whole poppy thing seems to have been taken to a new era.
Obviously Brexit has taken it to another level but they really do need to move on at this stage. It is the refuge of the rabid nationalist.

It's the last time Britain was important in the world stage, they want to hold onto that.
They were still an imperial nation at the time, keeping the empire together was still a major priority.

MoonUnit75 · 08-05-2020 11:10pm

riffmongous wrote: »

And of course the British leadership only came to the anti Nazi side after first sacrificing the Germans, the Austrians, the Spanish and the Czechoslovaks. They were happy enough to let the others die until they finally realised it was coming for them too.

They weren’t the European police force. All countries except Germany wanted to avoid restarting the Great War. The force they sent to France was not half-hearted.

Pauliedragon · 08-05-2020 11:12pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Don't want this to come across the wrong way but will they ever move on?

I'm all for commemoration of important events and sacrifice but no other country goes that mad for remembering the World Wars.

It seemed so jingoistic and OTT today (but for the virus probably would have been more impressive) and it seems every month now there is some commemoration or other.

Part of me thinks it's good because so many are at the end of their lives but another part of me thinks it's OTT and even forced (the poppies in November).

Everywhere else seems far more reserved about it with remembrance.

With Britain it seems like it's something deeper to them than just remembrance.

And yet our national day is to celebrate a Welsh guy beating the crap out of snakes with a stick. Each to their own let people celebrate what they want.

riffmongous · 08-05-2020 11:14pm

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

They weren’t the European police force. All countries except Germany wanted to avoid restarting the Great War. The force they sent to France was not half-hearted.

Hold on now, they acted like they were. The Czechs weren't even invited to the talks that saw their own country sacrificed. It was the British who led the import embargos on Republican Spain while turning a blind eye to direct German and Italian involvement

PCeeeee · 08-05-2020 11:15pm

Edgware wrote: »

The Soviets only came to the Allies side after Hitler reneged on the Molotov Ribbentropp Pact and invaded the Soviet Union. Up until then they were busy grabbing half of Poland and murdering 20000 Poles at Katyn Wood.
The usual gob****es here will never accept the sacrifice made by the British. Probably too busy reading the fishwifes speech at the Nazi lovers commemoration.

One can accept the huge sacrifice and the bloody minded and terrific bravery of UK taking a stand against the Nazis while also understanding that the war was largely won elsewhere.

Any casual glance at the casualties sustained is informative. Churchill himself was clear in 1940 (and indeed before) about what he felt would be needed to defeat the nazis '

'if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old'

There is no question that the war was won by the USSR and latterly by the US. That is in no way to down play the role of the UK, there is really no other interpreptaion possible.

Your Face · 08-05-2020 11:24pm

I have to admit - the British making themselves out to be defenders of democracy and 'fair play' always irks me a bit given their history.

Straight after WW2 they were trying to further the cause of their empire at the expense of self-determination.
Another thing I find is that lot of their commemorations come across as triumphalist and you'd swear they never had allies in any war.

Anyway, at least there is relative peace now.

pgj2015 · 08-05-2020 11:25pm

BrookieD wrote: »

It is important and rightfully so.. Thousands of men and women laid there life on the line to give you and I the freedom we enjoy today and most today cannot even stay at home and watch TV for the good of others and themselves, jesus wept

Also, please don't even, Ireland scored a goal 30odd years ago against England and its dragged up any chance you get.... wind it in. :rolleyes:

Exactly, the British did it all so Irish people could be free:pac:

JL555 · 08-05-2020 11:28pm

Jizique wrote: »

It may be important but not when they try to portray it as Victory over Europe day and brag it down to petty nationalism instead of remembering the role played by all other European (and American) allies in liberating the Germans.
I never mentioned football or rugby.
It is well captured in this tweet I saw today from an Australian trade expert (originally Russian, living in Geneva)
https://mobile.twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1258353865658896385

Victory over Europe day? Good God man.. and as for the rest of your comment...words fail me.

looksee · 08-05-2020 11:30pm

Lord there is some serious insecurity showing here.

There is a solution you know. Cancel any tv subscriptions that include BBC, don't buy British newspapers and stick to RTE, then you won't be upset.

policarp · 08-05-2020 11:33pm

The Australians and New Zealanders celebrate Anzac day.

PCeeeee · 08-05-2020 11:35pm

looksee wrote: »

Lord there is some serious insecurity showing here.

There is a solution you know. Cancel any tv subscriptions that include BBC, don't buy British newspapers and stick to RTE, then you won't be upset.

Absolutely. The opinions of others only upset you if you hear hear them.

Why are you here?

Mongfinder General · 08-05-2020 11:36pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Do you feel the same way abour ST Patrick's Day?

I ****ing hate Paddy's Day. National embarrassment.

Manach · 08-05-2020 11:36pm

Having a slight interest in history, one can talk about desesive turning points in world events. This is one of the key ones. If the British had gone down another path which they could easily have done, then a Nazi Reich could have domintated Europe, if not for a 1000 years, then at least for many generations.

MoonUnit75 · 08-05-2020 11:38pm

riffmongous wrote: »

Hold on now, they acted like they were. The Czechs weren't even invited to the talks that saw their own country sacrificed. It was the British who led the import embargos on Republican Spain while turning a blind eye to direct German and Italian involvement

My understanding of the British policy on Spain was that they felt the Republican government was losing its control over a possible peasant revolt within its own ranks on the one hand and its appeasement of Germany and Italy on the other.

MoonUnit75 · 08-05-2020 11:43pm

PCeeeee wrote: »

One can accept the huge sacrifice and the bloody minded and terrific bravery of UK taking a stand against the Nazis while also understanding that the war was largely won elsewhere.

Any casual glance at the casualties sustained is informative. Churchill himself was clear in 1940 (and indeed before) about what he felt would be needed to defeat the nazis '

'if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old'

There is no question that the war was won by the USSR and latterly by the US. That is in no way to down play the role of the UK, there is really no other interpreptaion possible.

Well if you want to go down that route, there was no other staging ground for a US landing on the western coast of mainland Europe, if the British airforce had collapsed and the planned invasion of Britain went ahead then the outcome of the war is very, very far from being a clear cut thing. If Hitler had all the African and Western Front forces in Russia in 1942 he could easily have seized the oil fields in Russia and solved the problem that really led to Germany’s downfall.

policarp · 08-05-2020 11:50pm

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

My understanding of the British policy on Spain was that they felt the Republican government was losing its control over a possible peasant revolt within its own ranks on the one hand and its appeasement of Germany and Italy on the other.

Plus Franco was allied to Hitler and Mussolini and changed the time zone from GMT to CET to piss the rest of Europe off.

PCeeeee · 08-05-2020 11:50pm

MoonUnit75 wrote: »

Well if you want to go down that route, there was no other staging ground for a US landing on the coast of mainland Europe, if the British airforce had collapsed and the planned invasion of Britain went ahead then the outcome of the war is very, very far from being a clear cut thing. If Hitler had all the African and Western Front forces in Russia in 1942 he could easily have seized the oil fields in Russia and solved the problem that really led to Germany’s downfall.

I'm not sure what route you belive I'm taking. Manach above makes his point quite well. A similar one to you if I understand you.

It doesn't really address what I'm attempting to say (IMO of course). The UK could not won the war alone and it was won elsewhere. That's not to say events could not have unfolded differently. But they didn't.

Das Reich · 09-05-2020 12:09am

Germany, France and Japan were the bigger losers of the war, and in smaller extent England and Italy. European powers were forced to decolonize and to stay in the shaddow of URSS and USA. If not by the efforts of Mussolini in 1938 to stop the war it would end much early, with Soviet Union wiping Europe and forcing their regime just after Stalin sent to Gulags most of its generals.

The One Doctor · 09-05-2020 12:16am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

With Britain it seems like it's something deeper to them than just remembrance.

Yes, it's the last time the UK did anything worthwhile for other countries.

da_miser · 09-05-2020 12:23am

A country hanging on to a moment of glory in its past as it slides into a world of hurt of its own making.

Kermit.de.frog · 09-05-2020 12:27am

For the record they should of course commemorate victory.

VE day is among the most worthy because Britain did stand alone for so long.

I do take issue with the likes of Dunkirk though which was arguably the most humiliating military defeat in a major war in history.

The follow on would see Britain beaten to a pulp and to all intents and purposes defeated by the German war machine until the Americans entered the war.

I get it from a 'raise the spirits' viewpoint at the time after the rescue but there is so much myth injected in to these events that historical fact gets left behind.

Dr. Bre · 09-05-2020 12:28am

It’s to make them still feel relevant . Good luck to them. They no longer the huge empire they were

da_miser · 09-05-2020 12:36am

"Boys if you don't defeat those Germans, Pakistani rape gangs wont be free to roam north England and districts of English cities wont be run under Sharia law, so go out there and bash the Bosch" - Winston Churchill 1945
VE day celebrations in the UK is a country that pines for a better time, as bad as the war was..........................

Quantum Erasure · 09-05-2020 12:38am

Central Services wrote: »

The over-celebration helps drown out the annoying fact that it was the Soviet Union that beat Germany.

Putin congratulates British PM Johnson on Victory Day
https://tass.com/society/1154333

Putin also "expressed confidence that the memory of the combat brotherhood of the war era would help develop constructive Russian-British dialogue and cooperation in the fight against threats and challenges of our time."

da_miser · 09-05-2020 12:44am

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Putin congratulates British PM Johnson on Victory Day
https://tass.com/society/1154333

Putin also "expressed confidence that the memory of the combat brotherhood of the war era would help develop constructive Russian-British dialogue and cooperation in the fight against threats and challenges of our time."

All well and good, but last year in celebration of the defeat of Germany, Russia was not invited, Germany was , but not Russia, something to thing about?

Britain commemorating VE day

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